Daystate DayState electronic actions deep dive

[Regal_US]

This is pretty technical series of questions about DayState Alpha/Delta Wolf versus earlier generation Air Wolf and Red Wolf electronic rifles.

I own an AirWolf with a HeliBoard which is a wonderful rifle. I believe the Red Wolf shares a similar design in which the rifle's computer uses a transducer to measure the pressure in the rifle's bottle during a shot string. Software in the AirWolf / RedWolf then uses a lookup table (MCT) to adjust some combination of capacitor voltage and discharge time, that in combination, hit the hammer to give a consistent energy per shot as the bottle pressure drops.

In the new Alpha/Delta Wolf rifles, has the pressure transducer function been replaced by a Huma regulator? This is the key point of my question: Do these new rifles rely on the constant pressure supplied by a Huma Regulator, without a lookup table to adjust solenoid energy, since in principle the pressure is now constant.

If that's the case, what's the benefit of using a regulated bottle pressure in the Alpha/DeltaWolf versus a lookup table in the AirWolf/Redwolf to achieve a flat shot string? I'm guessing than answer is that with a manually adjusted Huma regulator the FAC rifle can be tuned to shoot over a huge energy range with 0.177 to 0.30 barrels?

Looking forwards to learning more.

 

[zx10wall]

You are correct. What the Delta and variations there of also do (original models) is utilize an onboard chronograph which can loop data back to the CPU and it will adjust to keep speeds consistent.

 

[zx10wall]

It can also store many many tunes so that they can easily be pulled up and reused. It manages this in any available caliber. You will however have to adjust the regulator.

 

[Tricky-Dicky]

I think you will find that the Alpha and Delta Wolf use a new version of the old MVT system IE because they use chrono feedback each shot is calculated by the last the regulator is just a method of keeping the pressure stable but the pressure available is always monitored whereas in the older MVT system the reg was absent.
I also believe it's a dual system as in the sub 12 version pellet weight selection is no available and the velocity uses MCT and not MVT.

 

[Arzrover]

The DW in Factory mode would be like a tethered RW. It still measures pressure and applies corrections based on velocity and pressure. When below the set reg pressure , it will make corrections. It uses a table for the STARTING POINT and then makes corrections... In Advanced mode, it's like a mechanical, regulated rifle that you can tune the hammer strike on...
Bob

 

[bchannell]

Not to but in, but i've owned an MCT rifle and have followed the development of these rifles. Of the online shot strings i've seen, i was not impressed with the results compared to a well regulated mechanical airgun.

 

[Tricky-Dicky]

Not to but in, but i've owned an MCT rifle and have followed the development of these rifles. Of the online shot strings i've seen, i was not impressed with the results compared to a well regulated mechanical airgun.

I am inclined to agree, I have tuned my other rifles to be far more consistent than my Alpha Wolf.

 

[Lewis]

If that's the case, what's the benefit of using a regulated bottle pressure in the Alpha/DeltaWolf versus a lookup table in the AirWolf/Redwolf to achieve a flat shot string?

The benefit can be increased accuracy or at least predictability.

I'm sure I will botch up this explanation, but here goes.

In a gun using a lookup table, the valve timing and/or voltage changes with the available bottle pressure.

To achieve a certain velocity, the gun makes changes along the way. For example:

To shoot a given pellet at 800 fps with 150 available bar the gun will open the valve x far for x long.

With 100 bar available the gun will open the valve y far for y long.

The speed will be the same but the harmonics and accuracy may be very different.

Look at an impact for example. There are many ways to achieve a fixed velocity but some are louder/quieter, more/less efficient, more/less accurate, larger/smaller extreme spread.

The Delta Wolf in manual mode allows you to set a consistent valve event at a given pressure. I have done the same thing with RedWolves by installing a bottle reg and experimenting with the valve voltage and timing.

Many who shoot RedWolves will tell you that, even though the speed of a pellet stays the same, the gun is most accurate at a particular bottle pressure over a long string.

 

[bchannell]

I'm just trying to learn here, so forgive me, but would a well regulated plenum, whether electrical or mechanical provide the eletronics with a stable volume at a stable pressure, so that valve dwell and timing would be fairly consistent, making harmonics fairly consistent?

Of course, at that point would electronics be an improvement over totally mechanical?

Not a bash as i love DS but trying to learn about them.

 

[Lewis]

The size of the plenum only ensures there is enough air for the shot. The pressure will still drop by some amount each shot.
Electronic or mechanical each have their pro's and con's.
One of the great things about the electronic guns is repeatability for a given setting. For example, I have a .177 Redwolf (it has a Heliboard with no bottle regulator) that I have programmed for 6 fpe for indoor 10 meter practice, 12 fpe FT pellet shooting, and 25 plus fpe for 100 yard slugs. In under a minute I can switch between any of these settings, shoot, and go back to the same exact setting again. With my Impact, I can do all the same stuff but each change requires re-tuning to be where it was before.

