Other Death of the springer

joe9090

I'm sorry to hear that you're down on the air gun industry, but if there's one thing I've learned in my long life it's that just about everything changes over time, some not for the good, but most things change for the better, but it usually at the loss of some little thing, take my first car for example, it was a 1951 ford Dulux two door sedan, it started out life as a police cruiser, it had a double chassis under it and was powered by a flat head ford factory racing engine, I loved that car it held the road like it was glued to it and nothing around could beat it in a race, they don't make them like that anymore.
But todays V-6 engines are faster, and todays cars are generally good for 100K miles before needing a tune up, and they get 25+ miles to a gallon of gas unlike the 10 miles to the gallon that my '51 Ford was giving me, that old Ford ran for 97,000 miles before it gave up the ghost, my 28 yr. old Volvo it just breaking in at 180,000 miles.
Now I have to make a confession, I've only been at this Air gun game for going on seven years so I'm still a green horn and not about to argue the point with you, but I can say this with my minor experience, and that's that the air gun industry (in my opinion) has come a long way in design and performance in todays air guns, and doing so while keeping the prices attractive and affordable.
I can remember way back in the olden days, my first air rifle was a Daisy mod. 25 pump BB rifle, I was about seven years old and had the devil of a time cocking that gun, then I got a Marksman .177 break barrel pellet rifle, it wasn't very accurate and not powerful enough to punch through both sides of a tin can, my next air rifle was a Sheridan Blue Streak in .20 cal., that was a real air rifle, I still have it and it's still shooting great.
Over the last six plus years I've purchased about a dozen air rifles mostly Springers and gas piston rifles, some are budget friendly at about $100.00 and a few are in the $400.00~$600.00 price range, the rest somewhere in the middle and I can honestly say that they are all great shooters, yes, I am fussy about what I buy, and yes I've had to do some trigger jobs and other slight mods to them, but they all had great bones to start out with, although my newest air rifle cost mt $99.00, nice wood stock (not fancy but nice), great bluing, a really sweet trigger, and shoots 1" groups at 50 yds., the factory bundle scop is bright, clear, tracks great, and keeps it's zero, it needed nothing out of the box, it's a .177 cal. Diana Break barrel mod. two fifty, and yes, it's made in China.
So, as much as then air gun industry has disappointed you, it's made me a very happy shooter.
And while we're at it lets not forget the air gun ammo industry and the advances that they have given us in the last decade.
 
First off, I love my spring piston guns (coil and gas rams). I have (more than) a few of them and usually reach for them first, before pumpers or pcp's. They range from budget to fairly higher end. Saying this so the following isn't taken as an attack on nicer springers...

Springers aren't dead yet, but in my opinion the "nicer" ones are getting too expensive. You'd figure if spending over $500 just on a pellet gun, you'd be getting something fancy.

Could be worse, like spending $2K+ on relatively flimsy plumbing with a barrel and scope attached 🤔😉😜😁

This was shortened... a lot.
 
Thinking back I bought my used scuba tank for little and the dive shop would fill it for $5. In those days my guns were sub 20 fpe so a tank would last almost all summer if I wasn't shooting a bunch.

I never had a hand pump, heck I'd rather use a springer instead than suffer through that much effort.

It wasn't until I got more powerful pcp's that I seriously began considering getting a compressor.

With springers screws seem to continuously vibrate loose, or scope mounts move forward, or scopes slide in rings, or scopes break, or the main spring breaks, and they are sensitive in how they are held.

PCP's aren't perfect either but I prefer the downsides of these vs downsides of the springers.

From a purely plinking perspective just imagine how many shots per fill one could get with a 700cc bottle in a really low powered pcp, like over 1000?! I would have loved one like that as a kid.
 
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Thinking back I bought my used scuba tank for little and the dive shop would fill it for $5. In those days my guns were sub 20 fpe so a tank would last almost all summer if I wasn't shooting a bunch.

I never had a hand pump, heck I'd rather use a springer instead than suffer through that much effort.

It wasn't until I got more powerful pcp's that I seriously began considering getting a compressor.

With springers screws seem to continuously vibrate loose, or scope mounts move forward, or scopes slide in rings, or scopes break, or the main spring breaks, and they are sensitive in how they are held.

PCP's aren't perfect either but I prefer the downsides of these vs downsides of the springers.

From a purely plinking perspective just imagine how many shots per fill one could get with a 700cc bottle in a really low powered pcp, like over 1000?! I would have loved one like that as a kid.
I’ve got an avenger bullpup in .177 that I picked up off Craigslist for $150. I decided to tune it to 12 fpe and at that power level you get hundreds of very quiet shots per fill.

