Burris XTR Signiture Ring insert question

Hi all, first post.

my apologies I've somehow posted in General Discussion

I have an old Theoben Rapid running 35ft/lbs, over the last 20 years had a few issues with scopes getting near the limits of elevation , went through the process of elimination scope, mounts, new barrel and finally concluded that I need 35-40 moa of elevation at 50yds.

I've bought some XTR signatures to get the scope centered, I understand the fitting instructions..mostly but it's possibly what they dont.

my question is...are the inserts directional?

The correction numbers are on one end of the insert do those need to face in the direction of adjustment?

adjjust22.1619207009.jpg


for example as shown above 25moa

[ <5---] [----20>] 

many thanks


 
I would bet that it does matter, because the outside of those inserts look flat. I don't have any of the XTR's but I have a few sets of the Z rings and they are rounded across the outside surface producing a sort of "ball joint" fit. Those aren't directional and the "marking" is centered. I would verify with Burris but I bet those that are flat on the ouside are directional.
 
It doesn't matter. The burris pos-align inserts that come with the XTR Signature rings are the same as those used in the Signature Z rings. There isn't a "flat side" they're concentric. The difference is on the inside that allows for adjusting MOA and/or adjusting your scope poa to poi.

Incorrect. I have one of the Signature Z inserts in my hand. It is ROUNDED on the outside surface of the insert. The picture above SHOWS the OUTSIDE surface of the XTR inserts and they ARE NOT ROUNDED. They are flat. Visibly different. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are directional, but they absolutely are not "the same". To OP, if you want to know the correct answer, contact Burris.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12745540/re-burris-signature-rings

Look at this discussion and read the 7th post down by dogcatcher223. It clearly notes the difference in shape of the inserts between XTR and Z. He is correct because as stated I can see the picture above of the XTR and I have a Z in my hand. They are not "the same". It doesn't state whether they are directional or not. Maybe so, maybe not. My Z inserts are not directional. Don't know about the XTR's. Burris can tell you.
 
It doesn't matter. The burris pos-align inserts that come with the XTR Signature rings are the same as those used in the Signature Z rings. There isn't a "flat side" they're concentric. The difference is on the inside that allows for adjusting MOA and/or adjusting your scope poa to poi.

Incorrect. I have one of the Signature Z inserts in my hand. It is ROUNDED on the outside surface of the insert. The picture above SHOWS the OUTSIDE surface of the XTR inserts and they ARE NOT ROUNDED. They are flat. Visibly different. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are directional, but they absolutely are not "the same". To OP, if you want to know the correct answer, contact Burris.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12745540/re-burris-signature-rings

Look at this discussion and read the 7th post down by dogcatcher223. It clearly notes the difference in shape of the inserts between XTR and Z. He is correct because as stated I can see the picture above of the XTR and I have a Z in my hand. They are not "the same". It doesn't state whether they are directional or not. Maybe so, maybe not. My Z inserts are not directional. Don't know about the XTR's. Burris can tell you.

I own and have used Burris Signature rings with the Pos-Align inserts including the see rings and XTR. The XTR rings come with a variety of inserts and you can buy the Pos-Align inserts separately. They are the same inserts. Here’s a link that shows the pos-align inserts that come with the XTR rings

https://www.burrisoptics.com/sites/default/files/content/products/preview/downloads/xtrsignatureringsinstruction.pdf


 
I see the picture. And they are called Z rings, not "see" rings. The outside surface of the XTR insert is FLAT. Clearly visible in every picture shown. They are less likely to PIVOT front to rear in the ring ("self-align") than are the ROUNDED Z inserts which are rounded for precisely that reason. Both inserts may be non-directional. I'm not certain on that. Someone on another site has stated that he thinks the XTR rings PIVOT on the central raised band visible inside the ring body. Maybe so as that could work but would certainly seem to limit contact area of the insert to ring in comparison to the fully rounded Z rings. But the XTR and Z inserts are not "the same". I am certain on that. Burris will have an accurate answer.
 
bandg,

I'm just trying to help out a fellow shooter here based on first hand knowledge not what I read on the internet. Not interested in a pissing match. Yes, you will see in my earlier posts I referred to them as zee rings. Auto correct is frustrating. To be clear, Burris Zee rings don't have a pos-align insert. It's the Burris SIGNATURE Zee rings that have the pos-align inserts.
 
Problem is, it seems that maybe you think you are the only one trying to help someone. I'm also trying to help the OP.

20210423_173544.1619217577.jpg


Anyone wondering about this issue needs to look at the picture above. Ignore the end of my fat ugly finger but look where it is pointing. This is a Burris insert. A Burris Signature insert. A Burris Signature Z insert. NOT an XTR insert. The picture isn't the best quality but I believe everyone can see that where that ugly fat finger is pointing, that outer surface of that insert is ROUNDED. It is ROUNDED around it's radius and across it's width. The INNER body of the Signature Z ring is also ROUNDED. Bottom base and top strap are both ROUNDED internally around the radius and across the width, to match the ROUNDED shape of the insert's outer surface. Those 2 ROUNDED surfaces fit together. Much like a Heim joint, for the car guys. That ROUNDED surface matchup allows the insert to PIVOT front to rear as different height inserts are used so that the insert "self-aligns" within the ring body while staying in flat contact with the scope tube. This keeps the flat inner surface of the insert (where it touches the scope body) from contacting on an edge anywhere.

