Difficult choices

A little history...
A friend contacted me and asked if I would shorten a barrel on a BRK Commander to make it legal for pistol EFT. He was interested in that one because of the solid construction and bottle, which meant a good number of shots at the 20 ft lb level, vs the Atomic, which gets only a few shots at that power level. Now, the reason I am posting this is because I see so much misinformation about "what is the best caliber"... especially for FT. I am not trying to say that some won't work... only that there may be better choices if you have the option.

With that in mind, a 22 cal Commander arrived at my place. I contacted him and he wanted to shoot 18.1's at 700. Now that is NOT optimum in my experience so I set out to prove what might be a better choice before starting to cut on anything. I then tested 177 10.3s at a couple of velocities, 177 13.43's, 177 13.43 MRD's, the 22 18.1's, 22 15.89's, and 22 14.3 Cros Premier (old batch.... just to see). At the same time, I was conferring with @Franklink because he and I had done some testing in this link ... https://www.airgunnation.com/thread...eally-would-like-to-know.1274941/post-1334060 . His Veteran that had a 20 cal LW barrel I fitted for him has been such a good shooter, I wanted that as a consideration. I had picked up several 20 cal barrel's back in the 90's and all have been wonderful, so far. Here is a spreadsheet (thanks @Franklink) that shows a synopsis of a lot of our efforts.

Gun/Barrel
Method
Pellet
Average speed @ muzzleFpeBC (via EASY BC, using GA)
BRK CommanderLabradar.22/16.1gr (old 15.89s)
732.41​
19​
0.0241​
BRK CommanderLabradar.22/18.1gr
702.56​
19​
0.0223​
Safari (choked polygonal)Labradar.177/13.43 MRD
830.3​
20​
0.0358​
Safari (choked polygonal)Labradar.177/10.3
896.25​
18​
0.0343​
BRK CommanderLabradar.22/14.3 Crosman Premier
743.91​
17​
0.0295​
Safari (choked polygonal)Labradar.22/16.1gr (old 15.89s)
723​
18​
0.0296​
Veteran (choked 12 l&g)10 shot averages at 0 and 54 yards via chronograph.20/13.73
795​
19​
0.0371​
USFT (choked polygonal)10 shot averages at 0 and 53 yards via chronograph.177/10.34
925.6​
19.6​
0.0322​
Brocock Concept Elite (choked 12 l&g)10 shot averages at 0 and 53 yards, via chronograph.177/10.34
880.5​
17.8​
0.0321​
BSA Gold Star (hammer forged 12 l&g)10 shot averages at 0 and 53 yards, via chronograph.177/10.34
880.7​
17.8​
0.0282​
Brocock Concept Elite (choked 12 l&G)10 shot averages at 0 and 53 yards, via chronograph.177/8.44
937.9​
16.5​
0.0241​
BSA Gold Star (hammer forged 12 l&g)10 shot averages at 0 and 53 yards, via chronograph.177/8.44
933.2​
16.3
0.0245​
SAFARI WITH CHOKED POLYLabradar0.177/10.34
891.2381​
18​
0.0339​
SAFARI WITH UNCHOKED POLYLabradar0.177/10.34
889​
18​
0.0351​
DELTA WOLF WITH 23” CHOKED POLYLabradar0.177/10.34
897.1818​
18.5​
0.0362​
THEOBEN WITH 23” CHOKED HW STANDARD RIFLINGLabradar0.177/10.34
896.1667​
18.5​
0.0348​
DELTA WOLF WITH 17” STANDARD RIFLEDLabradar0.177/10.34
884.6842​
18​
0.0302​
WOLVERINE WITH 17” STANDARD RIFLINGLabradar0.177/10.34
911.5​
19​
0.0297​
STEYR LG100 WITH 16” STANDARD RIFLINGLabradar0.177/10.34
884.5417​
18​
0.0331​
BLUEBABY AA PROTARGET WITH 23” CHOKED HW STANDARD RIFLINGLabradar0.177/10.34
880.6471​
18​
0.0367​
AA RN10 WITH 21 INCH STANDARD RIFLING CHOKEDLabradar0.177/8.44
859.1579​
14​
0.0336​
DAYSTATE CRX ST WITH STANDARD RIFLING CHOKEDLabradar0.177/10.34
884.3125​
18​
0.0293​
DAYSTATE TSAR WITH 23” UNCHOKED POLYLabradar0.177/10.34
938.2105​
20.2​
0.0330​
USFT WITH 23 INCH CHOKED POLYLabradar0.177/10.34
914.65​
19​
0.0370​
USFT WITH 23INCH CHOKED POLY AND REDUCED VELOCITYLabradar0.177/10.34
901.8571​
18.6​
0.0388​
Red text indicates BC > 0.035

