Catastrophic Failure of AirForce Condor Breech

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BeemanR7

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Jan 25, 2017
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Several months ago I experienced a catastrophic failure of a stock AirForce Condor breech. After examining the pieces it was blatantly obvious that the failure occurred on the longitudinal centerline of the breech intersecting right through the hole for the breech cocking knob stud. The hole for the breech cocking knob stud was drilled all the way through the breech leaving too little material to withstand the pressure. A factory replacement breech was sent by Tony of TalonTunes. I examined it thoroughly before installing it and this one was bored completely through also. As fortune would have it, Tony had already begun making available an aftermarket breech made entirely of aluminum and was careful not to bore the cocking knob hole so deep. So far it is working out great.

WARNING!!!: If your AirForce Condor is set up with the heavy hammer and spring and running the carbon fiber bottle and/or tuned to shoot anywhere near 100 FPE, your stock AirForce Condor breech may not be able to handle the pressure, especially if the cocking knob stud hole is drilled all the way through the breech. I highly recommend that AirForce re-design their Condor breech by at least not drilling the cocking knob hole so deep. This is a "NO-BRAINER"!!! Better yet, contact Tony for his new aluminum replacement breech. And when you get Tony's new aluminum breech, carefully grind a thread or two off the end of the cocking knob stud so that it doesn't bottom out in the hole and cause a stress riser.

For those wishing to retain the original breech, take the time to remove the cocking knob and measure the depth of the cocking knob stud hole to make sure it's not drilled all the way through the breech. If there is little or no material left in the bottom of the hole, replace it with Tony's aluminum breech.

When the stock AirForce Condor breech let go, it exploded and sent high velocity shrapnel in all directions. I was shooting from indoors through a window and all the shrapnel was contained within the room. That's how I was able to gather up all the pieces and do a thorough re-assembly and investigation to positively determine the cause of the failure. 

BeemanR7
 
E30_S50, No injuries, thank God!

crittahitta,

To remove, inspect, and/or replace the breech, simply remove the cocking knob. Then remove the tank. Then slip the breech out the rear. If you have the older Condor like mine, first remove the tiny set screw on the power wheel. Then remove the 4 set screws securing the barrel and remove all of it. The hammer, hammer spring, and power wheel all comes out with the barrel. Then the breech can come out the front. You may have to pull the trigger to release the sear. Once the breech is out, you can measure the depth of the cocking knob stud hole to see if the hole is drilled too deep. I wouldn't trust it unless there was at least 1/16th of an inch of material left in the bottom of the hole. My original factory breech was bored all the way through. So was the replacement breech that Tony sold me. I rejected it and bought his new aluminum breech. Even then, I measured to make absolutely certain that the hole wasn't drilled too deep. My original cocking knob bottomed out in the new breech, so I ground off a couple threads to shorten it so that it no longer bottomed out in the hole. I made Tony well aware of the potential for catastrophic failure, even of his new aluminum breech, if that hole is drilled too deep. My recommendation to all is to make the cocking knob with a fatter but much shorter stud so as to reduce the depth of the hole and maintain as much material as possible in the bottom of that hole. A proper re-design of that breech should include a re-design of the cocking knob to correspond. At any rate, Tony's new aluminum breech is holding together. And I've limited my experimentation to 100 FPE max.

BeemanR7
 
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That is what I researched with the 257. Someone should ask Cedric how he did his with no failure yet.

Or to give him the heads up about it.

CA
Click to expand...

I'd give one of my "boys" for Cedric's TalonDor 257. He's got that thing kickin' ass and takin' names. That gun would be perfect for what I do. Trouble is, I've got no money cuz I spent it all on an Impact. One thing is sure, Cedric could teach us all a thing or two about Condors. But I never see him around here. I've got a million questions for that guy. It's not that I dislike my Condor, but, it's not as accurate as Cedrics TalonDor and I'd like to fix that. He could help me. I'm getting the job done and I really should be satisfied. But I'm a stickler for accuracy. Nothing I shoot walks away. But if I can't shoot a mouse in the nose at 50 yards, I'm not happy. It's plenty good enough for deer up to 80 yards or more, and coyotes up to 50. But dad gummit I want more accuracy! A little more power and range wouldn't hurt either. I think I know what Cedric would tell me. But if I have to spend what he has invested in his TalonDor, I think I'd rather have a repeater, and ideally, a bullpup repeater. S'pose Cedric could make a recommendation? If you know him and can contact him, CA, maybe you can invite him here.

BeemanR7
 
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keyman, this was on a modified rifle, so AF would have not a thing to do with this issue. Were it completely stock and had such an issue at rated psi AF would need to have an opinion. There have been other highly modded rigs over the years that developed issues, double the horse power on your car & the same may happen and it is all on the user.



This post is an excellent public service informational with specific info for the AF rigs. It also relates to any modified airgun, a 22xx w/pinned valve & 2,000psi should, be safe/ It IS on you though if anyone ever gets hurt. Same with using higher psi rated bottles than factory without proper burst disc or other protection.

Anytime you are pushing your airgun past so called red line ( love old engines ) / above factory specs you do need to understand everything involved or you are rolling the dice.



Personally I could use a picture of said parts as I dont know the rifle well and would buy one at the pawn shop if presented at a value price.



John
 
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Spysir-

Speaking of old engines and red line limit, I have to agree with your analogy when it comes to cars and airguns.

Parts are bound to give sooner or later given the added stress and pressures involved.

I had a drop in direct bolt on supercharger installed onto on older car and the sohc cam lobes got completely worn 

out within only less than a few hundred miles. The kit stated no additional mods necessary. Never got the chance

to take it down to the track for an offical time slip. Too bad... Whipped a good amount of modded ricers though LOL!

