Is it ok to use Billistol oil in air gun chambers or is there one that you WOULD recommend?
Chamber Oil
- Thread starter Mcrafty1
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I never use oil on a springer except to wipe it down externally. Oil only washes out grease. Grease has a higher load capacity and last much longer. When I was new to springers trying to do the right thing, I bought the RWS silicone oil for the compression chamber and their spring chamber oil. I eventually put one drop too much of the silicone oil and the gun detonated for several shots. My poor little Hw30 clocked over 900 fps. Once. It ruptured the seal and broke the spring.
Don't use oil in springers.
Don't use oil in springers.
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If you are running synthetic seals, there is virtually nothing to be gained from using oil or grease, except a whole heap of issues. Dieseling and temp inconsistency issues such as grease being slower and thicker in colder temps, migration of the grease causing varying results across 500 shots.
Moly does not Diesel, but its carrier suspension is usually mineral based which can leach out and will diesel occasionally. Very high content Moly can help with that to some extent.
A dab of Moly to the rear bearing of the piston will be sufficient to lube the end if it dont have a rear synthetic bearing, but keep it minimal so it does not migrate along the piston to the seal end.
Mainspring Guides of Delrin are actually more efficient without grease, and damp spring twang well enough to not require grease….dont bother. If its steel a touch of moly will be required.
Save the grease for the pivot pin and trigger group. I prefer Mobil Red and tacky as it stays put just the same, but is not so dirty….but no strong arguments against Moly.
The problem starts with Leather sealed guns. The leather cannot seal effectively without being constantly swelled and softened by a few drops of oil.
The key here (after years of trying to get this right) is not so much the oil type but being able to get the oil into the TP easily as you cannot keep opening the gun everytime you need to wet the seal. If the oil is too thick, it will not go in. Even thin oil requires a needle applicator, or very slim spout to get the access.
So you require an oil spout of light flowing oil like Parkerhale Express gun oil. It will get the oil in easily ….will diesel a touch for 5 to 10 clearing shots and then offer consistent shooting for 150 shots or so before needing a few more drops. The leather sealed gun usually does not make big 9ftlb plus power so the dieseling is never catastrophic like it can be in your higher power guns.
Its something vintage gun shooters have to put up with, but should not concern most shooters running modern synthetic seals. Having said that i have run Leather seals like this for Eons without issues, long after a synthetic seals has cracked or worn out.
Krytox….Im not a fan. I understand many shooters have switched to it, but a number of the top tuners, incl me are not so keen. There are reasons, but im not getting into it due to the heated debates that seem to occur with the Krytox new found fan base.
There is a big reason why the pro tuner in business will not use it…as opposed to a decent home tuner.
Moly does not Diesel, but its carrier suspension is usually mineral based which can leach out and will diesel occasionally. Very high content Moly can help with that to some extent.
A dab of Moly to the rear bearing of the piston will be sufficient to lube the end if it dont have a rear synthetic bearing, but keep it minimal so it does not migrate along the piston to the seal end.
Mainspring Guides of Delrin are actually more efficient without grease, and damp spring twang well enough to not require grease….dont bother. If its steel a touch of moly will be required.
Save the grease for the pivot pin and trigger group. I prefer Mobil Red and tacky as it stays put just the same, but is not so dirty….but no strong arguments against Moly.
The problem starts with Leather sealed guns. The leather cannot seal effectively without being constantly swelled and softened by a few drops of oil.
The key here (after years of trying to get this right) is not so much the oil type but being able to get the oil into the TP easily as you cannot keep opening the gun everytime you need to wet the seal. If the oil is too thick, it will not go in. Even thin oil requires a needle applicator, or very slim spout to get the access.
So you require an oil spout of light flowing oil like Parkerhale Express gun oil. It will get the oil in easily ….will diesel a touch for 5 to 10 clearing shots and then offer consistent shooting for 150 shots or so before needing a few more drops. The leather sealed gun usually does not make big 9ftlb plus power so the dieseling is never catastrophic like it can be in your higher power guns.
Its something vintage gun shooters have to put up with, but should not concern most shooters running modern synthetic seals. Having said that i have run Leather seals like this for Eons without issues, long after a synthetic seals has cracked or worn out.
