Other Death of the springer

[delooper]

What you're seeing is a meta-feature of our modern market.

A high-quality springer could easily last 100+ years with minimal amounts of service or replacement parts. For companies to avoid being driven into the dirt they often need to make as much revenue as possible. So you make rifles that need to be serviced, need spare parts, allow users to purchase add-ons and reconfigure the rifle, etc.

It's the same thing that has happened to kitchen appliances. Can you find one that'll last 10 years without being serviced, anymore? In the 40's and 50's they were made to last. But the entire appliance market has realized that isn't in their interests.

In the most extreme you see it in the automobile market. When you "buy" a modern electric vehicle now you are effectively just buying an "exclusive long-term rental agreement". The car company can remotely change your car's operating system, affecting everything from performance to mileage, without your consent.

The market gives incentives for companies to migrate to a "rent seeking" model. Pay companies a constant stream of money on a regular contract, like Disney+.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I consistently get 14-16k on the factory springs in my D34. The Vortek has about 12k and its still shooting 640 or so.

The Cometa shoots at 740. I replaced the seal after 12k because it was down to 640.

By comparison about 4k shots before the HW spring fail. I've never got one to shoot 650fps for more than a couple hundred shots even with new seals/springs. The 97k seems to be holding up better but all the 95 I've owned shot about 550 fps after a thousand shots and less pretty quickly.

The difference in price compared to the difference in service is huge. You can't compare a Hatsan to an HW in quality or accuracy. But you can compare the Cometa 400. It's no HW but it shoots like one. There is no tradeoff in accuracy and the durability (in my limited experience) is MUCH better. It's a D34 in fit and finish. And so far it has performed flawlessly. As has the D34.

I rebuilt the HW95 with a vortek kit and slicked up the piston. It shoots great now but still 640 fps. I can't take it out in the desert or I'll ruin the walnut. But it's fun to punch paper with when my back gets sore. I can't stand and deliver with it like the D34 or the Cometa. But it is a shiny safe queen. I love gazing upon it when I have important tasks I'm ignoring.

No rifle ever built lasts for 100 years if you shoot them regularly. Not 50. Not 10. Trigger springs break, parts snap, screws strip and the internals wear out after a few thousand shots. I rotate 5 rifles and I'm lucky to have one last 6 months before rebuilding or trigger work.

I got into airguns after the third rebarreling on my Remington 700VS and 2 on the mod 70 Win. I figured I could shoot an airgun 20k and rebuild it myself. That plan has been realistic with a D34 or a Cometa. But it just won't work with the others I've owned. I'll buy 4-5 kits to get that many shots out of my HW's. I could rebarrel the .243 for that and shoot 500 yards. The only difference I see is the price of ammo. The longevity is about the same.

Again that is just my very limited experience. Some of you guys can probably shoot a springer hard every day for 100 years and never have a problem.

...yeah right.

 

[.20calguy]

Sure he would get a better production gun but from the sounds of it he shoots 4000 shots a month ..NO spring can take that.

Sounds like my kind of challenge!

 

[Sawney Bean]

I own both and definitely agree that within their limits, if you keep your expectations real, spring guns lend themselves to a fun day of extended shooting far better than PCP's. I never take a PCP on a camping trip.

I've gone on a few camping trips where the whole point was to get out into the woods and shoot a ton of airguns.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

Sounds like my kind of challenge!

It's man against spring in this epic battle!

I've gone on a few camping trips where the whole point was to get out into the woods and shoot a ton of airguns.

My life has been a camping trip where the whole point was to wear out a gun.

I've learned a lot. Mainly don't get attached to a gun. There are many like it. This one is mine (Until it quits running and then get another one like it and shoot that sucker to death too).

 

[.20calguy]

A hatsan 95 costs $99-120 refurb. $129 new at airgun depot.

I can buy 4 for $600. So you do the math.

Mine was free from the previous owner who hated it. I figured out how to air it up and got some use out of it until it was done. Now its value is as a wall hanger, and a pretty good looking one.

 

[.20calguy]

If it wasn't for part #109 a hatsan would go 10k shots. Sadly those trigger parts are the weakest link. I'd rebuild them if I could replace the silly part.

I'm Curious. In an earlier coment you mentioned that an HW95 will fit the Hatsan 65 stock, and that they were the same power plant?
If so, why not just put a Rekord Trigger on the H65?

 

[.20calguy]

It's man against spring in this epic battle!



My life has been a camping trip where the whole point was to wear out a gun.

I've learned a lot. Mainly don't get attached to a gun. There are many like it. This one is mine (Until it quits running and then get another one like it and shoot that sucker to death too).

Kind of like, drive it until the wheels fall off.