My solution was to buy a car with more displacement as the saying goes "there is no replacement for displacement".

Sold that car after replacing the cam for a fair price and threw in the supercharger (belt unhooked of course) for free.

Same goes for airguns IMHO...

I found that by backing the power down on several PCPs it actually made better shooting and surprisingly more

consistently accurate guns on many instances.

Perhaps an Air Force TEXAN could be a good possible start when relating to displacement?


CA


 
Upvote 0
I'm not an engineer. But my impression of the stock AirForce Condor breech is that it is made of adequate material and strength to be safe under the pressures that I'm using. The problem is that AirForce drilled the cocking lug hole too deep and weakened an otherwise adequate part. They drilled the hole all the way through to the high pressure bore of the breech. That's insane! Engineers know that where that hole enters the breech, there is a burr around the whole where stress fractures are sure to develop if not de-burred. But there's no access to de-burr them.

All that aside, common sense dictates that the hole should be shallow enough not to weaken the part, much less to penetrate all the way to the high pressure bore of the breech. Not only was my original breech bored through, but so was the new replacement breech. That indicates to me that this is standard AirForce practice and it should be corrected immediately. The simple fix in my view is to increase the diameter of the stud on the cocking lug and to decrease it's length so as to make the corresponding stud hole in the breech material much shallower. I assert that drilling that hole all the way through one wall of the breech compromises the part so that it is not safe even at lower power and fill pressures. 

To make the same point in another way, I would not trust an aluminum breech if that hole were drilled all the way through to the high pressure bore of the breech. That breech is a dynamic part sustaining the full force of every blow of the hammer. That repeated pounding finds it's focus and concentration in the weakest area, where the fragile edge of that hole protrudes into the bore. This is known as a "stress riser". The predictable result is a stress crack developing (beginning) at the edge of that hole and progressing away from the hole until failure eventually occurs. After gathering up all the pieces and re-assembling them, I could clearly see where the crack started and how it progressed until failure occurred. The main fracture perfectly passed through the center of that hole. The obvious fix is not to drill that hole all the way into the bore of the breech. 

When I received the new aluminum breech from TalonTunes, I immediately checked the depth of that hole to ensure that it did not penetrate into the bore. Then I shortened the stud on my cocking lug so that it does not bottom out in the hole and cause another stress riser. I don't expect another incident. Nor would I expect an incident to occur to a stock AirForce Condor breech if the stud hole was shallow.

If you have a Condor, whether stock or modified, I recommend at least inspecting the breech to discover whether that hole extends too close to the bore. My guess is that they ALL do!!! 
 
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Drilling through is way easier/cheaper in production and is clearly strong enough as designed for the design specification.

Anyone heard of this failure in a stock unit?

You abused it and found the weak point.

What appears insane is your reaction.



As a Condor owner, you title scared me.

I see there is no cause as the failure is the fault of your "tuning" for more power.

A slightly less sensational of a title would be more appropriate.

More like, "I pushed my Condor until it failed"
 
Upvote 0
Drilling through is way easier/cheaper in production and is clearly strong enough as designed for the design specification.

Anyone heard of this failure in a stock unit?

You abused it and found the weak point.

What appears insane is your reaction.



As a Condor owner, you title scared me.

I see there is no cause as the failure is the fault of your "tuning" for more power.

A slightly less sensational of a title would be more appropriate.

More like, "I pushed my Condor until it failed"
Click to expand...

Your assertion may well be true. The point is, the failure occurred at 100 FPE. My motive was to warn others before somebody gets hurt. The readers are free to come to whatever conclusion they may glean from the information. My conclusion for those many Condor owners who are experimenting as am I, is to replace the stock Condor breech with one that is not drilled through. 

BeemanR7
 
Upvote 0
That is what I researched with the 257. Someone should ask Cedric how he did his with no failure yet.

Or to give him the heads up about it.

CA
Click to expand...

I'd give one of my "boys" for Cedric's TalonDor 257. He's got that thing kickin' ass and takin' names. That gun would be perfect for what I do. Trouble is, I've got no money cuz I spent it all on an Impact. One thing is sure, Cedric could teach us all a thing or two about Condors. But I never see him around here. I've got a million questions for that guy. It's not that I dislike my Condor, but, it's not as accurate as Cedrics TalonDor and I'd like to fix that. He could help me. I'm getting the job done and I really should be satisfied. But I'm a stickler for accuracy. Nothing I shoot walks away. But if I can't shoot a mouse in the nose at 50 yards, I'm not happy. It's plenty good enough for deer up to 80 yards or more, and coyotes up to 50. But dad gummit I want more accuracy! A little more power and range wouldn't hurt either. I think I know what Cedric would tell me. But if I have to spend what he has invested in his TalonDor, I think I'd rather have a repeater, and ideally, a bullpup repeater. S'pose Cedric could make a recommendation? If you know him and can contact him, CA, maybe you can invite him here.

BeemanR7
Click to expand...

Cedric and I are old friends. Doug Noble as well. My .257 is virtually identical to his other than the bbl. length. It will shoot under 1/4" center to center all day, every day on my megar 80 yard range. 'wish I had more room here. GRRRRR! 

I can probably anser most if not all of your questions for a Talon/Dor. Breech needs to be reinforced. Andn "Always seat the slug fully into the bore". I know Doug doesn't agree with me on this, but part of the slug in the breech rather than fully seated is tantamount to a bore obstruction. It will cause most of the pressure to radiate outward in the breech rather than down the bore where it can do it's work.

Knife
 
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