Best Barrel Sleeve Material?

Hi Y'all,

When talking about sleeving barrels (i.e. epoxying a sleeve to the barrel to make it stiffer), what is the "best material"? I'm particularly concerned about exacerbating any temperature sensitivity.

I know carbon fiber is the go to, but is there any particular reason why that is chosen over aluminum or steel? Aside from weight of course. What is the ideal gap size between the barrel/liner and sleeve? I know fitment needs to be close but not so tight as to prevent epoxy from filling the gap.

Thinking about adding a barrel sleeve to a rifle and before I go carbon fiber as I have in the past I wanted to see what other thoughts were out there.

Thanks,
Nico
 
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Carbonfiber is alot stiffer than steel or alu. Biy your tube. Put some steel or alu on lathe and make centering pushings. Drill bottom hole to carbon tubing and epoxy insert on that hole. Then drill hole to other end of tubing and squueze epoxy through untill all is out and you only get epoxy out from that open hole. Put it on oven to harden it to epoxys manufacturers max streght.
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Nic, the REALLY SMART Engineers at FX decided that gluing the CF sleeve on the liner was ZERO BENEFIT as long as the fit was snug. The new FX Panthera (600 and 700mm) all come with a CF sleeve over the liner and the fit is very snug - but NOT glued. Seems to work as I went 25/25 at the recent Long-Range Challenge (125 to 260 yards) in OR this past weekend. Second place was 18/25. Not only does it make the barrel stiffer, but it also negates the need to index the barrel.
 
Nic, the REALLY SMART Engineers at FX decided that gluing the CF sleeve on the liner was ZERO BENEFIT as long as the fit was snug. The new FX Panthera (600 and 700mm) all come with a CF sleeve over the liner and the fit is very snug - but NOT glued. Seems to work as I went 25/25 at the recent Long-Range Challenge (125 to 260 yards) in OR this past weekend. Second place was 18/25. Not only does it make the barrel stiffer, but it also negates the need to index the barrel.


I do agree that epoxying the sleeve on has very small benefit but certainly not ZERO benefit. IMHO epoxying the sleeve on locks in the position and prevent any sort of movement like twisting during changing of the barrel. Maynot be a huge benefit but for people who are OCD and obsessive about eliminating any variable it's a no brainer, no movement=no variable. FX won't epoxy the sleeve on because it is another step in manufacturing process that's labor intensive and time consuming.

To OP: carbon is very inert in temperature shift, plus MUCH stiffer structurally compares to any metal at the same weight. It's always a bad idea to bond 2 different type of metals together as most metals have big delta when it comes to thermal expansion.
 
In the case of the FX liner, I would imagine that, over time, the epoxy would develop a lot of cracks as a consequence of the movements encountered during firing.


Certainly plausible depending on the Epoxy used, not all epoxy are created equal. I use steel reinforced epoxy or quick steel which is know to be very strong, high temp(600F) tolerance and lasts a very very long time.
 
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Certainly plausible depending on the Epoxy used, not all epoxy are created equal. I use steel reinforced epoxy or quick steel which is know to be very strong, high temp(600F) tolerance and lasts a very very long time.
I’ve always been a little skeptical about epoxies that cite steel as a strengthening additive. After all, steel is a crystalline substance. Perhaps adding charcoal would make it diamond reinforced?
 
I’ve always been a little skeptical about epoxies that cite steel as a strengthening additive. After all, steel is a crystalline substance. Perhaps adding charcoal would make it diamond reinforced?

There are carbon fiber reinforced epoxy also, I just don't have it on hand or I would have used that. Quick steel was in my tool draw from my off-road days.
 
Nic, the REALLY SMART Engineers at FX decided that gluing the CF sleeve on the liner was ZERO BENEFIT as long as the fit was snug. The new FX Panthera (600 and 700mm) all come with a CF sleeve over the liner and the fit is very snug - but NOT glued. Seems to work as I went 25/25 at the recent Long-Range Challenge (125 to 260 yards) in OR this past weekend. Second place was 18/25. Not only does it make the barrel stiffer, but it also negates the need to index the barrel.
Mike, that's good info (and awesome shooting), thank you! How snug is "very snug"? Like press fit snug? Any idea of the OD of the barrel in relation to the ID of the tube?? What is a good differential to shoot for when I'm picking out this tube?
 
Same size, like maybe use a rubber mallet to put it on. Otherwise you'd need a spacer or that epoxy to fill the gap. I got one for my Avenger that's 11mm ID x 13mm OD I believe and the thing is that there is a nominal size especially with the ebay carbon fiber so I lucked out that mine was tight but makes me wonder if it were tiny bit tighter to where I did have to use a mallet, what would that do for groups. Not bad now, just wonder what improvements are available. I think I tried putting regular tape on the OD of the barrel to see if I could take up any extra room but it stripped off when putting on the tube so I guess its close enough. Lol

Mine is in the shroud over the barrel then the OD of carbon fiber sleeve has a spacer that's wrapped with aluminum duct tape (like for the gas dryer exhaust) so it is very tight to the ID of the shroud. I put a layer, tested, then put a layer, tested, etc til it was tight. Might be some shrinkage so that's why some people put concentric rings of carbon fiber tube in there to make it so OD of barrel is touching ID of shroud through carbon fiber.

See attached thread by Skeeter Hawk.
https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/air-venturi-avenger-barrel-stiffening.1236328/

I think his idea is better than my current set up but the difference is my spacers are actually ported through so they let air go by so the shroud still is useful for sound deadening. I think I may try something else eventually. But I have 4 spacers so it is supported well enough for now. Carbon Fiber doesn't go to the muzzle so I can use the Buck Rail adapter to support the barrel end.