 

[A.G.R]

I don't know Manny. But if he's never shot a fine airgun he needs to!

. Spell check some times will get you a laugh.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I'm Curious. In an earlier coment you mentioned that an HW95 will fit the Hatsan 65 stock, and that they were the same power plant?
If so, why not just put a Rekord Trigger on the H65?

The Hatsan 95 goes right in the Hatsan 65 stock.

The HW is a different beast.

The Rekord trigger is a much better trigger. I wish they interchanged with the Quattro. They don't.

A guy with a CNC set up to make part #109 could get some business. It's the Achilles heel on the Quattro. Some of the old Quattros might not be like that. But every one I've had break and render an otherwise good gun worthless. The ol' Hatsans are a worthy gun. The triggers just don't last.

 

[.20calguy]

I consistently get 14-16k on the factory springs in my D34. The Vortek has about 12k and its still shooting 640 or so.

The Cometa shoots at 740. I replaced the seal after 12k because it was down to 640.

By comparison about 4k shots before the HW spring fail. I've never got one to shoot 650fps for more than a couple hundred shots even with new seals/springs. The 97k seems to be holding up better but all the 95 I've owned shot about 550 fps after a thousand shots and less pretty quickly.

The difference in price compared to the difference in service is huge. You can't compare a Hatsan to an HW in quality or accuracy. But you can compare the Cometa 400. It's no HW but it shoots like one. There is no tradeoff in accuracy and the durability (in my limited experience) is MUCH better. It's a D34 in fit and finish. And so far it has performed flawlessly. As has the D34.

I rebuilt the HW95 with a vortek kit and slicked up the piston. It shoots great now but still 640 fps. I can't take it out in the desert or I'll ruin the walnut.

Does taking the Walnut Hatsan out in the desert ruin them? Or you do mean you're just protective of the 95?
It sounds like you have a lot of experience with these, so I assume your not saying that springers are dead by any stretch.

What caliber is your 95, shooting 640 fps?
Mine is a .20 cal and haven't chrono'd it yet.
It developed grinding while cocking, so is on its way back for warranty work unfortunately.

 

[.20calguy]

The Hatsan 95 goes right in the Hatsan 65 stock.

The HW is a different beast.

The Rekord trigger is a much better trigger. I wish they interchanged with the Quattro. They don't.

A guy with a CNC set up to make part #109 could get some business. It's the Achilles heel on the Quattro. Some of the old Quattros might not be like that. But every one I've had break and render an otherwise good gun worthless. The ol' Hatsans are a worthy gun. The triggers just don't last.

That straightens me out!

 

[.20calguy]

The Hatsan 95 goes right in the Hatsan 65 stock.

The HW is a different beast.

The Rekord trigger is a much better trigger. I wish they interchanged with the Quattro. They don't.

A guy with a CNC set up to make part #109 could get some business. It's the Achilles heel on the Quattro. Some of the old Quattros might not be like that. But every one I've had break and render an otherwise good gun worthless. The ol' Hatsans are a worthy gun. The triggers just don't last.

I have a good trigger if you need it

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I have a good trigger if you need it

A Quattro? Really?

Awesome!

I'll take it! PM me and we'll figure it out!

 

[Bedrock Bob]

Does taking the Walnut Hatsan out in the desert ruin them? Or you do mean you're just protective of the 95?
It sounds like you have a lot of experience with these, so I assume your not saying that springers are dead by any stretch.

What caliber is your 95, shooting 640 fps?
Mine is a .20 cal and haven't chrono'd it yet.
It developed grinding while cocking, so is on its way back for warranty work unfortunately.

It's a .22. All my springers are .22.

The Hatsan stocks are pretty and good wood but they aren't well finished. I sand them down and oil them and shoot them anyway. You can't sand out the burned in chatter marks unless you want to spend hours. I'm careful with them but they still get a lot of scratches and dings. I don't worry about plastic. Who cares?

I hear of guys getting 700+ with a Vortek kit (14.66 HN). I sure don't. Not even close. Even with a new seal and spring I get 650 max. That has never lasted and velocity drops to about 600 for the life of the spring. The Vortek hasn't been shot enough to see if it will hold the speed so it may last longer. Still it isn't anywhere near the 700+ people claim to be getting.

The Hatsan shoots 760+. The Cometa 740+. Both the HW95 and HW97 have trouble slinging a 14.66 at 640 on a fresh rebuild. A JSB 15 won't get over 600 fps if you dipped them in gasoline.

