Carbin fiber bottles

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Firewalker said:
Actually, if you are not in commerce, it has no relevance to you, same with propane, it's on the labels etc but reality is it does not apply to us. Also, it's not enforceable unless your in commerce.

You have to hunt for the exceptions but it's there.
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Good to know.

Peashooter said:
You have not seen lipo battery fires, those could leave a scar alright, also if you are not there burn down your house.
I never charge my phone unless i am there ( that happen when i drive my car ) or charge my RC batteris, which is done in my window sill so i can throw everything out if something happen. ( that have happened once though at my friends place which use the same RC battery charge procedure )
I dont even go to the toilet when i charge RC batteries, well at least not for #2.

But yeah there are of course differences in outcome of a failure to something, if a Popsicle fail it is not so bad ( broken stick ) unless the fail is the stick have been dipped in something really nasty.
I would not like a vanilla / nougat / strychnine Popsicle
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phone batteries have caused fires but they haven’t blown people’s hands off. You drop it and get out of the way.

I don’t want a Li-ion battery fire either but I’ll choose that over a burst 4500psi tank every day.

This all supports my point - safety comes from regulation and accountability and Samsung was accountable for the batteries in their devices. If those were bought direct from China the Chinese company laughs and their government protects them. The point is to buy devices and equipment that have appropriate safety and testing measures in place held to an accountable party.
 
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Well it do seem to be almost a norm in China, i mean just look at their Tofy dreg builds,,,,, unbelievable.
Or just common sense they also seem to skip building a whole town 90%, and then just walk away.

But also plenty examples of western and even major brands trying their very best to weasel out of a problem.
or at least push the limit very far to make a extra buck.
Now i am not a American but i have a Apple problem ( going back to before the phone days ) but to me it seem they royally screw over the American tax system.
Hell MacDonalds back in the day sold xx of millions of burgers here but did not pay a dime in tax, finagling the system,,,,, which is not entirely to blame on them of course, the people here that make that possible i loathe just as much.
 
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Before I retired I was in the nuclear power industry. They were never my customer but our company transfered technology to China to build their most advanced nuclear plants and they built several which work fine. When we did a walk down for them we found a number of serious construction errors, however. Correction of the errors cost the customer months in their build process. But our chinese customer still got the plants running about a decade before we could in this country.

4 of my 5 PCPs were made in china. None are bottle guns. I'd rather have a bottle gun from a safety standpoint, however. My guns have aluminum cylinders. The aluminum is both the air barrier to prevent leakage and the strength source to resist the pressure. If there is a weak spot, it could tear resulting in rapid depressurization and possibly torn aluminum. With a bottle, you have a thin aluminum liner that is there purely to stop air leakage. That liner is covered by plenty of carbon fiber that provides the strength to resist the pressure. The tests I've seen involved serious over pressurization of a tank with major damage to the carbon fiber and it still failed at over 10,000 psi. When it fails, the carbon fiber does not support the aluminum enough or the aluminum fails from corrosion and leaks. Either way it is a small area of damage, not a tear as is possible for a metal tank. So I think the bottle is safer. But I wish I knew the design margins in the carbon fiber for the different tanks. My suspicion is that the Scott tank I use is better made with higher margins than a typical chinese made air tank. But I don't really know that.

If I was terribly worried about chinese manufacturing I wouldn't have purchased 4 of my airguns and I wouldn't be using a Yong Heng either. As a practical matter their quality control seems to be good enough and they make pretty good airguns at their price point. I think if we want to be worried there are better qualified areas for concern than carbon fiber reinforced bottles, however. Anything made of metal and exposed to the same pressures, for instance.
 
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Again, Chinese manufacturing is not the risk. It’s bringing goods directly from a Chinese manufacturer and relying on them to provide safe products. My company used Chinese suppliers and it works if you maintain the QC structure to watch them like hawks on every order. I’m sure some of the parts we rejected quickly appeared on some secondary markets elsewhere.

Your airguns were imported and resold. That one transaction to a us based importer does create some accountability to protect to the eventual buyers. Its still wise to pay attention to who is importing it and who c they are new, and if they understand what they are doing.

I have seen photos of a failed tank and it wasn’t pretty. I suspect that we haven’t seen many because the tanks are robust and tested before reaching us, and also because our compressors can’t achieve high enough pressure to get us in trouble.

I’m not a fan of Chinese compressors but those don’t scare me as much because a failure is likely to be a hose popping off or failed internal seals. The potential energy inside the compressor is also much lower than the massive bulk fill bottles.
 
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klentz said:
This thread has me concerned to a degree. Are there any examples of 44 cubic foot or 88 cubic foot 4500 psi carbon fiber tanks exploding?
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I make no claims to be the expert @dgeesaman asserts of himself, but I've not heard of any. It's been my understanding that CF tanks will leak well before they explode. I've watched videos of CF tanks being shot by large caliber PBs and all they do is poke a hole and aggressively release their air (ie: that tank get's blown around by the expelled air).
 
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I’ve googled this for myself and found a few cases of a burst tank or the fitting threads failing.

I agree that some failures are graceful and probably result in a shrieking sound and loss of air. But I found some examples where they burst suddenly or the fitting broke off and the bottle shot around like a wrecking ball. Feel free to poke around for yourself. There are a variety of things that can lead to tank failure and they won’t all have the same result.

