Crosman CPHP target damage question

[cavedweller]

I read somewhere on AGN that the CPHP pellets were not allowed at some clubs due to damage they create on targets.

I can actually tell when someone is shooting them as they "sound" way louder (even at <20 fpe) when they strike the target or paddle
and
i can see the extra damage or wear and tear the create on a gamo knock down target, esp with a smaller KZ.

Does anyone have a link to the info about the crosman premier heavy pellets damaging targets... i just can not find it.

 

[Franklink]

Don't have a link but can share some anecdotal evidence of CPs on field targets.

Rex's Southwest Airgunners gang bought a bunch of the retired Airgunners of Arizona targets. This was a mutually beneficial arrangement, with the older club passing on some well-loved targets at a great price, to help a new club get going in a new area. Some really neat targets, both in mechanism, and in target faceplate design.

Given the time frame of those old targets, some of them took A LOT of hits with the hard Crosman Premiers, as those were a very frequently used pellet 20ish years ago. One of those targets now in use in Rex's club is a 3/8" (I think?) kz squirrel. The edges of that poor kill zone are all peaned in from all of the CP hits over the years. And if I'm not mistaken, I seem to remember @Arzrover mentioning to me during course set up once that they had even drilled it back out to 3/8" at one point decades ago.

So anyway, think armor piercing rounds versus a simple lead bullet and the logic for a much harder lead causing more damage is certainly there. And CPs and now the JTS offering are so much harder than lead that it's hard for me to even consider them lead, in comparison to a JSB.

 

[AirNGasman]

FWIW, target damage/mortality is but one of MANY issues match directors have to deal with that most shooters never have to think about. As I consider the old Gamo field targets an excellent design, and easily serviced as well, but under-built in steel quality, I've rat-holed a collection of many extra face-plates. Unfortunately not so, replacement paddles.

My wish-list-

1) Obviously, replacement paddles.
2) Better yet, AR50 steel replacement paddles.
3) Also, AR50 steel face-plates.
4) Even better yet, field targets on the Gamo design, but built with AR50 paddles and face-plates.
5) Yet even betterer, #4 also with sear-engagement screws!

Given how many folks have built field targets themselves, often on their own design with varying degrees of success (and failure), I'd think someone could rip-off the Gamo design but produce targets with my wish-list items (relatively) easily enough. Especially if they forego creating a new design.

BTW, my post relates to 20 foot-pound targets; not extreme field targets.

.

 

[Arzrover]

FWIW, target damage/mortality is but one of MANY issues match directors have to deal with that most shooters never have to think about. As I consider the old Gamo field targets an excellent design, and easily serviced as well, but under-built in steel quality, I've rat-holed a collection of many extra face-plates. Unfortunately not so, replacement paddles.

My wish-list-

1) Obviously, replacement paddles.
2) Better yet, AR50 steel replacement paddles.
3) Also, AR50 steel face-plates.
4) Even better yet, field targets on the Gamo design, but built with AR50 paddles and face-plates.
5) Yet even betterer, #4 also with sear-engagement screws!

Given how many folks have built field targets themselves, often on their own design with varying degrees of success (and failure), I'd think someone could rip-off the Gamo design but produce targets with my wish-list items (relatively) easily enough. Especially if they forego creating a new design.

BTW, my post relates to 20 foot-pound targets; not extreme field targets.

.

I'm a little surprised that you credit the design to Gamo as they were offered for sure in the early to mid 90s by KnockOver and have been copied by a lot of builders. The KnockOvers were made of quality steel and held up quite well with no fussiness or setup issues..

The main targets we used back then were from Ron Juneau, KnockOvers, and a few from Alan Z later. Alan's targets were a beefier copy of the KnockOvers with some of his own touches. All of these held up pretty well to the CP's but the <20 yard targets would EVENTUALLY get peened around the kz and on the paddles and require some attention with a welder.

