Convincing your PB friends to try air power

[steve123]

As far as gun guys go I don't try to convert them. I just outshoot them. The facts are the guy with the most trigger time is going to shoot the best. Period. And NOBODY gets trigger time like an airgunner.

Name one core skill an air rifle won't teach better than a centerfire rifle. You just can't do it.

Shooting offhand is an art you can only learn with hundreds of thousands of shots. Very few fellows come close to mastery. There is no better teaching tool than an air rifle.

It's the ONLY way a poor man is going to learn to shoot.

It's the perfect way to practice and we don't need a bunch of bump firing trigger dicks raising prices and shooting up all the pellets. They've already bought up all the match rimfire ammo. Pretty soon a tin of JSB's will cost $40.

It's crazy man. A million guys out there armed to the teeth and one in a bushel might have a clue. That one probably shoots a pellet rifle.

In 2012, after winning the AZPRC long range centerfire rifle series for the 2nd time, a guy came up and asked me what my secret was?? My reply was I had shot airguns for many years and was the main reason I did well. The look on his face was hilarious because he seriously thought I was kidding! I went on to explain about learning the best Form, learning about wind, well and basically everything else "except controlling recoil". That's actually a biggy if one wants to see where their bullets land so that they can make the needed corrections.

Inflation will continue to rise because the elites keep printing trillions of dollars so that even food will be hard to afford one day not far off. So I suggest people start buying pure lead wire and swaging equipment ASAP.

 

[beerthief]

The problem with air power is the air part. It can be rather expensive and complicated to acquire the compressor, bottles and other paraphernalia and it is almost all on line shopping. Very few have the luxury of handling the air guns or the stuff that makes them go. I can go to any number of shops or stores and handle and look at in detail anything I could need or want for a PB.

Then the types of guns that can compete with any of a number of 22LR rifles are also expensive and finicky. Most of these guns are also sourced from far away old Eastern Block or worse China and require a lot more maintenance than PBs. Another consideration, air gunners seem to think a two month old rifle is obsolete whereas PB guys often shoot rifles designed or even actually are over a hundred years ago. And my PBs have appreciated, ever checked the price of a nice used M3 compared to a new M4, who wants that old thing, not me, I want the new hotness. What will it be worth 50 years from now, not much if anything. And I see a M(X) or a Ghost in my not too distant future with some luck and frugality, hard for me.

And air rifles are really fragile, they cannot take a fall or a tip over and seem to need to be toted about carefully and even then they do not hold POI. I have PBs I sighted in when I was a child and carried extensively and are still on zero. I have duck hunted in salt marshes, carried my Marlin 1895 in Alaska for protection and crossed streams where it was submerged, climbed boulder covered slopes in drenching rain and sleet and yes, it got some knocks along the way. And yet it functioned and held zero, no matter what, it can be counted on to work if needed. So I am sort of the mind that air guns are sort of toys, not really fair, I know. But until the day they are rugged and built to last decades or lifetimes a lot of PB guys will look askance at them, just too fragile to repeat myself. And yes, they are missing out on a lot of fun and pain and frustration and monetary expense, it is what it is.

Ammunition is not so expensive, especially .22, a pack of JSB pellets are not exactly free. A lot of folks, seeing what happened, stocked up on ammo and reloading supplies. I have enough supplies to keep me reloading my favorites (.45-70, .44M, .45 Colt, .22 Hornet and a few others) for the rest of my life. And I have over 200,000 .22 rounds which likely will outlast me and I am still buying. Primers are the annoying thing for those who did not stock up. And Hogden quit making Trail Boss propellent, which is annoying becuase it is the powder I love to load for .45-70 and while I have a bunch, well, I love the stuff.

I love my air guns and want more but I love my PBs a lot more. There is no replacement for displacement when toothy creatures are considering how I might taste.

friends think i am literally crazy when i bring my USFT to the bench rest matches . " that don't even look like a pellet gun ,or gun of any type !"

