Daystate mag question

[oldsparky]

Help me understand the Daystate magazine complaint. I have Huntsman Regal 177 I only shoot it with the magazine and have shoot several sleeves of pellets. I don't have any wear on my probe. What causes the wear some are troubled with? When I bought my 177 Wolverine fro AOA I was told that really only happens on larger HP calibers. But anyway I ask to get mine with the new mag. I really dont care for the new design. I like the old mag that indexes when the bolt cycles. The new one has Constant rotating Spring pressure so I would think it would cause side force on the prob. I like the higher shot capacity of the new mag. Loading a empty new mag is simple, but a mag that still has a few pellets in it is different, the pellet that holds the magazine from rotating drops down into the next hole and you can’t rotate either direction until you try to dump that one out. Anyway the reason I am asking about the old wear problem is I am thinking about buying a old style.



Thanks, Jim

 

[Why]

Many Other gun manufacturers use spring wound magazines too so it's not only Daystate. I would worry more about the new Daystate magazine when it comes to accidentally double loading rather than pellet probe wear which should be a non issue especially with the electronic guns where you don't have any inkling of hammer spring tension resistance on that second double load to tell you're doing a double tap whereas with the mechanical versions you just take that magazine out when you cock it and know it's already loaded with a pellet in the barrel since you got no resistance on that second cock.

 

[Arzrover]

The 177 bolts are smaller and the indexing pin is operated at lower intensity as the pressure behind the pellet is less. In the bigger HP versions, the indexing bar can hit the bolt and leave a little mark. I've shot mine as a 22 and 25 at pretty high powers for a LOT of tins and haven't noticed any accuracy or indexing issues in mine other than the pin breaking once in a while.

Get the old one if it's the one you like.

Bob

 

[hawkeye69]

The old style magazine indexing lever strikes the pellet probe. The problem is worse on some guns than on others, but it isn't restricted to just HP models. The picture below is of my Renegade .22 pellet probe (non HP model). I also own a Pulsar HP and on that gun the damage is less extreme, but the probe still has a groove cut in it. On both guns it definitely affected accuracy and caused frequent breech seal failures and broken indexing pins. The new magazines do not strike the probe but you also lose the non-double load feature.

I like the non-double load feature plus I didn't want to spend another $200 for new magazines, so I altered the old magazines by grinding off some of the index lever. Now they work great and don't damage the probe anymore. The accuracy is now the same with the magazine as it is with the SST and no more premature breech seal failures.

The old magazine might work for you, maybe not. There's no way to know for sure unless you try one.

 

[Macros]

It only affects the guns with the indexing pin that is actuated by excess air during the shot cycle. 

Older daystates like the huntsman regal and Airwolf etc actuated the mag with a sliding wedge that was drawn back during actual cocking. When actuated like this the probe was withdrawn and the mag rotated to the next chamber. That's way daystate mags click and stop the why they as they had to halt their own rotation without the probe in the way. 

The problem comes from using mags initially designed for this type of action, but now the indexing pin actuates everything with the probe in place. The little hooks on the lever responsible for catching the drum, which previously could move freely into the path of the pellet chamber without issue now smack into the probe, causing wear and tear as well as accuracy issues for some (major for me).

Because the probe is now in place though, the initial catch is no longer needed as the probe halts the drum during the shot much like any other spring loaded mag. So you can happily grind it off which significantly improves accuracy and halts any damage to the probe.

One potential (?) issue is that the drum still starts it's rotation in the middle of the the shot cycle, instead of placing consistent pressure on the probe like other spring loaded mags, including the new daystate and CARM ones. I definitely still get better accuracy with the CARM than my fixed daystate mag, so maybe there is something to that

Some also suspect suboptimal alignment and pellet damage as a reason for bad accuracy in some daystate mags, but looking at Tominco's borecam video of a daystate pellet loading the probe is shown to align everything perfectly as it moves forward, so I'm not overly convinced by that. I tested each chamber of my mag (load, barrel off, push through, reinsert barrel and mag, repeat) while initially trying to figure out the problem and absolutely no pellet damage was ever found. 

 

[elh0102]

I have a Red Wolf, and there is a minor groove in the probe from the indexing lever. I have seen no effect on accuracy. And the location of this minor dent does not contact the breech seal, and frankly, I see no reason it should affect accuracy. Some owners seem convinced it does, so maybe I'm wrong. 