 

[6gun]

I read somewhere on AGN that the CPHP pellets were not allowed at some clubs due to damage they create on targets.

I can actually tell when someone is shooting them as they "sound" way louder (even at <20 fpe) when they strike the target or paddle
and
i can see the extra damage or wear and tear the create on a gamo knock down target, esp with a smaller KZ.

Does anyone have a link to the info about the crosman premier heavy pellets damaging targets... i just can not find it.

The alloy has more antimony in it iirc which makes it harder, and the semblance of a hollow point is like the cone of a shape charge. I had to really think it out as to cphp being a problem and remembered the energy limits at most airgun clubs.

Tldr; plausible due to lead alloy.

 

[cavedweller]

The alloy has more antimony in it iirc which makes it harder, and the semblance of a hollow point is like the cone of a shape charge. I had to really think it out as to cphp being a problem and remembered the energy limits at most airgun clubs.

Tldr; plausible due to lead alloy.

Being an old Navy bomb disposal guy.... shape charges and the directional "heat" they generate is a thing i understand well.
The "antimony" you mentioned was in fact the "word" / pellet alloy composition i was looking for in the swiss cheese i call my brain.
thanks for that: and here is the wikipedia def: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimony

for anyone not familiar with a shape charge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge

 

[6gun]

Being an old Navy bomb disposal guy.... shape charges and the directional "heat" they generate is a thing i understand well.
The "antimony" you mentioned was in fact the "word" / pellet alloy composition i was looking for in the swiss cheese i call my brain.
thanks for that: and here is the wikipedia def: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimony

for anyone not familiar with a shape charge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge

U use a rimfire bullet trap and collect cphp scrap particularly to melt down and cast for 38spl target loads particularly because I don't have to alloy it much or at all to get the molds to fill out nicely and not foul my bores.

After your thread I looked at my target and you see cphp more than 70 fpe slugs for dings. I just never gave it thought.

 

[Solo1]

FWIW, target damage/mortality is but one of MANY issues match directors have to deal with that most shooters never have to think about. As I consider the old Gamo field targets an excellent design, and easily serviced as well, but under-built in steel quality, I've rat-holed a collection of many extra face-plates. Unfortunately not so, replacement paddles.

My wish-list-

1) Obviously, replacement paddles.
2) Better yet, AR50 steel replacement paddles.
3) Also, AR50 steel face-plates.
4) Even better yet, field targets on the Gamo design, but built with AR50 paddles and face-plates.
5) Yet even betterer, #4 also with sear-engagement screws!

Given how many folks have built field targets themselves, often on their own design with varying degrees of success (and failure), I'd think someone could rip-off the Gamo design but produce targets with my wish-list items (relatively) easily enough. Especially if they forego creating a new design.

BTW, my post relates to 20 foot-pound targets; not extreme field targets.

.

Don’t know if it will help or not but quality targets makes gamo face plates and could probably cut some 1/4” circles for the paddles. We made 1/4” mild steel faceplates and circles for paddles for use on the hp ft gamo targets and they are holding up to 80 ft lb guns

 

[cavedweller]

Don’t know if it will help or not but quality targets makes gamo face plates and could probably cut some 1/4” circles for the paddles. We made 1/4” mild steel faceplates and circles for paddles for use on the hp ft gamo targets and they are holding up to 80 ft lb guns

I have many quality target gamo face plates - and the chp's def ding and ping the area around the kz into submission; the smaller the kz the more noticeable as the direct hits are in a very focused way; the pic is a Quality Target Gamo FP

I'll take some pics of what the CPH's do to a gamo paddle as it's really mostly the paddle getting destroyed.

I was wondering if i could use a larger flat metal disk and silicone it to the existing kz to beef it up? I don't have a welder.
JSB or softer lead pellets don't damage the paddle in a noticeable way.