Then look above at any of the pictures above of the XTR inserts. The XTR insert is FLAT on it's outer surface. The inner surface of the XTR ring isn't rounded, it uses a raised central "ridge". THEY ARE NOT "THE SAME". Both Z and XTR use polymer inserts to customize "tilt" angle of the scope. Both types allow different thicknesses of insert to be paired to change the "tilt" (angle) of the scope. Both allow different combinations of inserts between front and rear rings to provide even more customization of "tilt". Both can be rotated around the inside diameter of the ring to change the orientation a bit so that some windage correction can be gained, although some elevation change is sacrificed to do so. But the SHAPE of the two inserts is PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT between Z and XTR and the inner shape of each respective ring type is different as well. Look at the XTR pictures above. The XTR appears to use a central elevated rounded "ridge" in the ring base and top strap (visible in the above photos) to allow PIVOT between that ridge and the flat outer surface of the XTR insert. The Z system, in contrast, uses a rounded inner ring base and top strap working with a rounded outer shape of the insert. Z inserts are intended to be used with Z rings while XTR inserts are intended to be used with XTR rings. They sure don't appear to be designed to be interchangeable. Would one type "fit" in the other? Possibly. But I absolutely do not believe that was intended by Burris and I don't believe such a possible combination would be as stable as would using them together as apparently designed. They are distinct designs, distinct shapes.

Considering the flat surface to RIDGE contact design of the XTR, I assume that would provide PIVOT front to rear. That appears to be how Burris designed in the PIVOT for the XTR-using the raised ridge to provide a PIVOT area. Two distinct ring designs, not intended to share inserts.

If one considers the contact area of the more spherical shape of the Z INSERT TO RING contact area (rounded to rounded) to that of the XTR INSERT TO RING contact area (raised ring ridge to flat outer insert surface), it sure seems that more contact area would be present with the Z rings than the XTR where the insert touches the ring. That COULD be more stable, more consistent because of more contact area. Maybe there is no functional difference for shooting. Maybe the XTR rings have ENOUGH contact area to work perfectly well. I don't know, I don't have any XTR rings at this time. But I don't base my information just on "what I've read on the internet". I did order a set of the XTR rings when they first came out. The height of the rings wasn't what I needed and I returned them. I did, however, look at the XTR rings out of the package and I did not like the contact design between the ridge on the ring (very narrow) and the flat surface of the insert. The functional design of the two ring types is a bit different and I returned the XTR rings to Midway and they exchanged them for Z rings. Is one better that the other? I don't know. I already had a few sets of Z rings in service and had seen no movement of any type so I elected to continue using the Z rings. It seems that the Z rings COULD HAVE much higher contact area between insert and ring-rounded/rounded contact vs narrow ridge/flat surface contact. But it also does appear that the XTR rings are usually wider (front to rear) and I believe they often have more screws attaching top strap to base so they possibly have more contact between insert and scope tube than the Z rings may have. Which is more important, if either? I don't know. My Z rings are very stable. I assume XTR rings are also very stable for those who use them. I didn't try the design after looking at it.

Assuming that the contact areas for the XTR rings (the flat outer surface of the insert contacting the raised ridge on the ring body) is designed to allow the desired PIVOT, then the inserts MAY POSSIBLY NOT be directional. I still don't know for certain but that is possible. I said from the beginning that I wasn't certain either way but that I believed that they were directional because of the offset number position. I still wonder WHY Burris moved the numbers from center of Z insert to side of XTR insert. But looking at the design it follows logically that they may have been moving the stamped number AWAY from the central area of the flat insert surface where that would be contacting the raised ridge of the ring to prevent the raised ridge from possibly flattening the numbers or making them unreadable. I don't know but this does seem to be logical.

Conclusion-maybe the inserts are not directional. I now think that maybe they aren't. But the two insert types are not "the same". They are different shapes designed to function in a specific way with the correct pairing of insert type to ring type. XTR with XTR, Z with Z. I prefer the contact areas provided by the Z design over that of the XTR design. I might be selling the XTR design short and they may be working perfectly well for people. I might have kept the XTR rings I ordered long ago had the ring height been usable. Maybe I'd have a different view of them in that case and maybe I'll try another set at some time. I've become a devoted user of Sportsmatch rings (on both air rifles and centerfire rifles) because they allow independent elevation and windage adjustment and they are perfectly stable once locked. I haven't purchase a set of Z rings in probably 5 years and may never purchase any more because I prefer the Sportsmatch.

No hard feelings. Just a disagreement. Isn't the first and won't be the last. Shoot well.
 
Yep, the XTR rings (B's picture) are NOT directional and if you wish you can get more cant/slope out of them than you OP indicates. It seems that you already have a good grasp of the instructions. The table will indicate the inches at MOA gained which will help you decide how much elevation is needed.