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Mike, that's good info (and awesome shooting), thank you! How snug is "very snug"? Like press fit snug? Any idea of the OD of the barrel in relation to the ID of the tube?? What is a good differential to shoot for when I'm picking out this tube?
Tight enough that it slides in with some ooomph, but not too tight you need tools. Not sure of measurements. It needs to be fit individually.
 
Regarding carbon fiber versus steel, bear in mind that when you search on a phrase like “stiffness of carbon fiber compared to steel”, most of what you are likely to see pertains to carbon fiber as a raw material, whereas the actual stiffness of a finished CF tube will depend on a variety of factors. Chief among them:

1. the orientation of the fibers – e.g. woven vs unidirectional
2. the type of fibers – low / intermediate / high / ultra-high modulus fibers
3. the epoxy that bonds them together - ratio of carbon fiber to epoxy

So there’s quite a bit of variability possible. When speaking of the stiffness of a material, the property of interest is the modulus of elasticity. Hereafter I will abbreviate this property as simply _modulus_ but you may want to simply substitute the word _stiffness_, since in this context we are comparing materials of the same size and shape.

Common or “standard” carbon fiber, to the extent there is such a thing, has a modulus that is basically the same as mild steel (~200 GPa). However when processed into the typical woven arrangement (a 0/90 layup in the industry terms), it will have a modulus only about 1/3 that of steel (~70 GPa). At the same time, the carbon fiber will only weigh 1/5 that of steel so the stiffness-to-weight ratio (its specific modulus) is still better than steel. But if stiffness is the paramount goal and you don’t care about the weight, you are better off with a solid steel barrel.

With that said, there are some carbon fiber compositions whose modulus exceeds that of steel, using ultra-high modulus (UHM) fibers oriented in a unidirectional layup. Maybe some other magic sauce in the mix. If memory serves, they can get up to 1.5x the modulus of steel. As expected, these are more expensive and are marketed as such.

Regarding the question of temperature sensitivity, carbon fiber does have a very low coefficient of thermal expansion. How much depends on its construction but for the common woven type, it’s about 1/8 that of steel…i.e. steel is 8x higher. That’s the motivation behind the practice of using Belleville washers to tension a barrel to a carbon-fiber tube. A series stack of spring washers essentially takes up the elongation / shrink of the steel to maintain a relatively constant amount of tension.

With all that said, a few questions may be swirling in your brain:

1. How much stiffness is enough?
2. What kind of improvement can I expect if I do X and Y?
3. Do I really need to worry about thermal expansion?
4. Where does “more is better” slam hard against the wall of diminishing returns?

Well, those are much harder questions to answer. They scoop up a bunch of other considerations like cost and effort, the type of shooting you’ll be doing, the degree of precision you want, and so forth. I don’t think we have anything approaching a consensus or a cookbook-type recipe to follow. Still, I do hope the above information is helpful as a starting point.
 
It all seems silly, really. The fact that after hundreds of years of barrel design—which has arguably been quite perfected already—us airgunners are for some reason resorting to o-rings, sleeves, pottings, and glues to keep barrels stiff and straight and consistent. It's almost like we create problems just so we can solve them.

Maybe if the industry moved away from these liner toys—which are starting to seem like marketing wank more than anything else—and back to actual barrels, we would be better off.

Just my thoughts...as I struggled with this exact thing while trying to tune me new M3.
 
Last year - I have personally not epoxied the CG sleeve to my 700 liners but wrap a liner with a teflon tape and push it like that into the sleeve. And I am very glad that I chose that path.
I shot rings probably well over 8K since I made that setup on my MK2, both pellets and slugs combined.
And last week I wanted to test some of my new ideas how can I improve my 100 meters score table, and I removed the CF sleeve and put back the orings.
After some 1000 shots when I am comparing the cards I can say I like the results more from a floating liner. These are STX-A and Superior Heavy .25x700.
Tomorrow I was going to test the orings with .25x600, two liners again.
I would suggest you shoot all posible scenarios first you could come up with - before you epoxy.
 
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It all seems silly, really. The fact that after hundreds of years of barrel design—which has arguably been quite perfected already—us airgunners are for some reason resorting to o-rings, sleeves, pottings, and glues to keep barrels stiff and straight and consistent. It's almost like we create problems just so we can solve them.

Maybe if the industry moved away from these liner toys—which are starting to seem like marketing wank more than anything else—and back to actual barrels, we would be better off.

Just my thoughts...as I struggled with this exact thing while trying to tune me new M3.
Regarding the liner toys, which is a common thing to be attacked, it’s notable that there are just as many threads (and gizmos for sale) involving switching actual barrels with FX liners. Most common for the Leshiy 2, but there are other makes and models that get this treatment. Ultimately, we just enjoy tinkering.
 
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Last year - I have personally not epoxied the CG sleeve to my 700 liners but wrap a liner with a teflon tape and push it like that into the sleeve. And I am very glad that I chose that path.
I shot rings probably well over 8K since I made that setup on my MK2, both pellets and slugs combined.
And last week I wanted to test some of my new ideas how can I improve my 100 meters score table, and I removed the CF sleeve and put back the orings.
After some 1000 shots when I am comparing the cards I can say I like the results more from a floating liner. These are STX-A and Superior Heavy .25x700.
Tomorrow I was going to test the orings with .25x600, two liners again.
I would suggest you shoot all posible scenarios first you could come up with - before you epoxy.
What method are you using to (Test the orings) are you reinstalling the factory rings or testing other configuration and or number of orings?.