I have seen .223 rounds tumble in flight toward the target. Leaving slotted rips in the target instead of round holes. I ask if pellets tumble for that same reason, not all of the holes in my targets are round holes. some seem to be somewhat slotted. Just a curious observation. Thanks for the replies.
Do pellets tumble ?
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They will if something is amiss. When I was working up a load for a 44mag, my first attempt ended with tumbling. Dropped a few grains of powder and no tumbling and grouped well. I have to say I've not experienced that with pellets, even at very fast speeds. The only time I've seen tumbling in pellets is either a deformity, or clipping.
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I've had situations of spiraling (dirty barrels) but have never witnessed true tumbling but I'm sure it's possible.
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Generally, no they don’t. They are skirt stabilized and so it takes a lot to make them tumble.
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They may tumble if they are clipping the moderator, if using a mod that is.
Sometimes when looking at a target that doesn't show truly 'round' holes, it could be that there is no backing to the paper, which allows tearing in odd shapes too.
mike
Sometimes when looking at a target that doesn't show truly 'round' holes, it could be that there is no backing to the paper, which allows tearing in odd shapes too.
mike
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I print on thinnest card stock , i think it is 60 or 67 lb weight paper . just a cheap home computer printer , no more rips !
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They have a backwards center of balance and want to fly skirt first, but like already mentioned the drag on the skirt self corrects. But because of this, they can do some really wonky things during flight. With modern high speed cameras you can see this in plenty of videos on the ol youtoobs.
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I made some targets from Styrofoam/poster board. like a presentation board from dollar tree. All shots from the same distance, same rifle, same tin of domed pellets. The more accurate shots have round holes, the not so accurate ones seem oval.
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Pellets will certainly yaw and spiral, but it's not because they're trying to turn all the way around. It has more to do with the yaw stabilizing forces not damping much so when they do get off-line, it can take several oscillations or gyrations to fully 'calm' the projectile. And that can be a significant portion of the distance to the target.
Miles (Ballisticboy) has posted more detailed, more technically rigorous discussions of these behaviors. It's easy to search because he doesn't post a ton and what he does post is excellent.
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It is highly unlikely that pellets will tumble, as the gyroscopic stability shows large increases as the pellet slows down. There can be a large increase in peak yaw angles at longer ranges, as dynamic stability appears to be poor. This would seem to be more likely on heavy pellets where the centre of gravity is closer to the tail, moving it closer to the aerodynamic centre of pressure. The increased peak yaw angles could lead shooters to think there is a possibility of tumbling.
The lack of tumbling has nothing to do with drag as pellets are not, never have been and hopefully never will be drag stabilized. I explained pellet aerodynamic stability in a thread some time ago, but unfortunately drag stabilization keeps appearing in posts, and videos, as in the above-mentioned video series.
The lack of tumbling has nothing to do with drag as pellets are not, never have been and hopefully never will be drag stabilized. I explained pellet aerodynamic stability in a thread some time ago, but unfortunately drag stabilization keeps appearing in posts, and videos, as in the above-mentioned video series.
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No, basic aerodynamic knowledge as learned in the most basic aerodynamics courses. Nothing to do with "opinions"
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For the record I am not suggesting pellets tumble during flight, and I understand rotation aides in stability. But to claim the pellet skirt does not affect stability is silly. Any 9 year old can throw a shuttlecock with zero rotation and understand why.
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I don't personally know of any 9 year old that can throw a shuttlecock at 38000 RPM. The spin rates of pellets, bullets, shells or any spin stabilized projectile make a huge difference to its behaviour in flight, with or without shape defects.
You cannot use shuttlecocks as examples of how pellets fly, as they are completely different. The pellet skirt does provide stability, but not through drag, but through generating lift as explained here https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/aerodynamic-stability-of-pellets.1276895/. Shuttlecocks have porous skirts which are orders of magnitude larger than the rest of the shuttlecock and thus use a different mechanism. They also have to be able to turn through 180 degrees when hit by a racket and crush up practically into a ball when smashed by leading players, hence the different design and properties.
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I would count that as an exceptionally large disturbance and not representative of pellet flight.
David
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Whip me , beat me, stomp my head now. Tie me down and call me Edna!
No Edna, diabolos do NOT want to flip over and fly backwards , and no Edna they do NOT want to tumble, and no Edna a diabolo is NOT drag stabilized:
Rafeie M, Teymourtash A.~ Aerodynamic and dynamic analysis of three common 4.5 mm-caliber pellets in transonic flow
Corey K. ~ Airgun pellet performance using computational fluid dynamics
Salimipour S, Teymourtash A, Mamourian M. ~ Investigation and comparison of performance of some air gun projectiles with nose shape modifications
And no Edna diabolo pellets are NOT shuttlecocks:
Cooke A. ~ Shuttlecock aerodynamics.
Want to use your "safe word" Edna?!? As I have 8 more research papers on diabolo pellets! Or would you prefer:
Ou K, Castonguay P, Jameson A. ~ Computational Sports Aerodynamics of a Moving Sphere: Simulating a Ping Pong Ball in Free Flight?!?
And baby, don't be surprised and start crying when I tell you a diabolo and a Frisbee both spin but are way different:
Potts J, Crowther J. ~ Frisbee Aerodynamics
Lyrics from "Edna -Strapped" Thanks to Dr. Demento.
No Edna, diabolos do NOT want to flip over and fly backwards , and no Edna they do NOT want to tumble, and no Edna a diabolo is NOT drag stabilized:
Rafeie M, Teymourtash A.~ Aerodynamic and dynamic analysis of three common 4.5 mm-caliber pellets in transonic flow
Corey K. ~ Airgun pellet performance using computational fluid dynamics
Salimipour S, Teymourtash A, Mamourian M. ~ Investigation and comparison of performance of some air gun projectiles with nose shape modifications
And no Edna diabolo pellets are NOT shuttlecocks:
Cooke A. ~ Shuttlecock aerodynamics.
Want to use your "safe word" Edna?!? As I have 8 more research papers on diabolo pellets! Or would you prefer:
Ou K, Castonguay P, Jameson A. ~ Computational Sports Aerodynamics of a Moving Sphere: Simulating a Ping Pong Ball in Free Flight?!?
And baby, don't be surprised and start crying when I tell you a diabolo and a Frisbee both spin but are way different:
Potts J, Crowther J. ~ Frisbee Aerodynamics
Lyrics from "Edna -Strapped" Thanks to Dr. Demento.
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"I would count that as an exceptionally large disturbance and not representative of pellet flight."
Yes, it is a large disturbance.
Simply pointing out that a pellet MAY tumble if clipped. In other words, if the OP hasn't checked for clipping, that may be the cause of his observations with his pellet experience.
mike
Yes, it is a large disturbance.
Simply pointing out that a pellet MAY tumble if clipped. In other words, if the OP hasn't checked for clipping, that may be the cause of his observations with his pellet experience.
mike
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We agree on that. Tumbling pellets are an airgun issue (or grossly defective pellet) and not a ballistic behavior thing. It’s like testing the braking performance of tires on a car that’s rolling.
Troy when do your doctors release you into the wild again? The stress might be showing bud. Fun fact I downloaded those papers and a few more last night. I also aligned myself of the formal definition of drag force, which I have been guilty of violating. I have a lot of reading to do.
Troy when do your doctors release you into the wild again? The stress might be showing bud. Fun fact I downloaded those papers and a few more last night. I also aligned myself of the formal definition of drag force, which I have been guilty of violating. I have a lot of reading to do.
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