I did mention it a few times when we were talking about the oring and I think we were on different pages. I'll call you on a video call with my DW and walk you through it... Sorry about that.
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Daystate Delta Wolf terrible groups.
- Thread starter Yorkie
- Start date
Pretty sure you got a lemon. I've always had highly positive dealings with Daystate over the years.
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Ok... this is not how I REALLY wanted to spend several hours but Scott's problem and solution has me concerned.
So it took quite a bit of trial and error to achieve a setup that had no error itself. This is what it looks like.
Note the support under the front of the frame... couldn't or wouldn't squeeze it tight enough in the vise to keep deflection and return to zero issues with the FRAME
So the net result was 0.0005 of rtz error up or down with about 0.010 of deflection in each test. The barrel protrudes 11" from the frame where I was measuring. If my attempt at remembering trig was correct, that yielded 0.15 moa of potential error which is less than a 22 pellet size at 100 yds. That was with the factory oring front support.
In this second pic, note the plastic shim protruding from the frame where the barrel is. I measured an 0.042" difference in size between the hole in the frame and barrel diameter. I found the tube in the pic to be 0.0205 thick and cut a piece to fit between the barrel and frame. It was tight getting the barrel in.
I tested 3 times with and without the shim and the results were pretty consistent. It was zero rtz error with the shim and 0.0005 without it.
The takeaway to me is that if you're searching for incremental gains in accuracy, there MAY be some to be had here but most of us will not be able to discriminate that amount of error... between ammo issues, wind, technique, etc.
As has already been discussed, it seems that Scott may have other issues and that he got improved results with the printed brace should point to the area.
This is not a pencil sized barrel but 15mm in diameter and is supported reasonably well in the middle. There really should be no flex or bump issues. For a comparison, the Red Wolf is a 23" long 15mm barrel that's held on one end and it doesn't suffer those problems.
Hope this may help,
Bob
So it took quite a bit of trial and error to achieve a setup that had no error itself. This is what it looks like.
Note the support under the front of the frame... couldn't or wouldn't squeeze it tight enough in the vise to keep deflection and return to zero issues with the FRAME
So the net result was 0.0005 of rtz error up or down with about 0.010 of deflection in each test. The barrel protrudes 11" from the frame where I was measuring. If my attempt at remembering trig was correct, that yielded 0.15 moa of potential error which is less than a 22 pellet size at 100 yds. That was with the factory oring front support.
In this second pic, note the plastic shim protruding from the frame where the barrel is. I measured an 0.042" difference in size between the hole in the frame and barrel diameter. I found the tube in the pic to be 0.0205 thick and cut a piece to fit between the barrel and frame. It was tight getting the barrel in.
I tested 3 times with and without the shim and the results were pretty consistent. It was zero rtz error with the shim and 0.0005 without it.
The takeaway to me is that if you're searching for incremental gains in accuracy, there MAY be some to be had here but most of us will not be able to discriminate that amount of error... between ammo issues, wind, technique, etc.
As has already been discussed, it seems that Scott may have other issues and that he got improved results with the printed brace should point to the area.
This is not a pencil sized barrel but 15mm in diameter and is supported reasonably well in the middle. There really should be no flex or bump issues. For a comparison, the Red Wolf is a 23" long 15mm barrel that's held on one end and it doesn't suffer those problems.
Hope this may help,
Bob
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Azrover,
The rifle in your test fixture is missing the block between the shroud and receiver. The block that contains the contacts for the chronograph. As Centercut explained (and I understood it) I believe it’s when there is a tight contact at that interface, the barrel does not return to center after it is deflected. Mikes solution was to space it out some so it can recenter after it moves. My solution was to make it so it won’t move.
As long as the o-ring pushes the barrel back to within .0005”, then next shot should be good. Mine was about .014”. I’ll also see about spacing things out to see how that works.
The rifle in your test fixture is missing the block between the shroud and receiver. The block that contains the contacts for the chronograph. As Centercut explained (and I understood it) I believe it’s when there is a tight contact at that interface, the barrel does not return to center after it is deflected. Mikes solution was to space it out some so it can recenter after it moves. My solution was to make it so it won’t move.