Krytox….Im not a fan. I understand many shooters have switched to it, but a number of the top tuners, incl me are not so keen. There are reasons, but im not getting into it due to the heated debates that seem to occur with the Krytox new found fan base.
There is a big reason why the pro tuner in business will not use it…as opposed to a decent home tuner.
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Absolutely. You are right. I'm sorry I forgot about them. Probably because leather seal gun's haven't been produced in 40 years and these types questions are generally asked by new airgunners about newer airguns.
I'm not familiar with the old leather seal guns enough to make oil recommendations. Mike Driscoll would be the guy I'd go to.
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Its tricky to move past basic None detergent motor oil with Leather seals.
Potentially there are oils free from Dieseling such as PTFE but PTFE synthetic oils cause leather fibres to open and come apart. Silicone Oil does not diesel and is fine on leather, but it has doubtful metal on metal issues …where it will surely gravitate to from the seal.
Some of the vintage BSA underlevers from the 30s still have perfcetly serviceable leather seals after a lifetime on regular motor oil, mower oil or 3 in 1
Leather is not easily rotted away by mineral oils like what many suggest.
Its never been a problem for me, and you can always change the seal every 5 years anyway.
Potentially there are oils free from Dieseling such as PTFE but PTFE synthetic oils cause leather fibres to open and come apart. Silicone Oil does not diesel and is fine on leather, but it has doubtful metal on metal issues …where it will surely gravitate to from the seal.
Some of the vintage BSA underlevers from the 30s still have perfcetly serviceable leather seals after a lifetime on regular motor oil, mower oil or 3 in 1
Leather is not easily rotted away by mineral oils like what many suggest.
Its never been a problem for me, and you can always change the seal every 5 years anyway.
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I am NOT a turner but after my HW95L seal was damaged by dieseling I used Krytox GPL-205 for the lube and have NOT had any problems after about 7K shots. Pic of seal.
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You will get all kinds of opinions on lubing the chamber of a spring piston airgun.
First, only silicone lubes should be used designed for the chamber. And then
very sparingly! Like one drop ( maybe 2) every tin or two. Let me share why I think it's necessary.
My Feinwerkbau 124D was shooting 775 fps with 8.44 gr JSB's after I replaced the
breech seal. I figured the rifle had sat for a long time from the person I purchased
it from. I decided to add a drop or two of silicone chamber oil which I did. I never shoot right
away after adding the oil. I cock and uncock ( or nearly cock if you have a anti bear trap
safety feature) the rifle and let it rest in different positions before repeating the cocking
and uncocking step. I then let the gun rest a day or two before firing the first time. Dieseling
is kept to a bare minimum ( or none) with this procedure. The results after a couple of hundred shots have
the same pellet shooting 790-800 fps. Just tried some 7.33 gr Air Arms Falcons and 5 shots
averaged 875 fps. After shooting I can look through the barrel and then blow through it and
ZERO smoke is seen. None ! No burning of lube at all since firing hundreds of shoots. Yet, my
velocity is still 20-25 fps higher than when I first got the gun. The dry film silicone molecules
are still present on the chamber walls even though no lubricant carriers are dieseling. That is
a good thing in my book. Many people lube to much and to often which will damage and
shorten the life of the piston seal. I'll wait for the velocity to drop again before lubing.
First, only silicone lubes should be used designed for the chamber. And then
very sparingly! Like one drop ( maybe 2) every tin or two. Let me share why I think it's necessary.
My Feinwerkbau 124D was shooting 775 fps with 8.44 gr JSB's after I replaced the
breech seal. I figured the rifle had sat for a long time from the person I purchased
it from. I decided to add a drop or two of silicone chamber oil which I did. I never shoot right
away after adding the oil. I cock and uncock ( or nearly cock if you have a anti bear trap
safety feature) the rifle and let it rest in different positions before repeating the cocking
and uncocking step. I then let the gun rest a day or two before firing the first time. Dieseling
is kept to a bare minimum ( or none) with this procedure. The results after a couple of hundred shots have
the same pellet shooting 790-800 fps. Just tried some 7.33 gr Air Arms Falcons and 5 shots
averaged 875 fps. After shooting I can look through the barrel and then blow through it and
ZERO smoke is seen. None ! No burning of lube at all since firing hundreds of shoots. Yet, my
velocity is still 20-25 fps higher than when I first got the gun. The dry film silicone molecules
are still present on the chamber walls even though no lubricant carriers are dieseling. That is
a good thing in my book. Many people lube to much and to often which will damage and
shorten the life of the piston seal. I'll wait for the velocity to drop again before lubing.
