Derrick Wall Shoots a Perfect EFT Score!

[Franklink]

Competitors, choose your weapon ~ 100 FPE limit and up to .30. Let me remind all that Michael Wendt also cleaned an XFT course (40 for 40 with the use of a mulligan) using a .22 Red Wolf HP.

The Cricket is my most accurate gun. If I had a .25 or .22 high power that was more accurate, it’s what I’d be shooting. I did just install a .22 barrel on my Delta Wolf today. We shall see

Oh, and I do intend to bring my .22 Vulcan 3 some day to AZ and hope to show what a proper slugger can do.

I wasn't aware of Michael's score but still, that's only two, and one of them with a mulligan, making a perfect score in extreme ft is rare as hen's teeth. Amazing accomplishment (s).

You've surely seen all the pellet vs slug debate on the PHX matches, would be VERY interesting to see how a slug gun firing on all cylinders does.

 

[zx10wall]

I wasn't aware of Michael's score but still, that's only two, and one of them with a mulligan, making a perfect score in extreme ft is rare as hen's teeth. Amazing accomplishment (s).

You've surely seen all the pellet vs slug debate on the PHX matches, would be VERY interesting to see how a slug gun firing on all cylinders does.

Yes, I’ve seen the doubt that slugger can perform, from 100 yards and in, as well as the best pellet shooters. I know some can and I suspect certain combos (shooter, gun & slug) can top the best pellet combos in blustery conditions.

 

[Franklink]

Yes, I’ve seen the doubt that slugger can perform, from 100 yards and in, as well as the best pellet shooters. I know some can and I suspect certain combos (shooter, gun & slug) can top the best pellet combos in blustery conditions.

I've always held the stance that slugs SHOULD be outperforming the high bc pellets, but they just haven't yet. Would love to see it happen and may just need the right shooter and the right gun.

That's why I said it'd be a good experiment to have you come shoot one of the matches with slugs. It'd finally be the control group that we need to help answer the question about if slugs are actually the shiz, or if we're just being told they are.

 

[zx10wall]

I've always held the stance that slugs SHOULD be outperforming the high bc pellets, but they just haven't yet. Would love to see it happen and may just need the right shooter and the right gun.

That's why I said it'd be a good experiment to have you come shoot one of the matches with slugs. It'd finally be the control group that we need to help answer the question about if slugs are actually the shiz, or if we're just being told they are.

We’ve seen slugs perform better in Texas in Benchrest Silhouette (60 to 100 yards) several times.

 

[Franklink]

We’ve seen slugs perform better in Texas in Benchrest Silhouette (60 to 100 yards) several times.

Which goes back to why I'd like to see some Xtreme Troyer factors for the Texas courses. It would give us a metric to compare difficulty levels, and make a more valid (or not) comparison.

 

[zx10wall]

Which goes back to why I'd like to see some Xtreme Troyer factors for the Texas courses. It would give us a metric to compare difficulty levels, and make a more valid (or not) comparison.

Slugs don’t get shot in Texas for XFT. Again, we’ve seen slugs outperform pellets for BRS (Benchrest).

Hopefully Art and or Ron get the data together. Ben, Bobby, Sandy, Mike B., Michael W., Robert B. And Larry P. amongst all our regulars, have all shot this TEXtreme course. Fairly sure they can attest to its extreme level. But yes, again, would love to see the troyer of all courses.

 

[Franklink]

.........But yes, again, would love to see the troyer of all courses.

I know this whole XFT grand prix circuit business is in its infancy, but the Troyer factor might be a way to gain gp points at one's local matches? The details would all need worked out, preferably by a vote of the shooters, but something like winning a monthly match that has an average Troyer above a certain level gets the winner some points? That would be a way to get more shooters involved, since the percentage of those that are going to be able to travel to multiple GPs in a year will likely remain relatively small.

It would just depend on the direction in which the GP concept heads: make it inclusive and growth-promoting, versus.....not.

 

[zx10wall]

I know this whole XFT grand prix circuit business is in its infancy, but the Troyer factor might be a way to gain gp points at one's local matches? The details would all need worked out, preferably by a vote of the shooters, but something like winning a monthly match that has an average Troyer above a certain level gets the winner some points? That would be a way to get more shooters involved, since the percentage of those that are going to be able to travel to multiple GPs in a year will likely remain relatively small.

It would just depend on the direction in which the GP concept heads: make it inclusive and growth-promoting, versus.....not.

That’s a massively good idea.

 

[Franklink]

As for the slug thing, yeah, seems like the monthly AZ XFT matches offer the unique opportunity to see a comparison of slugs versus pellets on the same course.

And online communication is hard, without the non-verbal aspects of communication.......but I would actually really love to see you make it out here with a tip-top slug rig. I have a ton of sincere interest in knowing the outcome, and not to be in a "told ya so" way, but in a true knowledge seeking manner. The ballistics of airguns is a personal niche hobby within a hobby for me. If you kick everybody's arses with the slugs, I'll be the first to congratulate you.