The HW95 drives tacks at 550 fps. But you can't shoot it 50 yards with iron sights. The rear sight blade is way down below the front sight tunnel and the POI is behind the dot. No sight picture at all. It will barely shoot 50 yards without a sight adjustment at 650 fps. If I zero it with the lollipop at the bottom of the notch at 25 I can get 50 yards out of it but thats a poor way to hold.

All my other air rifles have no problem going 70 yards with open sights without that sodding Korntunnel up front. Even the D34 has a tunnel. But you have enough post there to reach out to 70+. The D34 shoots the same speed as the HW95. Past 45 yards the HW sights are maxed out and your cranking on the elevation to get a sight picture.

Ol' Hateful McNasty claims to zero at 25 and hold 6 o'clock out to 50 with his HW95. I've had 4 of them and none will shoot 50 yards holding the post all the way up. Go figure.

I keep buying them thinking I'll get a "good one" sooner or later. So far that hasn't happened. I don't worry about it much though. I'm too busy knocking shotgun shells around at 50 yards with the Cometa.

 

[EMrider]

I usually replace the OEM spring/seal with an ARH spring and Vortek seal within the first thousand shots. After that my springs, screws and internals are thankfully lasting a lot more than a few thousand shots. My R7 and hw50s are well past 10k with no change in power.
R

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I usually replace the OEM spring/seal with an ARH spring and Vortek seal within the first thousand shots. After that my springs, screws and internals are thankfully lasting a lot more than a few thousand shots. My R7 and hw50s are well past 10k with no change in power.
R

That's what I expect from mine now that I installed the kit. We'll see.

I expected it from a new gun and I was mistaken. I didn't get 10k shots from a new gun and 2 warranty rebuilds. Most of those shots were below 600 fps.

I see the HW50 advertises 575 fps in 22. That's just about what my HW95 averaged in the prime of its very short life with the factory giblets. The first three were below that after 1k shots.

I think the manufacturer expects you to modify the gun to make it reliable. Most guys who shoot HW's do modify them to get them to shoot. For the price I think that is an unreasonable expectation.

That's why I'm not spending on high dollar guns anymore. I can get what I expect for less than half the cost in a gun that will shoot 50 yards without sight adjustment, last longer and shoot faster with very little difference in accuracy.

 

[A.G.R]

It's a .22. All my springers are .22.

The Hatsan stocks are pretty and good wood but they aren't well finished. I sand them down and oil them and shoot them anyway. You can't sand out the burned in chatter marks unless you want to spend hours. I'm careful with them but they still get a lot of scratches and dings. I don't worry about plastic. Who cares?

I hear of guys getting 700+ with a Vortek kit (14.66 HN). I sure don't. Not even close. Even with a new seal and spring I get 650 max. That has never lasted and velocity drops to about 600 for the life of the spring. The Vortek hasn't been shot enough to see if it will hold the speed so it may last longer. Still it isn't anywhere near the 700+ people claim to be getting.

The Hatsan shoots 760+. The Cometa 740+. Both the HW95 and HW97 have trouble slinging a 14.66 at 640 on a fresh rebuild. A JSB 15 won't get over 600 fps if you dipped them in gasoline.

The HW95 drives tacks at 550 fps. But you can't shoot it 50 yards with iron sights. The rear sight blade is way down below the front sight tunnel and the POI is behind the dot. No sight picture at all. It will barely shoot 50 yards without a sight adjustment at 650 fps. If I zero it with the lollipop at the bottom of the notch at 25 I can get 50 yards out of it but thats a poor way to hold.

All my other air rifles have no problem going 70 yards with open sights without that sodding Korntunnel up front. Even the D34 has a tunnel. But you have enough post there to reach out to 70+. The D34 shoots the same speed as the HW95. Past 45 yards the HW sights are maxed out and your cranking on the elevation to get a sight picture.

Ol' Hateful McNasty claims to zero at 25 and hold 6 o'clock out to 50 with his HW95. I've had 4 of them and none will shoot 50 yards holding the post all the way up. Go figure.

I keep buying them thinking I'll get a "good one" sooner or later. So far that hasn't happened. I don't worry about it much though. I'm too busy knocking shotgun shells around at 50 yards with the Cometa.

hmmmm , your not in high elevation… 700 plus isnt that hard to get usually. Hell I had a long rifle 95 I detuned and swapped barrels as it was 750 with FTT. SMALLER SPRING AND MY OWN SET UP. NOT HOT RODDED …

550 is LOW FOR a HW. With 14.66.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

hmmmm , your not in high elevation… 700 plus isnt that hard to get usually. Hell I had a long rifle 95 I detuned and swapped barrels as it was 750 with FTT. SMALLER SPRING AND MY OWN SET UP. NOT HOT RODDED …

550 is LOW FOR a HW. With 14.66.

My point exactly.