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I forgot to mention that when I shot my 124D after lubing it didn't diesel
even once ! I thought that I didn't squeeze the bottle hard enough to get
anything out of the bottle. But after a couple shots I did get a slight whisp
of smoke when I blew through the barrel. Very slight amount which stopped
after another dozen or so shots.
even once ! I thought that I didn't squeeze the bottle hard enough to get
anything out of the bottle. But after a couple shots I did get a slight whisp
of smoke when I blew through the barrel. Very slight amount which stopped
after another dozen or so shots.
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I liked your post …even though you use Silicone which everyone jumps up and down about not using.
If its pure as Chamber lube is, a meniscus is fine and helps seal
If its pure as Chamber lube is, a meniscus is fine and helps seal
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I use RWS Chamber lube. I don't think the lube is increasing the sealing which is causing the velocity increase.
I think it's more about decreasing piston drag. Faster piston travel equates to higher pressure behind
the pellet. I think the RWS lube is silicone based.
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I have never been quite certain. Some of the best people at it have long made mention that Silicone Chamber lube, Abbey 35 etc helps seal. They do this in the high tech pumps industry with similar stuff.
However, if you run the numbers on many of these high tech plastics used for seals, they already have an extremely low coefficient of friction often reduced slightly in that efficiency by the addition of oils.
Silicone is very slippy stuff so perhaps both effects are true.
Silicone must never come in contact with 2 tight pressure fits like the breech face.
If you use it, you must minimise migration like what you have done.
However, if you run the numbers on many of these high tech plastics used for seals, they already have an extremely low coefficient of friction often reduced slightly in that efficiency by the addition of oils.
Silicone is very slippy stuff so perhaps both effects are true.
Silicone must never come in contact with 2 tight pressure fits like the breech face.
If you use it, you must minimise migration like what you have done.
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As Stevoo said, the trick with leather is to keep it moist.
What I've done for years to re-condition old leather seals is to soak them in good-quality silicone oil, such as sold for radio-control car shock absorbers. But then stand them on an absorbent surface overnight to pull ALL the excess out. Silicone is an excellent leather-to-metal lube, but a truly terrible metal-to-metal one, so you don't want it wandering around in the chamber. Then a light coating of good moly on the sides of the seal before re-assembly.
Others have successfully used non-detergent 30W motor oil or pure neatsfoot oil on leather since the early days of airgunning! But I personally can't warm up to the idea of openly flammable stuff in there.
For occasional touch-ups, I liked the old Beeman Ultra Lube, which I understand is a re-labeled version of Abbey SM 50 as sold in the UK. SM 50 is primarily oxygenated castor oil with some moly powder added (don't laugh, castor oil was the favored lube for rotary aircraft engines back in WWI days).
All that being said...I appreciate the many good comments here. I'm a hobbyist, not a tuner, and always looking to learn and improve.
What I've done for years to re-condition old leather seals is to soak them in good-quality silicone oil, such as sold for radio-control car shock absorbers. But then stand them on an absorbent surface overnight to pull ALL the excess out. Silicone is an excellent leather-to-metal lube, but a truly terrible metal-to-metal one, so you don't want it wandering around in the chamber. Then a light coating of good moly on the sides of the seal before re-assembly.
Others have successfully used non-detergent 30W motor oil or pure neatsfoot oil on leather since the early days of airgunning! But I personally can't warm up to the idea of openly flammable stuff in there.
For occasional touch-ups, I liked the old Beeman Ultra Lube, which I understand is a re-labeled version of Abbey SM 50 as sold in the UK. SM 50 is primarily oxygenated castor oil with some moly powder added (don't laugh, castor oil was the favored lube for rotary aircraft engines back in WWI days).
All that being said...I appreciate the many good comments here. I'm a hobbyist, not a tuner, and always looking to learn and improve.