12/13/2022 Additional data collection session

Gun/BarrelMethodPelletAverage fps @ muzzleFPEBC (via EASY BC, using GA)
BRK CommanderLabradar.22/18.1
702.56​
20​
0.022​
BRK CommanderLabradar.22/16.1 (old 15.89s)
732.41​
19​
0.0231​
BRK CommanderLabradar.22/14.3 (CP)
743.91​
17​
0.0282​
Safari with choked polyLabradar.177/13.4 Monster
836.15​
20​
0.0301​
Safari with choked polyLabradar.177/13.4 MRD
830.3​
20​
0.0348​
Safari with choked polyLabradar.177/10.3 Exact
896.25​
18​
0.0338​
Safari with choked polyLabradar.177/16.1 Beast
723.04​
18​
0.0284​
Delta Wolf with slow twist poly (reg of 159 bar)Labradar *.22/25.4 MRD
912.97​
47​
0.0522​
Delta Wolf with slow twist poly (reg of 159 bar)Labradar *.22/25.4 MRD
943.59​
49​
0.0527​
Delta Wolf with slow twist poly (reg of 159 bar)Labradar *.22/25.4 MRD
877.18​
43​
0.0492​
Delta Wolf with slow twist poly (reg of 110 bar)Labradar *.22/18.1 Jumbo Heavy
875.23​
30​
0.0387​
Delta Wolf with slow twist poly (reg of 110 bar)Labradar *.22/18.1 Jumbo Heavy
689.37​
19​
0.0339​
Delta Wolf with slow twist poly (reg of 110 barLabradar *.22/16.1 “Jumbo-old batch”
725.58​
18​
0.0316​
Delta Wolf with slow twist poly (reg of 110 bar)Labradar *.22/14.3 CP
761.88​
20​
0.0248​
* “Note that the LabRadar was a MINIMUM of 8 fps slower than the DW showed with a maximum of 26 fps slower and each pellet had a different error. QUITE weird and I would trust the DW more. Within each pellet, you can see it's consistent and was consistent in error with the DW.”

These were mostly completed at my place at elevation of 3100 ft. There is a lot to look at here and I will expand on this more later and it's likely that there will be input from the others involved in this project.
Here is a pic of the project "pifle"
20221230_145051.jpg

A couple of details:
20221229_163643.jpg

20230103_113946.jpg

And a test target at 50 yds:
20230107_152803.jpg

20230107_152824.jpg

Now I want to point out where the original 22, 18.1s would have been ... a bc of 0.0223. Note that the WORST 177 in our previous testing was a bc of 0.0293 and the best 177s and both 20s are well above that. I fully realize that the bc is not all there is to wind drift but it comprises the bulk of the equation.
I will jump back into this and show some examples but you can easily run the numbers in Strelok and draw some of your own conclusions. The bc was derived from the difference between the 0 yard velocity and the 50 yard velocity and I did multiple shots averaged to find these numbers. Also, having shot all of these except the Veteran 20 of @Franklink extensively, I'm confident that the bc's pretty well line up with pellet drop and wind deflection.
Again, not saying that this is all hard and fast for choices of ammo but it was quite easy to see the difference in wind sensitivity of the 22 cal 18.1s, 15.89s and the 177 16.1s to the 10.34s and 13.43s and also the 20 cals. It's easy to see why @Motorhead uses the 20 for FT, as well as a few others.
Bob
 
It was really fun project to be involved in, although my part was minimal, mostly just compiling the info into the table.

I'm glad @Arzrover chose to share this information publicly. There is a massive amount of data contained therein. Lots of takeaways, on twist rates, and rifling profiles, and optimum speeds for specific pellets. Extremely useful information for anyone willing to spend a bit of time analyzing it all.

I told him already, but this is perhaps the most comprehensive collection of sub20fpe ballistic coefficients that has ever been done. And not only is it very comprehensive, but the way he chose to do it makes the results quite reliable.

Tons of work too. Just think about how many guns he had to get out and get set up in order to do this.

Thank you!

Now that expressing appreciation is out of the way.....

Derrick sent me some photos of his groups from the .20 and they look just like the ones shared above. Same gun, two different shooters, and exceptional accuracy. I think those Ranchito Ron Robinson shooters out in Texas are gonna have some serious competition from Derrick and his VERY special .20 custom pistol build in Ron's Extreme Pistol Field Target events.

