Chamber Oil

[Steveoo]

It depends on the silicone…there are at least 20 types.…incl. the Silicanes…It also gets deliberately mixed with some lubes at the point of manufacture. I have never…and mean never, experienced it acting as if water, especially in regard of its ultra low coefficient when in its purest form. Also its monster ability to resist against oxidisation as one of the most anti rusting agents for a Ferrous surface on the planet…..ultra opposite spectrum to that of water…
The misconception of Silicone creating galling of medium to low carbon steel comes from compressing under force…sandwiched between the 2 surfaces…but most often Silicone that has been synthesised with Phosphorous, not pure Silicone oil as offered by Abbey and Beeman.

Try chatting with Tony Leach (arguably the top tuner in the UK) in reg of Krytox.
He describes it as expensive crap. I would not go that far. It is useful to the airgun mechanic.
One of the issues is it cannot provide a through TP lube as it is too thick, so the amateur tuner then tries an alternative lube which flows. This then mixes and gets displaced by the Krytox. An inconsistent mess.
It works because of the absence of anything else….thats how you must use it.
In my experience works no better than a hint of Moly on the rear bearing of the piston.
Smear of Silicone or STP on the seal just for assembly purposes …
Perfectly cleaned out and only ever using Krytox from that point on…then yes, its very good.

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

I have noticed the cleanliness aspect when working with Krytox or Ultimox.

They will raise any residue left in the rifle in very short order and create a bit of a funky sludge. At least it is pretty funky looking.

Proper and thorough cleaning of old lubricants negates the effects.

 

[thumper]

The misconception of Silicone creating galling of medium to low carbon steel comes from compressing under force…sandwiched between the 2 surfaces…

With all due respect, just wtf do you think a lubricant between metals is supposed to prevent?

Hint: it's supposed to resist compressing and letting the two parts touch.

And the "pure silicone" that people tout as non-dieselong chamber lube, doesn't prevent that. Plain and simple.

 

[Steveoo]

I hear that….exactly how i would describe it.
Thats why the tuners and tuning houses in business have not taken to it. They know the home meddler will at some point add an additional oil and they then left with an i consistent mess to clean back out.
However, they are there to make money and keep the tune and its oils the easiest it can be for them ….this is why the Krytox is jot chosen.
For a good home tuner who is going to just choose Krytox moving forward…then fine…go ahead.

 

[Steveoo]

In all due respect im not talking of metal on metal compression lubing….much better done by Moly …but the hint on the Seal itself ….if done correctly it does not cause the disastrous consequences as is often touted once a legend is started ….but offers a none burn off meniscus that does not diesel….and with very easy re-application with one drop through the TP…

Bowkett and Turner used it that way for eons ….so have 1000s of others without issue…
I ran it in a pair of Vintage Bsa underlever for near on 30 years with no issue…
Sure if your squirting loads in you are going to have real problems and dieseling …no problems there…
I ran the taps with a hint of moly to keep the Silicone away from the interference fit..the 2 bearings of the pistons with a hint of moly….it worked..

 

[thumper]

I have noticed the cleanliness aspect when working with Krytox or Ultimox.

They will raise any residue left in the rifle in very short order and create a bit of a funky sludge. At least it is pretty funky looking.

Proper and thorough cleaning of old lubricants negates the effects.

Here's another fun fact about Krytox:

Even when assembling parts in an ISO 7 cleanroom, with parts cleaned to 300R4 levels, Krytox will still leach out black when it's used on fastener and fitting threads under torque.

It does pull out old lubricant and turn colors though. Not saying it doesn't. But it would still do it if the gun was as clean as spaceship parts. I predict.

 

[thumper]

In all due respect im not talking of metal on metal compression lubing….much better done by Moly …but the hint on the Seal itself ….if done correctly it does not cause the disastrous consequences as is often touted once a legend is started ….but offers a none burn off meniscus that does not diesel….and with very easy re-application with one drop through the TP…

Bowkett and Turner used it that way for eons ….so have 1000s of others without issue…
Sure if your squirting loads in you are going to have problems and dieseling …no problems there…

Steve,

This discussion isn't making sense. I quoted exactly what you said about it failing between metal. Thats what we were talking about.

If you lube the piston with moly, and squirt silicone in the transfer port, it doesnt magically stay on the seal. And when it gets on the piston or anywhere else, it washes off the lubricant that is there, and causes more potential issues than a dry seal ever could.

If a legend like yourself or the other cats you mention worked on the gun, why in the HELL would you need to add anything?