 

[steve123]

The difference between CCI SV and Eley Tenex is very little in accuracy. A lot in price.

Yes, if you are "match" shooting it matters. Otherwise it just dosent.

The difference in most rimfire accuracy is largely in the headspace. You can make a rimfire shoot about anything good by setting the headspace to the rim thickness of the round you are shooting. In some rifles this is incredibly easy.

If you "compete" there is always a fuss over ammo. No matter what you shoot. If you don't "compete" that all goes out the window. Just about any rimfire ammo shoots good enough. And a lot of ammo can be made to shoot excellent by tuning the rifle a bit.

Let's face it, the difference between a $4k Voodoo tuned to perfection and a $650 CZ457 out of the box is about 1/4"-3/8" at 100 yards. The ammo might make some difference but not enough to worry about unless your shooting "competition".

A quality rifle will toss most rimfire rounds pretty close together no matter what you are feeding it. Just like a quality air rifle. If you are chasing "precision" then the cost (and availability) of ammo may be an issue. If your goal is a super accurate sporting rimfire it simply is not. You can get almost any rimfire ammo to work well in your rifle if your goal is no loftier than about 1 moa.

True in ways but also not true in others.
I've had rimfires vary "hugely". From 1/4" at 50Y to 2.5" at 50Y between different guns and the ammo it's fed. If ones goal is to hit something small then.....
Also you are not considering ES in rimfire ammo which can also vary hugely, like 150fps, and that becomes a critical factor the farther the target is.
There are other considerations as well but at the root is QC.

But if you are shooting pop cans at 50Y, or squirrels up in a tree even closer, then most bulk plinker ammo will do fine.

 

[SteveV]

I don't even try anymore to convince pb'ers anymore for the reasons already mentioned. They all think pellet guns should cost less than the cheapest rimfire at Wally World. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[steve123]

I know guys that have $100's of thousands of dollars in guns, could be close to a million, one in particular is a partial owner of the largest machine gun shoot in the world. He's not a great shot and most of his guns aren't even sighted in which ends up being my job sometimes which is kinda fun because free ammo through his exotics.

 

[Airgun-hobbyist]

I'm an enabler for sure! At the range I just shoot groups better than their pb's and at longer ranges. The guy's that don't know me or thw new members usually start asking all sorts of questions at that point...

 

[GeneT]

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool PBer who got into airguns sometime back (10-15 years ago). I haven't had any issues convincing PB friends to get involved, though the initial outlay keeps some away. You can buy a lot of most ammo for the price of getting started with PCP. That said, there are many ways that airguns just don't replicate PBs, so it's not necessarily a matter of simply improving by practicing with air. You can practice some things, but not others. And it would be nice (for those wanting to use airguns to improve their PB shooting) if more quality airguns were made that had the fit and weight of PB guns.

GsT

 

[steve123]

That guy I just mentioned as well as most of the PB shooters I've been around the last 15 years or so have gotten into pcp airguns from a little bit to buying more than just one pcp. They'll wade in and out of interest in airguns vs PB's.

 

[beerthief]

I'm an enabler for sure! At the range I just shoot groups better than their pb's and at longer ranges. The guy's that don't know me or thw new members usually start asking all sorts of questions at that point...

And in my area it always ends up with initial costs / they laugh and walk away.
I am now practicing with my HW 77 long in .22 and they still shake their head "no" to the cost .

 

[bigHUN]

I have a membership in a gun club some claiming one of the biggest in North America, and this one of the most expensive as well.
From all the members volume I am recognizing faces maybe 30-40 people regular to shooting any time of the year. Most coming out shooting handguns and a handful only BR 100 and a very few only 200-300.
And I am the only one shooting air rifles in my club. Training and practising mostly at 100 and occasionally 50.
What I have an impression that people down-estimating airguns, and not many have seen PCP's.
One may be a price-point. For a decent mid level PCP+supporting equipment we can get a full arsenal of many calibres.
So airgunning is a pretty niche sport at my place.