As long as the o-ring pushes the barrel back to within .0005”, then next shot should be good. Mine was about .014”. I’ll also see about spacing things out to see how that works.
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I know nothing about Daystate… I just bought my first FX Impact M3 and that dealer is foc! Mine shot unbelievable well with two different pellets and hasn’t shot poor with anything. I’d buy another FX in a heartbeat.
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We generally loosen the collar with the barrel installed and tight. Then insert a standard business card thickness between the collar and the frame (on each side), then tighten the collar. My .25 when I had it had very bad POI shifts until I did that, it came from the factory with the collar tight against the frame, but that was one of the first ones here in the USA. Mine also was missing the 15x3mm oring where the barrel enters the frame, which exacerbated the POI shift. I used a 75/80 duro Viton oring, which gave a snug fit. I tried a 90 duro oring but the barrel wouldn't slide in very easily, so I settled on the 75/80 Viton. I should have called you Scott instead of texting, my bad... My current .30 Delta Wolf has zero (as far as I can tell) POI shift... I'm still interested in your barrel clamp...
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Scott, I took the block out because it gives no support to the barrel and should only have the tension from the contacts creating any force on the barrel collar. I don't have a way to measure that small of force. It was purely for convenience in installing the shim. I mentioned, but didn't elaborate on, the difficulty I had in setting up the test so that it would only measure the movement of the barrel. I could actually get 0.002" of deflection on the frame itself when moving the barrel and it was clamped with considerable force in the mill vice. I don't have any idea of your measuring setup but for me, it was difficult to isolate to just barrel movement in the frame.
I'm sure you'll find the source of the problem but when you mentioned that large of movement attributed to the oring, I just had to see it for myself.
One thing I can't remember... is it the 17 or 23" barrel. Just curious... it shouldn't matter. I've campaigned the 17" with standard rifling as it seems to be very accurate with a variety of pellets and I know @Franklink's Ghost also has that one.
Bob
I'm sure you'll find the source of the problem but when you mentioned that large of movement attributed to the oring, I just had to see it for myself.
One thing I can't remember... is it the 17 or 23" barrel. Just curious... it shouldn't matter. I've campaigned the 17" with standard rifling as it seems to be very accurate with a variety of pellets and I know @Franklink's Ghost also has that one.
Bob
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Also, you mention making it where it couldn't move. I'm not sure what the force is from the frame expanding more than the barrel, but your barrel clamp arrangement couldn't begin to cope with that when it's actually happening. It's enough to flex the 15mm barrel considerably. It really does need no contact except the electrical connections.
Bob
Bob
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Yes, Ghost (same platform) came to me with a 17 inch .177, 12 land and groove LW barrel. With 10.34s it'll stack em at 30 yards (all touching) and 10 shot groups @ 55 yards average around 0.7-0.8inches. Occasionally it'd put 10 into less than 1/2 an inch at 55 yards. That was with a speed of 890-900fps. With the JSB 10.34s, it seems to hold pretty good until 910-915+ and then accuracy started to fade. Same barrel also did really well with JSB 8.44 and 13.4grainers. There were a couple different flavors of H&N in the 9-13grain range that all shot well. Actually everything in that range shot well enough to shoot a FT match with (probably b/c it was tuned for that weight of pellet). It was accurate enough that I'm actually kinda excited to get around to shooting it as a .177 some more (currently playing with a 23inch polygonal .22).
Hope you get the kinks worked out Scott. When it comes to tuning and tinkering you're more skilled than most of us so I'm sure you'll get it sorted.
Hope you get the kinks worked out Scott. When it comes to tuning and tinkering you're more skilled than most of us so I'm sure you'll get it sorted.
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No complaints about accuracy, at least not yet. I guess the shifting POI issue is not a problem if it's just bench rest where sighter shots can be taken once at the bench, and then don't touch/bump the barrel during the match. What I want is a rifle that I can bump around at least a little and have the same POI.
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I'm restraining that end of the barrel from up/down/left/right. Not so much axially. If the different expansion rates (steel vs aluminum) create enough axial force, something will slip axially. It's good so far. I'll need to experience using it under more conditions though.
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I'm a new member and interested in your nordicwolf. I own fx rifles and have alot of optics. Titans and frontiers,nf,ect.. I'd like to talk with you about the grs stock
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