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I had one of my Siroccos in storage for a few years. Our 3 son's sports kept me pretty busy. Some years I had 3 sons in jr high, varsity, and college wrestling at once. Track, cross country, and soccer too. Summertime trips to wrestling clubs, etc. And fall/winter we also had some great night time walleye fishing I couldn't resist. When I broke that particular gun out it honked when cocked and had very erratic low velocity. I lowered the ram pressure and tried a few drops of Beeman silicone oil I had since the 80's. Which the manufacturer forbade. After a few sessions shooting consistency returned so I raised the ram pressure to shoot 17 ft lb. I did see and smell burning for a few shots. Expected the seal to need replacement soon. It's still shooting great 3 years later. I don't shoot it very often, though. The original seal is 35 years old. Still one of my favorite shooters.
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You can also run Castor oil in your ring dingers (two strokes). Some of my favorite cafe racers were wicked 2 strokes. Not the junkyard crap they call cafe bikes today.
I'd rather be a motorcycle roadracer for a minute than a spectator for a lifetime!
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The piston seal on my 124D is that ARH Mongoose that was new and barely shot. My guess
is that it wasn't sized correctly and probably a little tighter than it should be. The dry film left
on the cylinder wall just allows for less drag ( friction). In time it will probably loosen.
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Silicone oil is fine (i have used it many times with leather seals) its only when it migrates to high pressure steel on steel faces do we get an issue.
The piston is actually quite a decent slide tolerance fit in the chamber….often 0.2mm and should be fine.
Just never use Silicone oil on sliding bolts or breech faces with less than 0.1mm of clearance, or high pressure closing faces.
Equally, i have never had issues with leather seals i lubed with Parkerhale gun oil causing rotting. Certainly not within 5 years anyway….and many guns running happy on such for eons.
Leather resists rotting pretty well…..you just need to put up with a few dieseling shots when clearing the excess.
If you can establish a routine its fine.
Remember dieseling is not the same as detonation.
Krytox is good but not liked by tuning houses..
Ill share the reason.
Number one, its expensive, but it locks you into to just that lube forever. Tuning house professionals have no idea if you will add other lubes at some point in the future. Krytox hates other lubes.
Krytox is a nightmare to clean out. In fact you cannot fully get it all out. Once in you need to stick to it.
So pro tuners dont like it when it comes to re-servicing of the gun at a later date.
Fine for the home tuner if you are sticking with it for keeps….but the gun must be implicitly clean.
The piston is actually quite a decent slide tolerance fit in the chamber….often 0.2mm and should be fine.
Just never use Silicone oil on sliding bolts or breech faces with less than 0.1mm of clearance, or high pressure closing faces.
Equally, i have never had issues with leather seals i lubed with Parkerhale gun oil causing rotting. Certainly not within 5 years anyway….and many guns running happy on such for eons.
Leather resists rotting pretty well…..you just need to put up with a few dieseling shots when clearing the excess.
If you can establish a routine its fine.
Remember dieseling is not the same as detonation.
Krytox is good but not liked by tuning houses..
Ill share the reason.
Number one, its expensive, but it locks you into to just that lube forever. Tuning house professionals have no idea if you will add other lubes at some point in the future. Krytox hates other lubes.
Krytox is a nightmare to clean out. In fact you cannot fully get it all out. Once in you need to stick to it.
So pro tuners dont like it when it comes to re-servicing of the gun at a later date.
Fine for the home tuner if you are sticking with it for keeps….but the gun must be implicitly clean.
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I use Krytox at work all day on all sorts of applications.
It does not react or go nuts with other lubes. It simply doesn't mix with them. And it's not impossible to remove either, it can be wiped off/out like any other grease. You aren't stuck with it forever..... Wipe it out well, reapply your favorite lube, and you'll never notice the difference.
Silicone is about equivalent to water as a metal to metal lubricant. It will thin out and dilute any decent lubricant that it comes in contact with. So think about that when you are needlessly spurting "chamber lube" down the transfer port.
It does not react or go nuts with other lubes. It simply doesn't mix with them. And it's not impossible to remove either, it can be wiped off/out like any other grease. You aren't stuck with it forever..... Wipe it out well, reapply your favorite lube, and you'll never notice the difference.
Silicone is about equivalent to water as a metal to metal lubricant. It will thin out and dilute any decent lubricant that it comes in contact with. So think about that when you are needlessly spurting "chamber lube" down the transfer port.
Upvote 0