 

[PowderBurnt]

shape charge

Why is the Alphabet org watching me now? Lol

 

[cavedweller]

Why is the Alphabet org watching me now? Lol

Unlikely unless you use words like plutonium or uranium or fissile or hydrogen or tritium etc

 

[Solo1]

I have many quality target gamo face plates - and the chp's def ding and ping the area around the kz into submission; the smaller the kz the more noticeable as the direct hits are in a very focused way; the pic is a Quality Target Gamo FP

I'll take some pics of what the CPH's do to a gamo paddle as it's really mostly the paddle getting destroyed.

I was wondering if i could use a larger flat metal disk and silicone it to the existing kz to beef it up? I don't have a welder.
JSB or softer lead pellets don't damage the paddle in a noticeable way.

View attachment 549861

Doubt you could glue them on with anything. Better to find a local welder. Oh and any pellet hitting the same spot with a 3/8” kz @ 10 yds will eventually wear a hole through the paddle

 

[cavedweller]

Doubt you could glue them on with anything. Better to find a local welder. Oh and any pellet hitting the same spot with a 3/8” kz @ 10 yds will eventually wear a hole through the paddle

tell me it isn't so!
what about using AR15 hardened steel?
metallurgy is not my thing.

 

[rich177]

I think worrying about target damage from ANY pellet at under 20fb is silly. I have had some targets in service for well over 30 years and many are still in fine shape. I reconditioned a few targets from Delaware county a couple of years ago and I know those targets were well over thirty years old and got very hard use by being set fairly close and lots and lots of shooters. They showed no real pellet damage and just needed a good cleaning and repaint. Some of the less expensive targets will fail over time (Remington and Gamo) with constant use however I don't believe that is due to any particular pellet.
Two other points of interest;
The Gamo design is just a copy of an old English field target(probably using softer steel).
Replacement paddles are available for Gamo targets from Calvin Byers at Quality targets. I just got blanks and drilled them and turned them myself. (Even then, in over ten years of use I think I only replaced two paddles total on the Gamos).

 

[cavedweller]

I think worrying about target damage from ANY pellet at under 20fb is silly. I have had some targets in service for well over 30 years and many are still in fine shape. I reconditioned a few targets from Delaware county a couple of years ago and I know those targets were well over thirty years old and got very hard use by being set fairly close and lots and lots of shooters. They showed no real pellet damage and just needed a good cleaning and repaint. Some of the less expensive targets will fail over time (Remington and Gamo) with constant use however I don't believe that is due to any particular pellet.
Two other points of interest;
The Gamo design is just a copy of an old English field target(probably using softer steel).
Replacement paddles are available for Gamo targets from Calvin Byers at Quality targets. I just got blanks and drilled them and turned them myself. (Even then, in over ten years of use I think I only replaced two paddles total on the Gamos).

if i wasn't looking at the damage on very new gamo targets, i wouldn't mention it. But it's there. And it showed up immediate to the use of CHP pellets. I like the info for replacement paddles, i use Quality Target faceplates already but didn't know they had paddles.

 

[cavedweller]

FWIW, target damage/mortality is but one of MANY issues match directors have to deal with that most shooters never have to think about. As I consider the old Gamo field targets an excellent design, and easily serviced as well, but under-built in steel quality, I've rat-holed a collection of many extra face-plates. Unfortunately not so, replacement paddles.

My wish-list-

1) Obviously, replacement paddles.
2) Better yet, AR50 steel replacement paddles.
3) Also, AR50 steel face-plates.
4) Even better yet, field targets on the Gamo design, but built with AR50 paddles and face-plates.
5) Yet even betterer, #4 also with sear-engagement screws!

Given how many folks have built field targets themselves, often on their own design with varying degrees of success (and failure), I'd think someone could rip-off the Gamo design but produce targets with my wish-list items (relatively) easily enough. Especially if they forego creating a new design.

BTW, my post relates to 20 foot-pound targets; not extreme field targets.

@airngasman how many gamo paddles do you need? I’m going to place an order with Calvin at quality targets