 

[Steveoo]

I agree with how you imagine it and thats what i would have thought also …..The silicone abrasion and the cross contamination from the seal….I hear you..
I took a lot of consultation on it, during periods of collaboration with Bowkett and later Tony…
The slight amount on the seal is just enough to keep that seal wetted, or in the case of the leather seal, retains it, but it has no effect on the piston faces, or chamber walls after many years and 1000s of rounds…
ITs because the cylinder has an almost rattling fit in the chamber. Often 0.2mm to 0.3mm …much more open than Interference and thus does not gall metal with any more noticeable effect than the action of the piston running in the chamber with regular oils…Polished shiny abrasion..
The issue is shown up under high load interference closure ….loading taps, breech faces etc….
In the cylinder…nothing more than the polish abrasion you might see with reg oil…
Terry Robb used it for 40 years in his Diana rifles with no ill effects used as i describe and still recommends it on his tune components today..
Ivan Hancock was another great user…
I have zero issue with anyone not wanting to use it for the reasons you mention, but its not the whole story.

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

Here's another fun fact about Krytox:

Even when assembling parts in an ISO 7 cleanroom, with parts cleaned to 300R4 levels, Krytox will still leach out black when it's used on fastener and fitting threads under torque.

It does pull out old lubricant and turn colors though. Not saying it doesn't. But it would still do it if the gun was as clean as spaceship parts. I predict.

I did not know that, and I appreciate you sharing the info.

I now use an automotive refinishing wax and grease remover as my final clean up inside of compression tubes.
I had the Ultimox raise old lube inside the first rifle I used it on, due to a less than thorough cleaning. Therefore I had a hint of dieseling. Just some smoke in the barrel, no loud reports.

I was always a little leery after that when I saw evidence of contamination. I now have an explanation for that occurrence.

 

[Steveoo]

The Krytox is absolutely fine provided you follow the sales literature on their website i can see no issue and i would not disagree with Thumper, or Hector on its use as being superior to Moly.
The reason the main pro tuners do not like it, is because they have the concern of cross contamination and all the extra cleaning work required….Time is money and the lube itself not cheap.

A Moly lube only needs a wipe out of the cylinder with kitchen towel wrapped around a mainspring …a wipe over of the Guide and piston, then reassembly with a dab of the same….
Its cost effective for them, easy money and they can get consistency into their tuning.
Try that with Krytox and it will just turn any of the internal emollients into a globby mess..
They worry more about what will show up on the next visit for a service…Moly removes that concern.

 

[GoldenStateAIRGUNer]

I use Krytox at work all day on all sorts of applications.

It does not react or go nuts with other lubes. It simply doesn't mix with them. And it's not impossible to remove either, it can be wiped off/out like any other grease. You aren't stuck with it forever..... Wipe it out well, reapply your favorite lube, and you'll never notice the difference.

Silicone is about equivalent to water as a metal to metal lubricant. It will thin out and dilute any decent lubricant that it comes in contact with. So think about that when you are needlessly spurting "chamber lube" down the transfer port.

" Silicone is about equivalent to water as a metal to metal lubricant. It will thin out and dilute any decent lubricant that it comes in contact with. So think about that when you are needlessly spurting "chamber lube" down the transfer port. "

No one is suggesting to " needlessly spurt " chamber lube down the transfer port. A good chamber lube
used lightly and sparingly isn't going to dilute any other lubes. One or two drops of the type that evaporates and dries will form a dry film and probably won't make it past the piston seals seating surface
area and be able to reach where other lubes ( grease, moly, etc) are present. The RWS Chamber Oil
will dry and leave a dry film that isn't wet or oily like a traditional oil does. Some silicone sprays do leave
a oily film and those types should never be used in the chamber. The key to using a dry film type chamber
lube is to give it time to evaporate (dry out ) before firing like I stated in my first post in this thread topic.

 

[F.Baum]

I wanted to add something to this thread About 8 months ago I tuned my Diana 350 with a vortek kit and lubed the Piston Spring and outer guide with krytox 205, Well I took it apart a couple days ago and lo and behold, The krytox mixed with the Molly that was inside the metal spring sleeve (vortek kit)
The springs are really tight on the kit so I couldn't clean down inside the spring to get all the Molly out.
It turned into the most sticky substance I've ever seen like thick glue!!! And it actually discolored the Stainless steel spring sleeve.

 

[Steveoo]

All things being equal, total cleanliness, and no further mixing of lubricant, then Krytox is the ultimate lube as touted by Hector and a few others...
The issue is, if anything is left in the gun, or added later, it will turn it into useless crud...