Lets not forget that we have not had a significant number of untested tanks arriving direct from China yet. The frequency and mode of failures would be unrelated to properly built cylinders.

Risk is a relative matter. If the risk only poses a threat to you then I will grant you have more latitude to make your own calls. But at the end of the day bulk fill cylinders are small bombs in terms of potential energy and we really can’t have every cheap and lazy person buying the cheapest possible air cylinders direct from China. Compared to all of the costs in PCP shooting, buying a quality tank that has withstood testing is a no brainer.
 
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dgeesaman said:
Good to know.


phone batteries have caused fires but they haven’t blown people’s hands off...
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Never happened. The only catastrophic destruction of CF tanks occurred under testing, 12,000psi as I remember.

They just don't blow up. The inner aluminum shell bulges and carbon fibers separate and the air escapes in a few seconds.

Fittings break, never seen a CF tank blow except for a fireman's tank that was actually a scene from a TV show videod by a stand-by.

It's all scare tactics.
 
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Peashooter said:
What make me wonder about many things is, something entirely made by a machine, as a CF bottle pretty much are, why move the production of those to a far away country / why cant they ba made at the same price in this country.
LEGO moved their production out many years ago, why i have no idea, maybe outside of the higher energy costs here and of course wages.
But i visited LEGO many years ago, and not a whole lot of PPL working there, plastic blocks just whizzing around in automated factory.

Another thing i think maybe, makes here are so used to make something for say 10 dollars and being able to sell it for at the very least 20 dollars, and then the retailer add his 10 dollars to it too, and BOM you pay up sucker.
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Because of taxes, regulations, utilities. They all cost a lot here in the States that are a lot cheaper in places like China and Korea. Also there are still going to be people working there just less like management, maintenance, and personal.
 
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Not really something that eats at me or do I think about. It’s a slight risk for sure but we accept much much greater risk every single day and give it little consideration. Driving several thousands of pounds of steel at high speeds. Having to count everyday on dozens of people around you that you don’t know whatsoever to do their part and keep you alive. When you really think about that it’s insane but it’s accepted risk. These tanks are of and should be little worry.
 
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DesertSilver said:
Because of taxes
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I know, and you will be hard pressed to find a worse place than Denmark, though it do seem America are as expensive if you look at aggregate cost for a family over time.

Here you pay more tax on income but also when spending money, but then you do not have to save a dime for your kids education ( assuming you care about such things )
And you do not need to have a savings / insurance if you maybe need to go to the hospital, here you just go ASO.

Mind you our pharm Company Novo, just passed Tesla in value, so it is possible to make money here, Maersk shipping also still here, they could have run a lifetime ago had they chosen to.

Still they are not selling the Danish model that easy to me, i would like to see a range of changes to the general MO of the country.
So i am a rebel with a not accepted cause here. :)
 
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I all ways see people nocking China's goods, I don't care what brand of whatever, in one way or another China is involved. If it's made with steel (China has built up a gigantic production capacity for iron and steel and is, by way, the largest steel producer worldwide, with an annual crude steel production volume exceeding one billion metric tons. Manufactured products account for about 94.3% of China’s $2.09 trillion total exports which include automobiles, ships, locomotives, textiles, fertilizers, and electronics. The list goes on and on. so even if you buy UK products China is still involved. So, at what point do we start to question" made in China"? LOL. If you need to get angry, be angry at our government who has put us in this position.
 
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Chinese bottles are not cheap and depending on the source quality might be suspect. Plus no DOT means no filling if travel with it or no compressor at home. I buy surplus US made SCBA tanks from eBay for cheap than new Chinese tanks. I get quality, certifications, piece of mind and support American businesses.

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If you want cert to get filled then get younger tanks. If you don’t need shops to fill then older expires thanks can be had for under 100bucks, they lasts basically forever if not abused. PLUS scba tanks have built in pressure gauge so you don’t need another gauge or fancy fill stations.
 
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Well my 9L CF bottle i saved 1/3 VS buying it locally somewhere in EU ville, that i would call substantial savings.
Actually the first bottle i ordered where the deal fell thru, well i was set to save 1/2 the price VS local.
That 1/3 saving add up to a couple if not 3 months of " free " ammo when the shooting cadence really pick up over the summer. :cool:

if i could get 1/3 off on a epic airguns Two, i would be swiping my visa card in a instance. even if its still up in the air if i actually can afford to do that.
April 10 i will know for sure.

I am expecting even more price drops / inventory dumps as China tail spin down a red hole, so been thinking maybe pick up a spare CF rifle bottle or two.
Or maybe a more portable friendly 6 L " big " bottle and then just a single spare rifle bottle.

With 12 + 9 L i feel i am very good on the big 300 BAR bottle side, and i have the old 200 BAR 12 L one too, though i think it will more be a compressed air source now that i have returned the little airbrush compressor i borrowed from my M8.
And of course i can fill my own big bottles any time i want to.

I can not recall a single instance of a dive bottle blowing up here, but my friend say he many years ago read about one blowing up in a car, and so " inflating " the "tin " box a bit and spreading glass all over the place.
But i have tried to google that instance and nothing popped up, and i mean nothing at all, and i have tried to search with several different search engines, it would seem like dive bottles dont ever explode in Denmark.

Of course little mostly Cold Denmark probably not as many divers as in warmer places of the map.

PS: i have just ordered a sign for my apartment door, the yellow triangle saying " pressure bottles remove in case of fire "
 
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