I'm in the Rio Grande valley at 4000 fas. The mountain peaks 12 miles away are 9000 fas. It's not high elevation compared to Lima, Peru. But its a lot higher than most places in the US. All my shooting so far has been at 4000 fas. Just north of El Paso Texas on your Rand McNally road atlas.

It still does not account for a 100 fps drop over a thousand shots at the same altitude.

The D34, a truckload of hatsans and 2 Cometas seem to shoot just fine for big happy long time. It's only the HW rifles (4 HW95 and one HW97k) that I could fart a pellet faster. Brand new out of the box they shot fine but they all gassed out fast.

My oldest Hatsan finally broke the third warranty repair trigger. It has probably 20k shots in its 18 month lifespan. It shoots 765 fps and about an 1.5" CTC at 50 yards. It cost me a whopping $129. I'll put a used trigger in it and it will probably outlast a new factory HW.

Even after the Vortek kit the HW95 is about 650. The second rebuild (AOA) on the 97k it was the same. That's plenty fast. I honestly don't care how fast they shoot if their accurate. And they are. They just break springs and slow down after a few shots and then slowly decline.

I'm honestly tired of sending them back and tearing them apart to replace the splintered springs. Same with buying a new gun and having to send every one back time after time. And I'm not about to drop $575 on another new gun I have to tear apart and stuff another $125 into to get it to shoot. I'd rather miss every third shot than bend over and get that reach around again.

I'll rebuild the 97k simply because I've got a pile invested in it already. If I can't get it to stabilize 650+ for a couple thousand shots you'll see both my HW's in the for sale thread.

I don't mind working on a rifle to fix it. But I'm not about to keep pumping cash in a money pit. Especially one I can't shoot 50 yards without cranking the rear sight higher.

I can get a new Tikka T3 in 30-06 that will shoot 3" @ 500 yards for about what i have invested in the HW97k. I can shoot it for 12-15k shots before it's over 1 moa. Then another 10k before it needs rebarreling. All I need is an 8 lb. can of XMR4350 and I'm set for a couple years.

 

[.20calguy]

It's a .22. All my springers are .22.

The Hatsan stocks are pretty and good wood but they aren't well finished. I sand them down and oil them and shoot them anyway. You can't sand out the burned in chatter marks unless you want to spend hours. I'm careful with them but they still get a lot of scratches and dings. I don't worry about plastic. Who cares?

I hear of guys getting 700+ with a Vortek kit (14.66 HN). I sure don't. Not even close. Even with a new seal and spring I get 650 max. That has never lasted and velocity drops to about 600 for the life of the spring. The Vortek hasn't been shot enough to see if it will hold the speed so it may last longer. Still it isn't anywhere near the 700+ people claim to be getting.

The Hatsan shoots 760+. The Cometa 740+. Both the HW95 and HW97 have trouble slinging a 14.66 at 640 on a fresh rebuild. A JSB 15 won't get over 600 fps if you dipped them in gasoline.

The HW95 drives tacks at 550 fps. But you can't shoot it 50 yards with iron sights. The rear sight blade is way down below the front sight tunnel and the POI is behind the dot. No sight picture at all. It will barely shoot 50 yards without a sight adjustment at 650 fps. If I zero it with the lollipop at the bottom of the notch at 25 I can get 50 yards out of it but thats a poor way to hold.

All my other air rifles have no problem going 70 yards with open sights without that sodding Korntunnel up front. Even the D34 has a tunnel. But you have enough post there to reach out to 70+. The D34 shoots the same speed as the HW95. Past 45 yards the HW sights are maxed out and your cranking on the elevation to get a sight picture.

Ol' Hateful McNasty claims to zero at 25 and hold 6 o'clock out to 50 with his HW95. I've had 4 of them and none will shoot 50 yards holding the post all the way up. Go figure.

I keep buying them thinking I'll get a "good one" sooner or later. So far that hasn't happened. I don't worry about it much though. I'm too busy knocking shotgun shells around at 50 yards with the Cometa.

I have a 35 and 75 yard backstop and I wind up shooting the 75 yard stop regardless of the rifle. I do shoot the HW30 at 30 but it's not much of a challenge. The 30 yard stop is best for the sheridans and pistols.
I shoot a 95n, the 97k, and 30s all .20 cals, down at the 75y range. The 30s scope is set for 30y and requires about 28" of holdover to hit. The 97 and 95 are grouping around 2moa down there in good wind.
I just ordered a 35E in .22 and I'm wondering how that will do at 75. It may be similar to the 30s in .20, cal? One difference is that the 30's scope can't adjust and the 35E will have adjustable rings. Anyway I'm looking forward to it.