 

[Ta-Ta Toothie]

Ha, one of my buddies said my pcp's are cute.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

True in ways but also not true in others.
I've had rimfires vary "hugely". From 1/4" at 50Y to 2.5" at 50Y between different guns and the ammo it's fed. If ones goal is to hit something small then.....
Also you are not considering ES in rimfire ammo which can also vary hugely, like 150fps, and that becomes a critical factor the farther the target is.
There are other considerations as well but at the root is QC.

But if you are shooting pop cans at 50Y, or squirrels up in a tree even closer, then most bulk plinker ammo will do fine.

Actually most quality rimfire ammo can hold about an inch @ 100 yards through a good barrel. Yeah there may be fliers. But those just don't count.

Back in 2009 when nobody could find rimfire ammo I bought a truckload of CCI mini mags. I sold it all except 100k rounds. I use it in my revolver for practice.

It shoots well under 1" even with flyers and it cost me less than nothing.

So will three of the five brands of rimfire ammo available at Sportsmans Warehouse today. That's a heck of a lot better than a soda can at 50. I'm doing them at 150 with a rare miss using an array of ammo. It would go a LOT farther than that if given 3-5 shots at it. A 300 yard target is not impossible at all. It's a whole lot less likely with iffy ammo for sure. But it dosent have to be Eley Tenex. CCI SV or Norma Tac will shoot just fine

I don't see the need for the "precision" game. It's only a tiny bit better than a production rifle with available ammo. Outside of the rarified world of "competition" its just not that important. I understand that a guy wants to shoot to the very limits and that is a honorable path. But for others hitting a beer can at 150 3:5 shots is plenty good.

 

[maxtrouble]

Been there, tried that. I do not even bother anymore. Besides, shooting paper is boring to me and that is all my club allows. I can go to my friends house and shoot cans and spinners all day long with no damn KA-BLAM going off next to me.

I do like cleaning their clocks with my CZ452 at the rimfire events. So obvious they have little or no trigger time on their rimfires.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

The guy that hits the most is also the guy that has missed the most. It's the riflemans paradox.

 

[steve123]

Actually most quality rimfire ammo can hold about an inch @ 100 yards through a good barrel. Yeah there may be fliers. But those just don't count.

Back in 2009 when nobody could find rimfire ammo I bought a truckload of CCI mini mags. I sold it all except 100k rounds. I use it in my revolver for practice.

It shoots well under 1" even with flyers and it cost me less than nothing.

So will three of the five brands of rimfire ammo available at Sportsmans Warehouse today. That's a heck of a lot better than a soda can at 50. I'm doing them at 150 with a rare miss using an array of ammo. It would go a LOT farther than that if given 3-5 shots at it. A 300 yard target is not impossible at all. It's a whole lot less likely with iffy ammo for sure. But it dosent have to be Eley Tenex. CCI SV or Norma Tac will shoot just fine

I don't see the need for the "precision" game. It's only a tiny bit better than a production rifle with available ammo. Outside of the rarified world of "competition" its just not that important. I understand that a guy wants to shoot to the very limits and that is a honorable path. But for others hitting a beer can at 150 3:5 shots is plenty good.

We seem to have very different experiences here with rimfire ammo and rimfire rifles as well as expectations for each and I'm not even a Benchrest shooter?!

I think we can agree on the fact that within a "less precision" is okay sometimes 'perspective' the plinker ammo can be fun and usefull as long as one doesn't expect more than what it offers for the task???

Basically it's what the individual is looking to do with the gun and ammo. Not the best use of great ammo for plinking. Not the best use of poor ammo for Comps. Mid grade ammo could be used for both depending on various expectations.

The only time I use the big box store bulk plinker ammo is when I shoot my old iron sighted Ruger semi auto pistol and old iron sighted Winchester semiauto rifle. As I go up into higher qaulity guns I use mid to higher grade ammo because why not enjoy the extra precsion of.

