Damaged Skirt Pellet Testing

Thanks for shooting the pellet into the water @Sqwirlfugger57 That was a really interesting test! The skirt is perfect after being fired...minus the rifling, of course. How many foot pounds was the gun you tested with running at? Also, what was the plenum pressure? I have a little Beeman P17 that is putting out a whopping 2.4FPE that I wonder if it will put the skirt back to concentricity like yours did?
 
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Thanks for shooting the pellet into the water @Sqwirlfugger57 That was a really interesting test! The skirt is perfect after being fired...minus the rifling, of course. How many foot pounds was the gun you tested with running at? Also, what was the plenum pressure? I have a little Beeman P17 that is putting out a whopping 2.4FPE that I wonder if it will put the skirt back to concentricity like yours did?
No problem. Sitting at home with Covid so needed something to keep me occupied haha. It was a 10.5fpe HW97K. I would have used my TX from the original test (same power output) but its currently on the work bench.
 
No problem. Sitting at home with Covid so needed something to keep me occupied haha. It was a 10.5fpe HW97K. I would have used my TX from the original test (same power output) but its currently on the work bench.
Sorry about the COVID!, but appreciate the test and the reply.

Your test was an interesting data point, nonetheless. My gun was putting out around 26FPE and obviously reformed the skirts on the way out. My plenum is really high on that gun at 2900PSI, so that skirt is getting hit really hard, but my valve stroke is pretty short. That was why I expected a drop in velocity, but not at all, so the skirt reformed instantly. I imagine that using a springer, like you did, gave a similar experience to the pellet by getting hit hard initially. Very interesting... :unsure:
 
Accuracy at a somewhat short Zero Range is one thing .... at distance where VERTICAL dispersion shows up due too Velocity differences would be more telling in such testing.

Like to see CHRONY data of Perfect verses Damaged as it would somewhat complete this conversation.

Thats a good point. Just ran 2x 10 shot strings for a comparison. That did show a significant change between the two skirt types.

PERFECT SKIRTS:

20230103_132645.jpg


DAMAGED/FLATTENED SKIRTS:

Screenshot_20230103-132912_FX Radar.jpg
 
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Just ran 2x 10 shot strings for a comparison. That did show a significant change between the two skirt types.
Good stuff. For what it’s worth, over the last few years I’ve done a similar experiment a few different times and the velocity loss was always noticeable. Fairly pronounced for the skirts that were pressed into a significant oval like the ones you photographed in the original post. So I wouldn’t use those for anything that mattered like pest control, not even at 25-30 yards. And not even after flaring out the skirts. Flaring seemed to work pretty well, as in it restored the nominal velocity and made them group as well as those with nice round skirts except for roughly 1 out of 10 that would go wide of the group. I don’t know if that can be blamed on an inadequate repair, or perhaps whatever originally caused the bent skirt also caused some imperceptible damage to the head. So perfectly fine for casual stuff but not trustworthy enough to pick up and load for shot 5 of what is a stellar 4-shot bughole.

That’s how I view the bent-into-an-oval examples. At the other end of the spectrum are thin-skirted, soft lead JSBs like the 15.9gr that would sometimes arrive with a large percentage of skirts just barely out of round or with little ripples in the skirt perimeter. Probably not enough for most people to notice but enough to make me suspicious so after painstakingly reshaping an entire tin one time, I realized my time would have been better spent testing them. I was surprised that I could distinguish no difference at 30 or 50 yards so I’ve relaxed my suspicions a bit these days when I run into a tin like that. But not completely…the doubt always manages to elbow its way in.

“Trust, but verify”
 
Good stuff. For what it’s worth, over the last few years I’ve done a similar experiment a few different times and the velocity loss was always noticeable. Fairly pronounced for the skirts that were pressed into a significant oval like the ones you photographed in the original post. So I wouldn’t use those for anything that mattered like pest control, not even at 25-30 yards. And not even after flaring out the skirts. Flaring seemed to work pretty well, as in it restored the nominal velocity and made them group as well as those with nice round skirts except for roughly 1 out of 10 that would go wide of the group. I don’t know if that can be blamed on an inadequate repair, or perhaps whatever originally caused the bent skirt also caused some imperceptible damage to the head. So perfectly fine for casual stuff but not trustworthy enough to pick up and load for shot 5 of what is a stellar 4-shot bughole.