What conclusions did you AGN members arrive at through examining the data table?

And, is anyone surprised by the findings?
 
This is a great compilation of work. Thank you both for sharing it with us. I have not gotten into field target competition yet, but I would definitely be looking at the specs in these charts first. The caliber, barrel type, specific pellets, speeds, energy, bc; this is worth a long study before choosing and building a dedicated gun for FT, that is s fact.
 
Thanks Franklink, but your contribution is much more than just compiling.😉

To clarify a little, the above test target was 177 with 13.43 MRD's but I achieved at least as good with both 20 cals.

It was an interesting project that I've wanted an excuse to do for a long time. It was impressive enough that I fitted a 20 barrel for my Delta Wolf and that fits the Ghost also. This is one of many such groups at 50 with the 13.4s at 20 ft lb.
(I'll go back and edit this in... can't upload for some reason right now... it's very good though)

Bob
 
Man that is a ton of work, Bob!!!

Many years ago I used the 22 cal 16 grainers once in a FT match and missed the whole FT target off to the side twice that day which opened my eyes and also sparked my curiosity as to why. Back then I didn't understand anything about BC's and velocity and thought because those 22 cal pellets were heavier than the .177's it'd make up for less fps. These same targets I'd never miss off to the side of in the same winds using the 10.3gr 17 cal.

Did you guys try the JSB Diabolo Exact Heavy .20 Cal, 15.89 gr at all? Must be a reason why FT shooters don't shoot them much.

Congrats Derrick that's fine Textreme P-EFT gun!
 
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Did you guys try the JSB Diabolo Exact Heavy .20 Cal, 15.89 gr at all? Must be a reason why FT shooters don't shoot them much.
The. 20/15.89 is a GREAT pellet. Bob's been texting me about how they're shooting at 20fpe from the .20 barrel that he machined for the Delta Wolf and they look REALLY good, perhaps even better than the .20/13.73 @ 800fps. Biggest problem I see with the 15.89s for regular ft use is that they weigh 15.89...theyd have to be kept under 750fps to be legal. Then comes the discussion of loopy but with a good BC versus flatter and more leeway to range distance incorrectly. Sounds like Bob's still testing them, but the .20/15.89 seem to perhaps be an exception to the trend we saw with the .22s, where heavy and slow was NOT a good idea, in terms of BC and in the context of less than 20fpe.

I've only ever collected BCs on them as slow as 860 and it was around 0.038-0.04. That's still quite a bit higher fpe than ft legal though. I've shot them as fast as 980-990 and started to see flyers above 950. My .20 barrel seems to prefer the 15.89s at around 915-920 and produces BCs of around 0.048 at that speed, again, far above legal for regular field target.
 
One of the many reasons to post this was the idea being propagated that heavy and slow has less wind drift than fast and light. I'm not trying to convince you to change what you're shooting, throwing pellets is fun , regardless ... only showing some data we have collected that might lead to the most optimum choice. A couple of points in the bc will likely have little significance. In testing all these, it was pretty apparent that for domed pellets , right at 890 fps was the highest bc and also, barrels differ in what the bc of any given pellet may be.

This thread on GTA goes into aspects of bc ... one being velocity ... very informative and has had an influence on some of this.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=84534.msg811782#msg811782

There's a bunch more to look at...
Bob
 
The. 20/15.89 is a GREAT pellet. Bob's been texting me about how they're shooting at 20fpe from the .20 barrel that he machined for the Delta Wolf and they look REALLY good, perhaps even better than the .20/13.73 @ 800fps. Biggest problem I see with the 15.89s for regular ft use is that they weigh 15.89...theyd have to be kept under 750fps to be legal. Then comes the discussion of loopy but with a good BC versus flatter and more leeway to range distance incorrectly. Sounds like Bob's still testing them, but the .20/15.89 seem to perhaps be an exception to the trend we saw with the .22s, where heavy and slow was NOT a good idea, in terms of BC and in the context of less than 20fpe.

I've only ever collected BCs on them as slow as 860 and it was around 0.038-0.04. That's still quite a bit higher fpe than ft legal though. I've shot them as fast as 980-990 and started to see flyers above 950. My .20 barrel seems to prefer the 15.89s at around 915-920 and produces BCs of around 0.048 at that speed, again, far above legal for regular field target.

Thanks for the reply and info.

Last year I was shooting the 13.4gr for FT but I should try the 10.3's in my Thomas this year some to compare. The 10.3's were fine for PFT so I imagine fine at almost 20 fpe??