 

[Cloud9AG]

I know this whole XFT grand prix circuit business is in its infancy, but the Troyer factor might be a way to gain gp points at one's local matches? The details would all need worked out, preferably by a vote of the shooters, but something like winning a monthly match that has an average Troyer above a certain level gets the winner some points? That would be a way to get more shooters involved, since the percentage of those that are going to be able to travel to multiple GPs in a year will likely remain relatively small.

It would just depend on the direction in which the GP concept heads: make it inclusive and growth-promoting, versus.....not.

Without knowing the "as yet non-existent" Troyer factor for an EFT course, you couldn't do what you say of course.
You might look at what AAFTA does for GP scores; their method doesn't require nor take into account the Troyer factors. What happens is the highest score in the GP match, regardless of class is set to be 100%, then all other scores in the match are normalized to that highest score. The classes are then separated and the finishing spots in each class are based on their % hits with 100% being the highest possible score. With all GP matches following this method, it leads to an equal comparison with other GP matches and the ability to fairly determine a GP winner. With the GP championship in AAFTA we only count your 3 highest scores towards the championship. Doing so encourages shooters to travel to at least 3 matches, but doesn't penalize those that cannot attend more than that.
Jeff

 

[Franklink]

Jeff, the details need worked out, but I was suggesting a means by which shooters that can't travel to GPs would be able to get points from shooting well at local matches that meet a certain criteria (a high enough level of difficulty) as determined by that matches Troyer factor and whatever predetermined cut-off (say an average Extreme Troyer factor of 36, for example).

We're in the first year, but there were GPs in AZ, TX, OR, and UT. Hypothetically speaking, say a club in the Northeast gets together and starts hosting monthly Extreme FT matches. Those local shooters are not likely to travel to a GP in AZ, TX, OR, or UT. Creating a means by which they can obtain points would be an inclusive gesture. And if this hypothetical geographically isolated club did decide to host a GP, it would be primarily the same shooters that are already coming to their monthly matches.

AAFTA's Grand Prix structure favors wealth (financially able to travel) and retirement status (don't have to take time off work to travel), just stating the facts. I was suggesting that it'd be nice if we could figure out a more inclusive method for crowning a yearly, national extreme field target champion.

The decision will need to be made about whether the national extreme ft champion will be a good shooter that is able to travel a lot, or the best shooter taking part in EFT matches wherever they're located.

 

[Franklink]

Derrick is actually a perfect example of what I'm trying to convey with my previous comments. I know he didn't come to Utah or AZ GPs, and I don't hink he went to OR?

But he frequently does very well at the TX matches (could even be said that he dominates them). Heck, he's the only guy to have shot a perfect EFT score (without a mulligan). So, the fact that he is one of the best EFT shooters is fairly evident. Yet, he doesn't have very many points going into the finals match at EBR next month. He will therefore be climbing out of a deep hole to be crowned the national EFT champ for this year, even though he may be the most talented shooter. Seems like room for improvement is all I'm saying.

 

[Cloud9AG]

Jeff, the details need worked out, but I was suggesting a means by which shooters that can't travel to GPs would be able to get points from shooting well at local matches that meet a certain criteria (a high enough level of difficulty) as determined by that matches Troyer factor and whatever predetermined cut-off (say an average Extreme Troyer factor of 36, for example).

We're in the first year, but there were GPs in AZ, TX, OR, and UT. Hypothetically speaking, say a club in the Northeast gets together and starts hosting monthly Extreme FT matches. Those local shooters are not likely to travel to a GP in AZ, TX, OR, or UT. Creating a means by which they can obtain points would be an inclusive gesture. And if this hypothetical geographically isolated club did decide to host a GP, it would be primarily the same shooters that are already coming to their monthly matches.

AAFTA's Grand Prix structure favors wealth (financially able to travel) and retirement status (don't have to take time off work to travel), just stating the facts. I was suggesting that it'd be nice if we could figure out a more inclusive method for crowning a yearly, national extreme field target champion.

The decision will need to be made about whether the national extreme ft champion will be a good shooter that is able to travel a lot, or the best shooter taking part in EFT matches wherever they're located.

Ok that wasn't clear to me in your prior post. I understand wanting to be more inclusive.

The intent of AAFTA's GP structure is to encourage people to travel, yes, in order to support other FT clubs and create friendships that span our nation and make our organization stronger. One reason we have the 3GP limit is to reduce the amount of travel required, and many guys carpool and room together when traveling so their financial outlay is less.

One thing I forgot to mention is that each GP must adhere to the GP guidelines, and one of those is that the Troyer Factor must be between 28 ad 36T. So we actually do reference a difficulty factor when setting up the matches, just not when calculating results.