 

[hawkeye69]

I have a Red Wolf, and there is a minor groove in the probe from the indexing lever. I have seen no effect on accuracy. And the location of this minor dent does not contact the breech seal, and frankly, I see no reason it should affect accuracy. Some owners seem convinced it does, so maybe I'm wrong.

I think that it all depends on the gun. The accuracy on my Renegade was bad before I altered the magazine. The first 5 shots were pretty good and then shots 6 through 10 would get progressively worse. I assume it was from the probe being struck repeatedly on one side deformed the breech seal causing it to leak slightly. Obviously that would affect accuracy.. Just my theory, but on my Renegade I had to replace 8 seals leaking air in the first 3 months I owned it. Since I altered the magazine over a year ago I've had zero breech seal leaks. No more broken index pins since then too, and accuracy is great. I don't think that's just a coincidence.

The problem was not as bad with my Pulsar and the accuracy was pretty good but the magazine did cut a groove in the probe so I altered that magazine as well..

 

[Maineiac]

For those of you that altered your mags, do you have pictures of how you did it?

 

[Macros]

I have a Red Wolf, and there is a minor groove in the probe from the indexing lever. I have seen no effect on accuracy. And the location of this minor dent does not contact the breech seal, and frankly, I see no reason it should affect accuracy. Some owners seem convinced it does, so maybe I'm wrong.

With mine (I have the 35fpe 0.22 Red wolf standard - I think you do too?) the average group with the mag was over 2inches at 45yards, while shooting small cloverleafed holes with the sst. I tried everything to no avail. It was only once that little hook had gone that the mag became useable and nearly as good as the sst. With the CARM mags there is no difference in accuracy to the SST.

It's completely transformed what was once a good gun with a serious flaw into an almost perfect gun for me.

I think what hawkeye66 suspects is with the sudden pushing/jarring of the probe to the side by the impact from the lever during the shot, it may not be seated perfectly centrally in the breech oring, causing an uneven seal, strain and possibly early failure. 

 

[elh0102]

I have a Red Wolf, and there is a minor groove in the probe from the indexing lever. I have seen no effect on accuracy. And the location of this minor dent does not contact the breech seal, and frankly, I see no reason it should affect accuracy. Some owners seem convinced it does, so maybe I'm wrong.

With mine (I have the 35fpe 0.22 Red wolf standard - I think you do too?) the average group with the mag was over 2inches at 45yards, while shooting small cloverleafed holes with the sst. I tried everything to no avail. It was only once that little hook had gone that the mag became useable and nearly as good as the sst. With the CARM mags there is no difference in accuracy to the SST.

It's completely transformed what was once a good gun with a serious flaw into an almost perfect gun for me.

I think what hawkeye66 suspects is with the sudden pushing/jarring of the probe to the side by the impact from the lever during the shot, it may not be seated perfectly centrally in the breech oring, causing an uneven seal, strain and possibly early failure. 

I'm going to do some more testing with mine, I've been shooting other rifles more recently. My general recollection, my rifle shoots better with the SST than with magazine, any magazine. I don't remember seeing a difference between old and new style Daystate, or CARM. And the difference I remember is not a general increase in group size, but occasional flyers. 

 

[Macros]

Yeah the occasional flyer is now the main difference between the fixed daystate mag and the CARM/SST for me. I tend not to get them with the latter. Let us know how your testing goes - maybe I'm just lucky regarding the CARM mags.

 

[oldsparky]

I need to get a CARM mag to try out. I think one or their single shot gizmos may be nice also. I am glad I asked this question. My job got pushed back this morning so I shoot a few groups. I had never used the SS tray in the Wolverine. I have in my Regal here are a few quick 10 shot groups @ 40 yards. The target rotated when loaded so the top are the magazine and the bottom are the SS tray.

 

[hawkeye69]

For those of you that altered your mags, do you have pictures of how you did it?

I don't have any pictures but it's easy to do. Look into the probe opening on the magazine and push up the index lever. You'll see the hook on the lever that will strike the probe. Disassemble the magazine and with a Dremel remove material from the hook so when you push it up it doesn't extend into the probe area. Easy to do, just be careful not to damage the magazine with the Dremel. Here's a video that will help you on assembly:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd0WjBukx6g&t=97s

 

[5thumbs]

thank you for this information (all on this thread). I opened up the magazine and see the hook. I can file down the point, but there must be a point where I file it down and it wont catch the magazine wheel to index properly. So there must be a fine line between not hitting the probe and not being able to index. Any feedback?