That’s how I view the bent-into-an-oval examples. At the other end of the spectrum are thin-skirted, soft lead JSBs like the 15.9gr that would sometimes arrive with a large percentage of skirts just barely out of round or with little ripples in the skirt perimeter. Probably not enough for most people to notice but enough to make me suspicious so after painstakingly reshaping an entire tin one time, I realized my time would have been better spent testing them. I was surprised that I could distinguish no difference at 30 or 50 yards so I’ve relaxed my suspicions a bit these days when I run into a tin like that. But not completely…the doubt always manages to elbow its way in.

“Trust, but verify”
Thats pretty much exactly what I noticed too. Pellets with skirts with a ding in one side stayed pretty close to the normal velocity but once I started shooting pellets with two damaged sides I really started seeing wild readings. For what its worth, the pellets I used for this test were significantly worse than what I would typically find in a tin. Ive pretty much convinced myself that wasting pellets for general shooting applications is just a waste of money. If it's close, it goes.
 
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Ive pretty much convinced myself that wasting pellets for general shooting applications is just a waste of money. If it's close, it goes.
Sounds good to me after conducting this experiment myself. Here are the numbers that my pellets put up:
BentSkirtPelletsVsGoodSkirts_VelocityComparrison_2023-01-02.jpg


This includes my "fliers" even though I mentioned that they sounded different, and I suspect that it had something to do with freezing.

I think that it is pretty safe to say that I didn't experience a significant difference in velocity, but as I mentioned, my plenum is running really high on that gun, so it could be "fixed" right after pulling the trigger.

I'm interested in getting your feedback.
 
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Hey, they’re your crappy pellets. Shoot ‘em if you want to.
Even JSB's with bent skirts are grouping better than FX or Air Arms with the exact same pellet weight in my particular gun with my barrel. Your position is pretty ridiculous with respect to this thread:

Bad skirts on the right with a 1.0625"c-c:
20230102_163716.jpg


Comparison between JSB (0.50"c-c), FX (1.675"c-c), AA (1.75"c-c), and H&N (0.875"c-c):
20230102_140952.jpg
 
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Even JSB's with bent skirts are grouping better than FX or Air Arms with the exact same pellet weight in my particular gun with my barrel. Your position is pretty ridiculous with respect to this thread:

Bad skirts on the right with a 1.0625"c-c:
View attachment 319927

Comparison between JSB (0.50"c-c), FX (1.675"c-c), AA (1.75"c-c), and H&N (0.875"c-c):
View attachment 319928
Like I said, chief, shoot your damaged turd pellets all you want. I’ll keep throwing mine out and getting no flyers in any of my groups.
 
Sounds good to me after conducting this experiment myself. Here are the numbers that my pellets put up:
View attachment 319919

This includes my "fliers" even though I mentioned that they sounded different, and I suspect that it had something to do with freezing.

I think that it is pretty safe to say that I didn't experience a significant difference in velocity, but as I mentioned, my plenum is running really high on that gun, so it could be "fixed" right after pulling the trigger.

I'm interested in getting your feedback.
I'm a bit curious as to why your non-dented skirts numbers are that high. The spread and deviation seem to be higher than what I would expect from most guns. What gun are you using here? (Sorry if you mentioned that already)
 
I'm a bit curious as to why your non-dented skirts numbers are that high. The spread and deviation seem to be higher than what I would expect from most guns. What gun are you using here? (Sorry if you mentioned that already)
I was surprised that my spread was that high too. It is a really modified 2240 that is PCP. It was really cold when I did this, and my spread definitely goes up when it is below freezing outside, so I figure it was just moisture. I mentioned this on a thread a year or so ago. Even though the spread will increase in the cold, the POI doesn't seem to be affected...much.
 