 

[rancho]

I have a membership at the local range. 100yd indoor with 10 benches. Always get a pb guy behind the trigger and they are always amazed. Then cost comes up and it's the same as stated above. A 10-22 is only $250 why pay more for an airgun/tank/compressor.

But when you add a nice barrel, trigger, stock, and silencer to that 1022... ...they almost get as expensive as PCPs.

 

[Sleestak]

I get tons of interest at the local range....especially when I take the big boom-boom sticks. The performance is convincing enough and mentioning the cost of the guns never seems to raise an eyebrow.

The big put-off will always be the compressors. Learning that an expensive electronic appliance is a requisite is the big boner-killer

My line is that it's an up-front cost and the more you use it the more that expense is spread out....and also because I'll do anything to reationalize it in my own mind.

When you factor that in w the convenience factors such as little cleaning and relative backyard friendliness, it's usally not a hard sell IME

 

[Richmeister]

@Bedrock Bob you are right. Everytime I talk precision and trigger time, they are already yawning. I only know a few real shooters and they both shoot air as i do. We show up at our local PRS match and get ran off. We have smoked their tails every time in the past, so now they come up with 1000 reasons we are not allowed to compete with them. It is terrible. The rest look at an impact and say they can do all of that with a 10/22. They will never shoot enough to counter balance the cost, but they have a $2k 1911 that they "carry" to church. Just in case. Smh

I have a friend that all he talks about is shooting a thousand yards and beyond. Sure he has a great rifle and scope combo, but when I mention practicing with an air rifle to hone marksmanship he scoffs.
we had a little rimfire shooting here the other day and was shooting at 50, 100, 150, 200, 250 yards. Hitting a 10" gong target. All the doping was done by a Chairgun shooting app that I had jotted down on a card. His inability to hit the plate at 200 and 250 consistently was quite entertaining to me. When I asked him how he kept missing when the whole thing was set up for him he said it wasn't his gun and it's not the same as shooting high power loads..lol
Just another wanna be sniper.

 

[Richmeister]

But when you add a nice barrel, trigger, stock, and silencer to that 1022... ...they almost get as expensive as PCPs.

And they still get outshot by Air power!

 

[Tumblinginflight]

If the same hubris and bias displayed here are not tempered while “attempting to educate pb shooters”, then I am hardly shocked that they are not lining up to join the sport.

While I would never discourage a person from getting practice and repetition behind an airgun trigger, I believe shooting pbs is far better practice for airgunning than the inverse. Poor form, lack of breath control, lack of trigger control, lack of recoil control, and not understanding natural point of aim just to name a few can be ignored to a much higher degree with an airgun. There’s a joke from a comedian that goes, “I play the guitar. I taught myself how to play the guitar, which was a bad decision… because I didn’t know how to play it, so I was a $h!tty teacher. I would never have went to me.” Someone who has a rigid understanding of shooting discipline could certainly use air as a good practice medium, but in parallel with that quote, bad practice does not make a good shooter.

Everyone I have shown the capability of airguns to has approached the subject with curiousity and respect. Some are off-put by the peripherals associated with PCPs. Some are unbothered by the cost of ammunition, so airguns offer no benefit in that regard. Some are quite old school and disinterested in purchasing anything they cannot see, feel and handle first. Some have their own land where they can shoot any pb they want at any time. Some mostly show up to the range as a social function, and could give a hoot if they even pull the trigger. Some have a bucket list of collectible guns, and airguns don’t make the cut. Some fail to see it as a companion hobby, and do not want- or have the means or support- to add a “new” hobby. I would proffer that some don’t have an audience to indulge their purchase. Whereas picking up an old Winchester model 94 will get some oohs and aahs at the line, having to explain what an MK4 is and why it’s neat just doesn’t have the same appeal. Regardless the reason, I respect their choices and decisions. Sorry to have to say it, but growth of the sport is not going to be helped by personal ego stroking.