Daisy 717 Keyholing at 10 yards

[MOSOSODBOB]

I had a Daisy 717 sent back to the factory for a rear sight replcemt and piston repair. It was not holding air. The gun had been unused for many years. It was a training tool I had when I was a competitive pistol shooter. I recently got involved in airguns and took it out of storage to tinker with. I mounted a dot sight and shot it at 10 yards along with my air rifles. I previously only shot indoors at approximately 5 yards(15 feet). No issues experienced.

I got on target surprisingly quickly and groups were centered up. I just noticed the impacts on paper were not round as compared to the hits from the rifles. I then discovered the pellets were keyholing. I shot a group on a fresh portion of the backstop and it was obvious.

Question: gun seems to function as it should. I added a few more drops of ND30 oil on the seals just to make sure the piston is functioning. I was unable to see and damage to the bore. I tried diffepellets ranging from 6.9 gr to 8.44. All diabolo WC or dome pellets. All will keyhole. Walking to to 10 feet, the keyhole effect lessens… but sttill there.

Send back to Daisy? Any gunsmithing local to Tacoma WA? It was originally tuned by Roddy T of Eugene OR.

 

[iAMzehTOASTY1]

odd...
Clean the barrel?
Maybe they put something in the barrel(oil?) For shipping?barrel snugged?*all screws tight? **Just throwing ideas to possibly help

 

[MOSOSODBOB]

odd...
Clean the barrel?
Maybe they put something in the barrel(oil?) For shipping?barrel snugged?*all screws tight? **Just throwing ideas to possibly help

I did that… ran a mop with JB and followed up with patches until relatively clean looking ones comes out…

My one option I haven’t tried is to take off the scope… I originally experimented with an older Aimpoint… just too heavy and made the gun unbalanced…. Got some spare red dot from my ARs… used that don’t think the clamping action of the mount should affect things… then, I don’t’ know

 

[Moog]

I know you said you checked the bore but did you look at the crown?

 

[iAMzehTOASTY1]

I did that… ran a mop with JB and followed up with patches until relatively clean looking ones comes out…

My one option I haven’t tried is to take off the scope… I originally experimented with an older Aimpoint… just too heavy and made the gun unbalanced…. Got some spare red dot from my ARs… used that don’t think the clamping action of the mount should affect things… then, I don’t’ know

View attachment 358855

Strange
I would try everything aside from taking it apart. If they just worked on it; I'd give them a call of all else fails

 

[MOSOSODBOB]

I know you said you checked the bore but did you look at the crown?

Yes… not looking like my Anschutz… but no nicks or obvious defects… to me it was just a short range “pellet gun”… used for strengthening my hold and trigger control … for my Bullseye matches back in the days… the fit and finish is what I expected from a plastic and pot metal gun… then this gun was a good shooter… surprisingly it is still good enough to hold black at ten yards with keyholing pellets… on both the rife and pistol targets…

 

[ba49]

I would check your velocity with a crony. I'm guessing your fps is low. You should be over 350fps. Also check the lever height from the frame when it is not cocked, the lever should be around 1 1/2" from the frame when laying it on it's right side before you feel resistance to close it. There are online instructions on how to adjust this gap. It is how you adjust the velocity. Also maybe the pellet diameter is off. Make sure the barrel is clean. Could also be a bad oring in the compression chamber from sitting dry so long. Easy to replace and you could get them at any hardware store. Be very careful with the foam oil retainer as they dryrot and fall apart and they don't make the originals anymore. Also I don't think the factory repairs them anymore. I thing they will give you names of places that do repairs on them.

 

[Moog]

Ok one more idea. Load a pellet into the chamber and then unload it and see if the pellet appears deformed. Maybe something is stuck in the chamber of maybe their is some damage to the chamber.

 

[MOSOSODBOB]

I would check your velocity with a crony. I'm guessing your fps is low. You should be over 350fps. Also check the lever height from the frame when it is not cocked, the lever should be around 1 1/2" from the frame when laying it on it's right side before you feel resistance to close it. There are online instructions on how to adjust this gap. It is how you adjust the velocity. Also maybe the pellet diameter is off. Make sure the barrel is clean. Could also be a bad oring in the compression chamber from sitting dry so long. Easy to replace and you could get them at any hardware store. Be very careful with the foam oil retainer as they dryrot and fall apart and they don't make the originals anymore. Also I don't think the factory repairs them anymore. I thing they will give you names of places that do repairs on them.