 

[hawkeye69]

thank you for this information (all on this thread). I opened up the magazine and see the hook. I can file down the point, but there must be a point where I file it down and it wont catch the magazine wheel to index properly. So there must be a fine line between not hitting the probe and not being able to index. Any feedback?

Even if you remove the hook completely it will still function properly in the gun. But when the magazine is out of the gun and you press the lever it will not stop at each cylinder, instead it will go all the way the last one unless you stop it manually, which is easy to do. I removed it completely on my Renegade and it's not a problem.

 

[elh0102]

Did some shooting today with the Red Wolf, using the SST, old and new style Daystate mags, and the CARM mag. It was not exhaustive by any means, but maybe suggestive. Bottom line, everything shot well. There was a small POI variation between mags and the SST, very little difference in precision. I shot mostly at 25 yards, then ended with two 50 yard groups, one with the tray and one with the new style mag, and both were well under a half inch. Also, regarding the need for a new indexing pin with the new style mag, I can only say there must have been a change made at some point. I compared the bottom recess on the new mag with the bottom of the single shot tray. The magazine has more clearance than the tray, so I see no way it can contact the new magazine, and I see no sign of it ever touching mine. These are the two 50 yard groups. Full disclosure, they are 4 shots, not 5. My bottle was getting low on air and I did not have my tank. 

 

[hawkeye69]

Did some shooting today with the Red Wolf, using the SST, old and new style Daystate mags, and the CARM mag. It was not exhaustive by any means, but maybe suggestive. Bottom line, everything shot well. There was a small POI variation between mags and the SST, very little difference in precision. I shot mostly at 25 yards, then ended with two 50 yard groups, one with the tray and one with the new style mag, and both were well under a half inch. Also, regarding the need for a new indexing pin with the new style mag, I can only say there must have been a change made at some point. I compared the bottom recess on the new mag with the bottom of the single shot tray. The magazine has more clearance than the tray, so I see no way it can contact the new magazine, and I see no sign of it ever touching mine. These are the two 50 yard groups. Full disclosure, they are 4 shots, not 5. My bottle was getting low on air and I did not have my tank.

The new magazines are self-indexing. No indexing pin necessary.

 

[elh0102]

The new magazines are self-indexing. No indexing pin necessary.

Yes, but if you want to use the old style too, you need it. My point, there seems to be no need to replace the index pin with a new style. There is more than enough clearance in the bottom of my new mag to avoid the pin contacting the magazine. That's what I meant by there appearing to be a change made. There has been discussion about the pin slamming into the bottom of the new mag and breaking it. The recess in my new magazine appears to provide sufficient clearance for the pin when it pops up, more clearance than in the bottom of the single shot tray. 

 

[hawkeye69]

The new magazines are self-indexing. No indexing pin necessary.

Yes, but if you want to use the old style too, you need it. My point, there seems to be no need to replace the index pin with a new style. There is more than enough clearance in the bottom of my new mag to avoid the pin contacting the magazine. That's what I meant by there appearing to be a change made. There has been discussion about the pin slamming into the bottom of the new mag and breaking it. The recess in my new magazine appears to provide sufficient clearance for the pin when it pops up, more clearance than in the bottom of the single shot tray.

As far as I know, AOA has been removing the index pins for people choosing to use the new magazines.

 

[elh0102]

The new magazines are self-indexing. No indexing pin necessary.

Yes, but if you want to use the old style too, you need it. My point, there seems to be no need to replace the index pin with a new style. There is more than enough clearance in the bottom of my new mag to avoid the pin contacting the magazine. That's what I meant by there appearing to be a change made. There has been discussion about the pin slamming into the bottom of the new mag and breaking it. The recess in my new magazine appears to provide sufficient clearance for the pin when it pops up, more clearance than in the bottom of the single shot tray.

As far as I know, AOA has been removing the index pins for people choosing to use the new magazines.

Rich didn't mention it when I ordered my mags, but he said yesterday that I needed one, and I just received it. But I believe Daystate has made the recess in the bottom of the mag deeper, mine measures .115", which is deeper than the SST recess, and the clearance appears sufficient. I'm going to make further inquiry.