Daisy 717 Keyholing at 10 yards
- Thread starter MOSOSODBOB
- Start date
I used RWS R10 7.7 gr, HN 7.4 pistol match, and RWS Hobby 7.4gr, RWS HP 6.9gr and also some 7.4gr DDR pellets… all key hole… targets used are American Standard NRA approved tag board targets… used in registered matches… given the number of irregular shape holes, more likely than not the pellets are tumbling in flight… will see if I have good rifling contact and if velocity is up to spec…. My bore scope is too large to check this barrell… hope my cheaters will let me see … but thinking running a patch or plug to feel for irregularities be the best course for now… or just shoot at short range… it is accurate enough to hold inside the black centerThe 717 is generally a reliable pistol. I have found the pellet that works the best in underpowered air pistols, like the 717, is the JSB Match Diabolo, light weight in the green tin.
Better quality targets will also help determine to what extent the pistol velocity is causing the pellet to tumble upon impact....
10 Meter Air Pistol Targets (250/pk) — Kruger Premium Targets
10 Meter Air Pistol Target Distance: 10 meters Size: 6.69” x 6.69” Packing unit: 250 targetswww.krugerpremiumtargets.com
I bought a Diana 5 a few years ago that the seller said would not shoot. I took it home and tried about 20 shots and compression returned. I then started shooting about 20 shots every day for a week, and now it shoots fine. Perhaps just shooting the 717 pistol and cycling it will bed in the new parts?
Anyway, my 2 cents worth..
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Just shot my 777 over the crony with JSB Match Diablos 7.44 grains at 393 fps. average for 5 shots with the cocking lever set at 1 3/8" from the frame uncocked. Did you measure yours yet? It should be fairly close if it was rebuilt. That is about right for a healthy 717. mine shoots the RWS Hobbys 7. grains about 385fps. I have a spare used Daisy barrel in good shape if you need it.
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just shot it again a bit ago… and you reminded me to check … with my calibrated eyeball, it seems to be around the 1.25 mark… got results now… will post later when on a computer
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it sounds like it has no power, not that they are that fast anyway
to gain power make sure the piston head is adjusted right other than that it has no adjustment
it is a pull valve system and there are 3 springs in the trigger group 2 torsion spring and a heavy compression spring that pulls the valve open, if that spring has been replaced for some odd reason that could be the problem but i hardly think so
the valve is what it is the trigger assembly as it comes from the factory can are do anything
so, look these are simple pistols i own 6 of them
once you put the front of the gun together with the pump handle and pump head in the tube and put the front sight on and screw the front together loosely, you slide the barrel end and valve in the tube and after that you put the right shell in place take the trigger group and hook the valve the position the silver block sear ahead of the bolt- it has to be ahead of the bolt -and with the sight in place the left shell goes on and the 3 screws adjust and tests
if the barrel is not damaged, hard to believe it would be and the seals, two number 115 Orings are sealing the tube, the valve is not leaking at the stem or valve face, you should be fine
you can shoot into a hanging old shirt to collect the pellets and look at them for what i have no idea, damage
a bit odd
to gain power make sure the piston head is adjusted right other than that it has no adjustment
it is a pull valve system and there are 3 springs in the trigger group 2 torsion spring and a heavy compression spring that pulls the valve open, if that spring has been replaced for some odd reason that could be the problem but i hardly think so
the valve is what it is the trigger assembly as it comes from the factory can are do anything
so, look these are simple pistols i own 6 of them
once you put the front of the gun together with the pump handle and pump head in the tube and put the front sight on and screw the front together loosely, you slide the barrel end and valve in the tube and after that you put the right shell in place take the trigger group and hook the valve the position the silver block sear ahead of the bolt- it has to be ahead of the bolt -and with the sight in place the left shell goes on and the 3 screws adjust and tests
if the barrel is not damaged, hard to believe it would be and the seals, two number 115 Orings are sealing the tube, the valve is not leaking at the stem or valve face, you should be fine
you can shoot into a hanging old shirt to collect the pellets and look at them for what i have no idea, damage
a bit odd
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you got good ideas… shooting into a shirt is probably better than shooting into a bucket of water… dud that this morning and the impact into water bent the pellets and even flattened the dome pellets I was using…
will post my findings later
will post my findings later