Good Points! Been meaning to set up an older spare chrony just for airguns… good reason to do it now…Been a few years since the gun been back to the factory… do you know any smiths who works on Daisys?

 

[MOSOSODBOB]

Ok one more idea. Load a pellet into the chamber and then unload it and see if the pellet appears deformed. Maybe something is stuck in the chamber of maybe their is some damage to the chamber.

Guess one would use a rod from the mz end and push it back out…

 

[dv8eod]

I think I would push a pellet through and see if you feel anything odd to start. Then look at it to see if there is any weird deformations.

 

[Moog]

Guess one would use a rod from the mz end and push it back out…

Sorry I've never had a 717 so I'm not sure.

 

[MOSOSODBOB]

I think I would push a pellet through and see if you feel anything odd to start. Then look at it to see if there is any weird deformations.

Do it from the mz end is only way possible … my tight patching seems smooth when I cleaned the bbl… that was one of the first thing I check when the key hole was noticed…. Will try a pellet… hope damn thing don’t get stuck… and what deformation I see is not from ramming pellet thru the bore…

 

[dv8eod]

Start at the chamber and push out the muzzle. It will tell you where the loose spots are inside the barrel and where the choke begins and if there are any burrs on the way out.
I think ba49 had it right with needing adjustment, especially after having it worked on.

 

[MOSOSODBOB]

Sorry I've never had a 717 so I'm not sure.

Your recommendations are based on key hole effects from another gun? Did you fix the problem?

 

[MOSOSODBOB]

Start at the chamber and push out the muzzle. It will tell you where the loose spots are inside the barrel and where the choke begins and if there are any burrs on the way out.
I think ba49 had it right with needing adjustment, especially after having it worked on.

Can’t do it that way with this gun… will shoot a few into a stock tank with water tomorrow and look at the recovered pellets… never done ballistic forensic on pellet guns before… this will be discovery learning

 

[dv8eod]

As an aside, the oil retainer can be made from a piece of open cell foam packaging. You have to trim it thin, cut it to circumference, and super glue the ends together.
The toughest part is cutting it thin enough without mucking it up.

 

[Moog]

Your recommendations are based on key hole effects from another gun? Did you fix the problem?

I've never had a keyholing problem. Since you have tried different pellets I can only assume something is damaging the pellet before it leaves the barrel.

 

[Felinis]

I had a Daisy 717 sent back to the factory for a rear sight replcemt and piston repair. It was not holding air. The gun had been unused for many years. It was a training tool I had when I was a competitive pistol shooter. I recently got involved in airguns and took it out of storage to tinker with. I mounted a dot sight and shot it at 10 yards along with my air rifles. I previously only shot indoors at approximately 5 yards(15 feet). No issues experienced.

I got on target surprisingly quickly and groups were centered up. I just noticed the impacts on paper were not round as compared to the hits from the rifles. I then discovered the pellets were keyholing. I shot a group on a fresh portion of the backstop and it was obvious.

Question: gun seems to function as it should. I added a few more drops of ND30 oil on the seals just to make sure the piston is functioning. I was unable to see and damage to the bore. I tried diffepellets ranging from 6.9 gr to 8.44. All diabolo WC or dome pellets. All will keyhole. Walking to to 10 feet, the keyhole effect lessens… but sttill there.

Send back to Daisy? Any gunsmithing local to Tacoma WA? It was originally tuned by Roddy T of Eugene OR.

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I assume that "keyholing" is just another term for tumbling. Tumbling happens at low fps or with smooth barrels.

Could they have replaced your old barrel with a smooth BB barrel when you took the pistol in for service?

Have you chronographed it yet?

 

[beerthief]

the 717 is a very low FPE 3.5 or something close, strictly a 10 meter gun . Thin paper targets rip and look like keyholing . stiffer (cardstock targets can produce nice round holes with wadcutter pellets .