 

[Arzrover]

I'm just trying to learn here, so forgive me, but would a well regulated plenum, whether electrical or mechanical provide the eletronics with a stable volume at a stable pressure, so that valve dwell and timing would be fairly consistent, making harmonics fairly consistent?

Of course, at that point would electronics be an improvement over totally mechanical?

Not a bash as i love DS but trying to learn about them.

That is what the DW was designed around...
The improvement is based on the ease of adjustment and presets for different projectiles and velocities plus both RW and DW have true free flight hammers with only a mild hammer return spring to bring it back to ready.
Whether the DW fully accomplished the intent is probably debatable but it certainly has its merits.
I think there may be a harmonic sweet spot for any given projectile on the RW but it is my favorite for having full bottle pressure at the valve and very quick and easy power selection and tuning with the Heliboard. It seems to shoot better than almost every rifle I've tried, effortlessly. So I can shoot 8.4s at 800 fps in 177 or 56 gn Zan's @ 900 in 30 cal... or almost anything in between in a matter of 1 to 5 minutes depending on the barrel already having a shroud mounted or not... AND I have ALL the in between... For the anal, it can be tuned to have a very tight ES.
I'm well north of 70k shots on my RW, 50k on my Safari, and 50k on my DW, the RW and Safari were mostly above 50 ft lb. I resealed the RW a few times for insurance before big matches ... not difficult... but the only actual part I've replaced is the battery... because leaving it powered up with a Heliboard will KILL a LiPO...
I probably shoot the DW more in the last couple of years, testing and tinkering and like it's ergos a little more, but really like the RW powerplant more because it has no reg, is more efficient, and has such a huge range.
Just my $0.02...
Bob

 

[Regal_US]

Thanks to all the answerers to my question.Some good information in this thread. I'd not considered how barrel harmonics impact the switch between calibers and even within a caliber different pellet velocities.

I'm still a bit confused about how the AirWolf or RedWolf, with a pressure transducer for the bottle, but with no onboard chronograph, behaves differently from an Alpha/Delta Wolf with a Huma regulator. Does the Alpha/Delta Wolf measure the plenum pressure set by the Huma, which would be very different from the unregulated bottle pressure measured for the AirWolf MCT versions without a builtin chronograph?

Both seem valid approaches to controlling how these rifles try to achieve shot to shot consistency.

 

[Arzrover]

I'm not really sure how versions previous to RW were programmed but the DW measures pressure and it's part of the algorithm for velocity in Factory mode. So at a constant plenum pressure, the hammer settings are constant... when the pressure starts to fall, the settings will change. On my particular test/programming GUI, there is a Factory Test tab and you can see it happen. Later versions that I believe are intended for the public with the dongle do not have this tab...
Bob

 

[Emu]

Let's talk about the main problem with the computer system you are talking about.

After a period of inactivity, first two shots are out of zero and lower in power......
For hunting purposes that is BIG problem.

When you are waiting in a blind hours and suddenly a Javalina shows up, or when calling coyotes, you may not ask for a time out period to make two shoots in order that the rifle's computer and chrony makes the figures to be able to shoot as expected.

Tomorrow to my hunting trip I will take with me the Wolverine HP .30 Cal non regulated and the Sidewinder .25 Cal. Both have confirmed to hit exactly where I want after long periods of inactivity.

 

[Regal_US]

I'm not really sure how versions previous to RW were programmed but the DW measures pressure and it's part of the algorithm for velocity in Factory mode. So at a constant plenum pressure, the hammer settings are constant... when the pressure starts to fall, the settings will change. On my particular test/programming GUI, there is a Factory Test tab and you can see it happen. Later versions that I believe are intended for the public with the dongle do not have this tab...
Bob

I should have clarified. I'm asking about DayState's "Advanced Shot Setting" mode, in which as far as I understand, the built in chronograph is NOT used by the onboard computer for tuning on a shot by shot basis. Bottom line: in the advanced mode, in which the plenum pressure is controlled by the Huma regulator, is any additional lookup table used, as is the case for my unregulated AirWolf, or is the AlphaWolf, in advanced mode, entirely relying on the plenum pressure set by the Huma regulator. I understand that in Factory mode the rifle behaves differently.

 

[Arzrover]

Correct... the settings are fixed by you in Advanced mode and pressure is not a consideration. Factory mode uses the table only for a starting point...
Advanced mode is intended to be a fully manual tuning tool...
Bob