I think that one of the big improvements that we don’t even notice these days is how much more common and how reasonably priced high quality mounts are. I remember being unable to keep my mounts from moving back in the 80’s and the awful rimfire mounts that were available in most stores. Nostalgia usually involves only remembering the good things.
 
Thinking back I bought my used scuba tank for little and the dive shop would fill it for $5. In those days my guns were sub 20 fpe so a tank would last almost all summer if I wasn't shooting a bunch.

I never had a hand pump, heck I'd rather use a springer instead than suffer through that much effort.

It wasn't until I got more powerful pcp's that I seriously began considering getting a compressor.

With springers screws seem to continuously vibrate loose, or scope mounts move forward, or scopes slide in rings, or scopes break, or the main spring breaks, and they are sensitive in how they are held.

PCP's aren't perfect either but I prefer the downsides of these vs downsides of the springers.

From a purely plinking perspective just imagine how many shots per fill one could get with a 700cc bottle in a really low powered pcp, like over 1000?! I would have loved one like that as a kid.
700cc bottle looks Yuge! But can you imagine the shot count?

IMG_2787.jpeg
 
Blasphemy!

The "Death of the Springer" is talking about PCPs in a threat titled "Death of the Springer".

If you guys can't stay off the bottle long enough to keep it on topic may you all get pellet worms and slug rot.

It's disgusting is what it is. Shame on you!
To be fair pcp's have some springs in them ;):p:eek:
 
To be fair pcp's have some springs in them ;):p:eek:

Little scrawny weak azz springs that just don't amount to a hill of beans. Some PCP springs dream of being a mighty mainspring. They just don't have the slugs it takes to pull it off.

Some want to "transition" to mainsprings and insist we refer to them as such. They "feel" like springers inside but don't have the pellets for it. Some HW springs want to be tiny little PCP springs and modify themselves to be shorter.

Still, springers are naturally endowed with big old stiff coils and PCPs are born with tiny little trigger springs and big round bottles up front. Both should learn to be happy with the springs they were born with and stop the bickering.
 
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I had a thought. Given that every big box store with a sporting goods department sells springers/gas piston rifles, I would bet that the vast majority of air guns sold in 2024 are still springers and not pcps. I would bet you’d see something like 90% of air rifles sold with only 10% pcp. Just given the plug and play nature of a springer they will always have a healthy place in the airgun world.

I was thinking along similar lines with the production numbers for the Weihrauch Jubilee 1899 125th Anniversary series. If PCPs outsell springers across the board, why did Weihrauch make five times more HW50s and HW97KTs (900 and 600 total, respectively) than the HW100T (300 total)?
 
I was thinking along similar lines with the production numbers for the Weihrauch Jubilee 1899 125th Anniversary series. If PCPs outsell springers across the board, why did Weihrauch make five times more HW50s and HW97KTs (900 and 600 total, respectively) than the HW100T (300 total)?
That’s just simple economics. The HW100 is a $1400 gun while the HW97 is a $800 gun and the HW50 is a $450 gun.

Also, the HW97 is one of the two most successful field target rifles ever.

What would probably give a better idea of which one sells the most would be if a retailer like Pyramyd would provide the data, but even then it would be overlooking all the guns sold by the big box retailers.
 
The Whiscombe rifles were built to the original detailed Giss patent drawings - two pistons moving toward each other and meeting in the center of the receiver, feeding air to a barrel mounted above. AFAIK they are the only production airguns done that way.

Diana's recoilless double-piston target guns (models 6 and 10 pistols; 60, 65, 66, and 75 rifles) use pistons moving away from each other, with power taken off only the front one. This arrangement was described in the Giss patent as well, and fit well within typical spring-piston architecture with the barrel in front of the powerplant.
 
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They have nothing in common other than the conceptual link to different aspects of Kurt Giss's 1956 patent.

The M&G guns were manufactured in Germany for about 40 years beginning in 1960, and widely sold world-wide under several different brand names (Diana, Original, RWS, Geco, Gecado, HyScore, Beeman, etc.).

Calling the Whiscombes "production guns" is almost a misnoner. They were limited-run items mostly hand-made by John Whiscombe in the UK, in the 90's and 00's maybe? Rare, valuable items and fantastic performers.
 
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Both the HW95 and HW97 have trouble slinging a 14.66 at 640 on a fresh rebuild. A JSB 15 won't get over 600 fps if you dipped them in gasoline.
Those are pretty low numbers, and the gasoline quip is just folly, TBH. My HW95L .22 cal in factory trim would shoot Exact 15.89's at 650 fps, and FTT 14.66's at 705 fps.

My Cometa 400 .22 cal in factory trim would shoot Exact 15.89's at 680 fps and FTT 14.66's at 740 fps.

All numbers rounded down averages.
 
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