 

[zx10wall]

The current XFT GP reminds me of the American Kennel Club Dog Show world (we, mostly my wife, show & breed Grand Champion Staffordshire Bull Terriers). A dog collects points to obtain his Championship level and ranking within the breed. The more shows you attend, the more chances for points. My dog could show 8-10 times a year. Another could show 200 times a year. My dog could be selected Best of Breed at all 8-10 shows ~ 100% BOB results. The dog that shows 200 times a year could have a much lower BOB percentage, say 40% and still collect way more points. The 40% dog is #1 for the breed in the country. Mine could be ranked #15. It doesn't even matter that my dog, when facing the #1 dog, had a superior win ratio over the 200 time shower. Anyway, does that seem right?

Of course AKC makes tons more money on the dog that shows 200 times and they are inclined to encourage and award this. And they do...........

I encourage a new way. We don't need to follow what AAFTA does. There is obviously many things that AAFTA does that we should follow but not all.

BTW, the only XFT GP I competed in was Texas'. I didn't collect any points and I shot the same .30 Cricket. Unfortunately, I will not be attending EBR due to family matters. I will greatly miss it and all the folks I'd like to see. Priorities dictate and that's the way it is.

 

[Centercut]

The intent of AAFTA's GP structure is to encourage people to travel, yes, in order to support other FT clubs and create friendships that span our nation and make our organization stronger. One reason we have the 3GP limit is to reduce the amount of travel required, and many guys carpool and room together when traveling so their financial outlay is less.

Bingo. And therein lies the rub. The INTENT of a GP series, and Jeff stated above, is to encourage travel and camaraderie between clubs. This first year we had two shooters travel to all four events, two shooters travel to three, and about ten shooters travel to two, out of the 104 shooters total that participated. A few shooters that were totally against travel for points - travelled for points.

For 2023, we will have additional clubs, and for areas like Phoenix that have a few airgun clubs, there's nothing saying each club can't have its own GP event, so that the AZ area could amass points sans much travel. Texas has a few regular field target clubs other than Ranchito Robinson in Clifton that could host GP events.

We placed a limit on the amount of points possible (6) to prevent what Derrick above describes happening with the AKC and dog shows. Without mandating participation in two (or three) events, I'm not sure how the AAFTA method would work, although I think it is about the most fair way to go about awarding GP points... It is possible to attend one event and get significant points, as Justin Welch did in Utah, earning a point for his first event and 3 points for winning for a total of 4. One shooter that attended all four events has more than that, the other shooter that attended all four events has less than that.

 

[zx10wall]

A few shooters that were totally against travel for points - travelled for points.

True colors or change of heart showed up.

We placed a limit on the amount of points possible (6) to prevent what Derrick above describes happening with the AKC and dog shows. Without mandating participation in two (or three) events, I'm not sure how the AAFTA method would work, although I think it is about the most fair way to go about awarding GP points... It is possible to attend one event and get significant points, as Justin Welch did in Utah, earning a point for his first event and 3 points for winning for a total of 4. One shooter that attended all four events has more than that, the other shooter that attended all four events has less than that.

It's more fair than I realized. Thank you for the explanation.

Not ALL will be happy with any system, that's inevitable. I think XFT can do really great things and learn from mistakes others have made.

It's just so much fun!

 

[Franklink]

Bingo. And therein lies the rub. The INTENT of a GP series, and Jeff stated above, is to encourage travel and camaraderie between clubs.

That makes much more sense. GP champion is the shooter who rubs elbows and socializes the best.
All this time I thought we were working towards recognizing the best shooter.

 

[Centercut]

That makes much more sense. GP champion is the shooter who rubs elbows and socializes the best.
All this time I thought we were working towards recognizing the best shooter.

 

[AirNGasman]

Sorry I've been missing in action, Y'all.

Attached is the TEXtreme course Difficulty Factor information according to Cole's EFT Difficulty chart. Be aware I wasn't sure what the multiplier should be for standing shots, so I used a 1.5X multiplier on the Standing Lane 4 (bipod employed). Otherwise I'm confident in the accuracy of the information. IF my standing shot multiplier is correct, the TFT course Derrick cleaned is equivalent difficulty to AAFTA National Championship courses.

Spread-sheet wizards are welcome to extrapolate anything they like from this information, and post it.




View attachment TFT course details pdf.pdf

 

[Nofilters]

Without knowing the "as yet non-existent" Troyer factor for an EFT course, you couldn't do what you say of course.
You might look at what AAFTA does for GP scores; their method doesn't require nor take into account the Troyer factors. What happens is the highest score in the GP match, regardless of class is set to be 100%, then all other scores in the match are normalized to that highest score. The classes are then separated and the finishing spots in each class are based on their % hits with 100% being the highest possible score. With all GP matches following this method, it leads to an equal comparison with other GP matches and the ability to fairly determine a GP winner. With the GP championship in AAFTA we only count your 3 highest scores towards the championship. Doing so encourages shooters to travel to at least 3 matches, but doesn't penalize those that cannot attend more than that.
Jeff

There are more shooters than not that can't travel(money, time, religion etc.) so as Franklink was saying it makes it more inclusive. possibly a more significant growth nationwide. This way you could feasibly have one-day matches also that count.