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so, could you install a smooth bore barrel on a 7-7 yes if you took the time and had a lathe so there is no chance that has happened
would shooting the gun more solve the problem NO the Diana 5-6 use piston seals that need to settle in but the 7-7's use just a 115 Oring and with a Oring it seals or not
now is the gun building pressure when it should, to build the amount needed to reach the 350-380 FPS that is a question a chronograph would tell you
if the pistol is shooting at 250 the pellets might just lose their stability and start tumbling
could the crown be damaged, that can be done by just looking at it and using the Q-tip test
the pellets he showed are dark and look old but he stated that many pellets were tried with the same results
so, when this pistol was sent in to be rebuilt was it tested with both a chronograph and the observation of how the pellets used cut paper
so, there is an ear test, it is not scientific but useful
do you hear one sound at firing or two
when the pistol is shooting slow you would hear 2, one at the pull of the trigger and one at the time of impact
so many questions but few solution
there is one last question, is it leaking enough from cocking to firing that makes a difference and that can be tested by cocking and sitting aside for an hour
these can leak from 3 places rear of the tube, the valve stem and the valve seat
one comes out the tube
one comes out the stem of the valve, there is a number 005 Oring there, the top has an Oring but that would not likely leak
and the one come out the barrel
all leaks can be found with a big bowl of water and pressurizing the tube
if you are lucky, it will be the 115 Oring leaking and if you cannot get that to stop 1 round of white plumbers' tape will solve it most times
so just some insight i know these pistols well
would shooting the gun more solve the problem NO the Diana 5-6 use piston seals that need to settle in but the 7-7's use just a 115 Oring and with a Oring it seals or not
now is the gun building pressure when it should, to build the amount needed to reach the 350-380 FPS that is a question a chronograph would tell you
if the pistol is shooting at 250 the pellets might just lose their stability and start tumbling
could the crown be damaged, that can be done by just looking at it and using the Q-tip test
the pellets he showed are dark and look old but he stated that many pellets were tried with the same results
so, when this pistol was sent in to be rebuilt was it tested with both a chronograph and the observation of how the pellets used cut paper
so, there is an ear test, it is not scientific but useful
do you hear one sound at firing or two
when the pistol is shooting slow you would hear 2, one at the pull of the trigger and one at the time of impact
so many questions but few solution
there is one last question, is it leaking enough from cocking to firing that makes a difference and that can be tested by cocking and sitting aside for an hour
these can leak from 3 places rear of the tube, the valve stem and the valve seat
one comes out the tube
one comes out the stem of the valve, there is a number 005 Oring there, the top has an Oring but that would not likely leak
and the one come out the barrel
all leaks can be found with a big bowl of water and pressurizing the tube
if you are lucky, it will be the 115 Oring leaking and if you cannot get that to stop 1 round of white plumbers' tape will solve it most times
so just some insight i know these pistols well
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Bottom Line Up Front:
Performed many of the tasks suggested/recommended and determined no further actions warranted. Gun is performing to the standards needed, regardless of the tumbling effect of the pellet in flight or not.
Conducted the following to test assumptions:
Recalling a comment that thin paper targets can tear instead of being cut by the pellets, I placed strips of masking tape to shoot some test shots. I fired several at different parts of the target using WC shaped pellets. Of the shots fired, they all appeared to hit squarely as designed. No obvious tumbling (keyholing) noted.
Took gun outside and shot under cover at 7 yards. I used 7.4gr diabolo WC pistol target pellets. I shot under a semi enclosed patio to eliminate the possible effects of wind. Fired two 10 shot strings. All appears to have no tumbling effect. They were centered up and appeared to have cut clean round holes.
I then moved to the outdoor range and shot it at the 10m distance where I first noticed the keyholed impacts. I shot a ten shot string. A few had nice clean round cut holes, but all had tearing of some sort. The group were centered and I was able to make adjustments to hit my aim point.
Conclusion:
Gun is working good enough. Could be factors in play that I am unaware of. The gun may benefit from modifications or services that I am not doing. Bottom line, good enough for me. Going to just shoot it.
Thanks again to everyone for your input. I hope I contributed to the forum with my lessons learned.
Performed many of the tasks suggested/recommended and determined no further actions warranted. Gun is performing to the standards needed, regardless of the tumbling effect of the pellet in flight or not.