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I was surprised that my spread was that high too. It is a really modified 2240 that is PCP. It was really cold when I did this, and my spread definitely goes up when it is below freezing outside, so I figure it was just moisture. I mentioned this on a thread a year or so ago. Even though the spread will increase in the cold, the POI doesn't seem to be affected...much.
That I can't really help you with unfortunately. On a custom built 2240 those numbers really don't seem terrible to me honestly but I really don't know what should be expected.
 
The ~30fps ES could have many possible contributors, alone or in combination.

Some of the more common ones:
  1. [temperature-related] oil or grease on the hammer
  2. subtle sear drag - Crosman’s direct sear on the 2240 is pretty susceptible
  3. hammer / tube galling - also common on Crosman guns, but mostly associated with heavy aftermarket hammer springs
  4. state of tune - is the gun regulated and adjusted to the velocity knee?
 
Way to contribute, as always, @nervoustrig

After getting those flyers for this experiment, I had that gun on my bench so that I could take it apart and look inside the valve and clean the path for the hammer and all that. That said, my son wanted to have some trigger time today, so who was I to refuse a request like that?, so I charged it back up. He too said that it was acting a little inconsistent. It was about 22F outside, so we only practiced for about an hour, but the gun got really cold.

state of tune - is the gun regulated and adjusted to the velocity knee?
I'm running this gun a little low on the knee. It's regulated pretty high at 2900PSI. I'm currently shooting 15.89gr pellets at 875FPS (ish) and the max is achieved using 18.13gr at the same velocity. That is all this gun has after that. 31FPE is all this gun is capable of unless I completely gut it again, and I don't think I am going there. I get well over 100 shots at the 27FPE that I keep it tuned at, and that makes me happy. Nuff said.

Again, I appreciate your input @nervoustrig !
 
I'm running this gun a little low on the knee.
10-4! If it's doing what you want it to do, there's no reason to chase an ever smaller extreme spread. A 4% ES is generally regarded as fine for shooting out to 50 yards and it's under that (30/875 = 3.4%).

But in terms of running a gun low on the knee, on occasion I'll run a gun super lean on purpose...much closer to something approaching valve lock. Makes for a super quiet report and very sedate shot cycle that is great for something like discreet pest control in the suburbs or peaceful shooting in the basement. The ES stinks but at close ranges, say 10 - 30 yards, it's not enough to matter for many situations.
 
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If you have that many bent pellets then you need to get them from a different distributor.
It's a touch hard to do when they all come from the same manufacturer in sealed tins. Some tins are pristine others, not so much. I've got a tin of AA's .22 Diablos that are ..guessing...15% bent, others tins have been close to perfect.
 
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I too have had a bunch of pellets with bent skirts. In the past, I would just toss them in the trash, but the last batch that I got had nearly 10% of the pellets that had small issues at least. I didn't want to toss 50 pellets in a tin, so I have been firing them lately at the cans on my range, and I didn't notice a remarkable difference in the performance...especially not to justify throwing the pellets away. I did a test myself of "good" pellets versus those with bent skirts at 50 yards. Here is a video of the test:

Just to note, here are the pellets with good skirts:
View attachment 319573

Here are the pellets with bent skirts that I shot:
View attachment 319574

Here is a picture of the final results:
View attachment 319575

I got a very slightly better center-to-center grouping from the bent pellets than the good pellets. I got 1.125" spread on the good pellets, and 1.0625" on the bent pellets. The most notable thing is that the POI was pretty consistently shifted low and to the right.

Believe it or not, I didn't notice a remarkable difference in the velocity between the bent pellets and the "good" ones. I expected the velocity to be lower with the bent skirts, and that wasn't the case.

I wouldn't want to shoot these at a competition, especially at the BenchRest, but for plinking, they may through off your POI a bit, but there is no reason to trash these if you are just shooting for your own pleasure. I thought they would be WAY off, but this is not the case.

I hope that this is interesting to my airgunning brothers and sisters.

Cheers!

Jonathan
Looks like they penetrated the boards about the same... ;)
 
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