I have also used these to correct minor off center (side x side) barrel issues.

mike
 
This is set of Burris XTR Signature Rings 

2390B108-C636-4B5B-835A-1AE29424606A.1619221388.jpeg
410D562B-0F57-4738-AA40-32B61FC9750F.1619221393.jpeg

They not directional, I could use them like that as well, compare to my first picture. 
B

"They are not directional". I now agree. I wasn't sure before, and I said I wasn't sure, but I did believe they MIGHT be directional because of the offset number position. That was a faulty assumption on my part. They are not, as you note here and others have said, directional. But these XTR inserts also aren't "the same" as Z inserts, as another poster stated in error. These pictured here are designed for use in the XTR rings. They are FLAT on the back, designed to work with the XTR inner ring shape. The Z inserts (and ring internals) are a different ROUNDED shape, designed to work with each other. Could one type insert be placed in the other ring body? Possibly but it certainly doesn't seem like that was the design intent by Burris because they aren't the same shape.

For those shooters that have BOTH types in active use, do you prefer one over the other? I have no XTR type in use but 3 or 4 sets of Z type in use. The Z types work very well within the limits of their adjustment ranges. I'll stay with Sportsmatch (fully independent windage and elevation adjustment) myself because with the Burris rings (either type) any adjustment of windage removes some of the adjustment you can use for elevation and vice versa.
 
Good photo above. Yes, a "different design", flat backed for one and rounded back for the other. A different mechanism for pivoting front to rear, but both do so. Inserts aren't directional for either type (my ASSUMPTION that they might be was wrong) but also the 2 types aren't "the same". I understand that 30 vs 34 mm are shown above, but the XTR rings just generally appear to me to be a bit bigger/wider/stronger for the same tube diameter. Maybe not, but they do seem to have more screws for the top strap in many cases. Not sure, but the XTR's just seem to look more "robust". I assume both work very well to prevent scope slippage but is there an advantage to one over the other? I only have Z types in use so not sure but the Z rings have worked extremely well for me. As long as one doesn't mix the different insert types (different shapes) then I guess there might be no major functional difference between the 2 types for any given shooter.
 
​​​My interpretation of the inserts is you need to keep the pressure even front ring to back ring or you are just shimming. The picture above appears to be shimming the scope. I thought to remain pressure neutral the inserts had to be neutral fron to back as well as top to bottom. It appeared to me if you had -10 bottom front ring you needed +10 top rear ring. All adjustments have to be done this way.

The picture at top shows the front ring neutral to itself and rear ring neutral to itself but the scope front to back has a 15 difference in pressure, which has to go somewhere. I would think that would be torqueing the tube significantly. You may be able to get these configurations to work but they are putting pressure on the scope tube and defeating the purpose of the rings. They become fancy shims. I was under the impression you were actually suspending the scope tube in the inserts and had to keep them pressure neutral.

What I really found challenging about them was anytime you try to cant the insert to accommodate windage that comes off your elevation. They are challenging to dial in for both windage and elevation. 


 
​​​My interpretation of the inserts is you need to keep the pressure even front ring to back ring or you are just shimming. The picture above appears to be shimming the scope. I thought to remain pressure neutral the inserts had to be neutral fron to back as well as top to bottom. It appeared to me if you had -10 bottom front ring you needed +10 top rear ring. All adjustments have to be done this way.

The picture at top shows the front ring neutral to itself and rear ring neutral to itself but the scope front to back has a 15 difference in pressure, which has to go somewhere. I would think that would be torqueing the tube significantly. You may be able to get these configurations to work but they are putting pressure on the scope tube and defeating the purpose of the rings. They become fancy shims. I was under the impression you were actually suspending the scope tube in the inserts and had to keep them pressure neutral.

What I really found challenging about them was anytime you try to cant the insert to accommodate windage that comes off your elevation. They are challenging to dial in for both windage and elevation. 


Correct on the loss of elevation correction if windage correction is used. It is a "static" setup with a given amount of offset per insert "pair" so any windage correction amount used would have to be "subtracted" from possible elevation correction.

Incorrect on the front to rear pairing. They are entirely independent. Both Z and XTR system individual rings are designed to PIVOT up and down even as the inserts are used. In other words, they are designed to SELF-ALIGN, which does relate indirectly to the issue of shimming. I will not shim scopes in common usage because it WILL produce some level of edge contact. Whether that is significant or not depends on amount of shimming and how tight one goes on the ring straps. But it is there. I will use Z and XTR systems precisely because they eliminate any chance of edge contact through the PIVOT. Completely different final results with no possible damage from Z/XTR rings but possible damage from shimming. But one can use any paired combination of inserts in the front ring in complete disregard for what pair is in the rear, and vice versa. The PIVOT allows such individual combinations front to rear.

The difficulty in adjusting windage simultaneously with elevation with Z/XTR is why I prefer Sportsmatch. With Sportsmatch, the adjustment are completely independent so much easier to do.