Conducted the following to test assumptions:
- cleaned bore - using JB bore paste and clean patches
- Lubricants applied as needed
- Inspected crown and chamber of the barrel
- Patched bore for obvious defects (smoothness)
- Collected fired pellets for examination
- “Slugged” bore with pellets for examination
- Checked for loosen parts
- Checked for seal leakage
- Validated correct pump setting
- Check for velocity. No chronograph, just guessing the velocity based on impacts on the bullet trap and the mentioned 2 hit sounds.
- No apparent damage to crown or leade
- Chamber area was dirty with oil
- Bore felt smooth when ran with a tight patch and felt cleaning pellets
- Pellets were fired into a tank of water and recovered. Clear rifling marks on both the head and skirt. Obvious impact defects (damage) observed on all of the pellets. No real value gained.
- Slugged bore with pellets with basically same results as fired pellets. Obvious rifling marks. Limited forensic training and capabilities made this also of no real value.
- Velocity appears sufficient. Pellets fired into a bullet trap were flattened similarly to others at operating velocity. At the 10 yard line, did heard impact of pellets after shot fired. Can’t really use that data.
- No apparent seal leakage. Seal “sucking” sound heard when pumping and no sounds of air leaks heard when cocked (pumped). Did not do the “wait a bit” of time check technique or dunk gun in water to see if there were leakage.
Recalling a comment that thin paper targets can tear instead of being cut by the pellets, I placed strips of masking tape to shoot some test shots. I fired several at different parts of the target using WC shaped pellets. Of the shots fired, they all appeared to hit squarely as designed. No obvious tumbling (keyholing) noted.
Took gun outside and shot under cover at 7 yards. I used 7.4gr diabolo WC pistol target pellets. I shot under a semi enclosed patio to eliminate the possible effects of wind. Fired two 10 shot strings. All appears to have no tumbling effect. They were centered up and appeared to have cut clean round holes.
I then moved to the outdoor range and shot it at the 10m distance where I first noticed the keyholed impacts. I shot a ten shot string. A few had nice clean round cut holes, but all had tearing of some sort. The group were centered and I was able to make adjustments to hit my aim point.
Conclusion:
Gun is working good enough. Could be factors in play that I am unaware of. The gun may benefit from modifications or services that I am not doing. Bottom line, good enough for me. Going to just shoot it.
Thanks again to everyone for your input. I hope I contributed to the forum with my lessons learned.
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I tried many of these points you made… posted my findings… thank you for the insights… was very helpful
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in the future if you need to try some pellets i would say 7 gr are the way to go
i shoot RWS R-10 in all my pistols but hobby could work as well
you have done your best and it seems it is shooting better
the Daisy 7-7 pistols are a pistol that if it is not broken you cannot fix it but they are a fun pistol to have
i shoot RWS R-10 in all my pistols but hobby could work as well
you have done your best and it seems it is shooting better
the Daisy 7-7 pistols are a pistol that if it is not broken you cannot fix it but they are a fun pistol to have
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@MOSOSODBOB - Nice write up and conclusions. Enjoy your pistol. I have had very good results with these pellets in all my pistols, I recommend them.
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I noticed that ,on my 717 , the piston can screw in and out , shorten or lengthen the travel . this will effect the pressure build up. i unintentionally shortened the piston and thus dropped the pressure . the cheap china crono's are not much $ maybe 1.5 tins of pellets .
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the cocking lever is easy to adjust
leave the breech alone, open the cocking handle it should sit 1.5 inches from the tip of the handle to the left clam shell and the adjustment might be as little as 1/8 of a turn of the piston head
wide blade screwdriver is needed
the adjustment is as much for the pressure, as it is to have the handle being held correctly
leave the breech alone, open the cocking handle it should sit 1.5 inches from the tip of the handle to the left clam shell and the adjustment might be as little as 1/8 of a turn of the piston head
wide blade screwdriver is needed
the adjustment is as much for the pressure, as it is to have the handle being held correctly
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I have the better version, the Daisy 747. It is very accurate, a great trigger, and a bargain. It has the Lothar barrel.
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You need to try the 777, It has the adjustable trigger, a milled steel cocking lever. wooden target grips, and the best part, a steel rear sight with and adjustable width notch.
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