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Do well run companies set our expectations too high? (Armageddon Gear)

I placed an order 4 days ago directly from Armageddon for one Shmedium bag....and it hasn't shipped yet. I called and was told it "should" ship tomorrow.

Do you think some companies that run seamlessly (Airgun Depot, Krale, Accu Tac, Zan, NSA, Athlon, Saber, etc.) make other companies look bad bc they set expectations too high?

Or do some companies need to WAKE UP and provide better service??

It's 2023, it should not take 5 days to put ONE item in a box and hand it to your delivery guy.
 
Do you know how much business this company does in a typical week? Do you know how many folks they employ? Do you know if they employ a dedicated shipping manager? Just saying-
Don't forget the question, are they an Actual stocking dealer or are they just a website, middleman operation...

One of the biggest, email bombing, airgun dealers out there is basically just a middleman broker outfit...

In that case yes it will take much longer to ship a purchase
 
I'm pretty young at 35 years old and I remember ordering CDs through the mail. It usually took over a month to get them. Nowadays, you hop on Amazon and get it same day at times. Yes, some well oiled machines have made patience a thing of the past, but I still don't give small businesses a hard time for taking longer. Profit margins and sales volume aren't always high enough to justify paying another employee. Sometimes things back up and they can only go so fast without creating bigger problems.
 
Do you know how much business this company does in a typical week? Do you know how many folks they employ? Do you know if they employ a dedicated shipping manager? Just saying-
I don't and no offense I do not care. If they sell products and accept your money it is their job to provide that product. It is not 1982 when you bought something thru a 1800 number and it said allow 6-8 weeks for delivery. It is 2023.

Companies have agreements with Fed Ex, USPS, DHL whoever and a delivery man comes EVERY DAY to get packages that need to be mailed out. So this company only needs to put ONE bag in a box, slap a label on it and give to the delivery man. And that takes a WEEK?!?! STOP IT! (Just saying)
 
I spend about a quarter mil on tech purchases every year and if I give a new vendor a shot and they take forever to get a shipment out the door they wind up on a blacklist and I never look back.
100% agreed. You get ONE shot with me to impress me or you are dead to me. I am in business myself and personal relationships and quality service are paramount to my success (I sell life insurance) If I gave bad service these people would not only not buy from me but also not refer their friends and family to me.

That said, if anyone needs life insurance.....lol just kidding. =)
 
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Depends on alot of things for me.
How bad do I WANT that thing?
How much do I NEED that thing?
Can it wait?
How long can it wait?
Can I pay for faster shipping?
Is it readily available?
When will it be in stock?

Longest I've waited was about 5 months.🤷‍♂️ but I knew it wasn't going to be fast 😕
Also agree with this. I waited 6 months for my FX Impact but it was new and I was on a waiting list. I was willing to wait. Armageddon makes great bags but so does Black Branch, Cole Tac etc.

If a company makes a one of a kind product (or the top of the line product) they can pretty much do whatever they want. But competition ALWAYS catches up!! Kodak didn't think they needed to transition to digital cameras. They once controlled 70% of the camera/film industry....Where are they now?
 
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Yes, I think expectations are set too high.
From our perspective, dealers and distributors are better suited to getting things out much faster.
In fact that's really one of the only places where they can provide value adds over other retailers.
For manufacturers like Armageddon gear and ourselves, fulfillment time is always going to be an afterthought. We are manufacturers, not fulfillment centers.

Furthermore, many of these retailers are slow to order, don't stock everything or don't push every brand the way they aught to. So that puts pressure on manufacturers to provide a direct method for customers to order.
I won't speak for all manufacturers, but when things are made in-house and resources are limited, often times capitol investments are made in machinery/production not shipping efficiencies.
For example, why put a shipping table there when another machine could go there, or hiring another machine operator instead of a shipper.

That's not to say improvements shouldn't be made across all areas; a balance needs to be made. BUT to hinge the liking or disliking of a product or company on how fast it leaves is not a good metric for durable goods.

One last insight into this specific industry, especially for us, the volume on these parts are not really that high, so comparing the speed and service you might get from high volume products is not apples to apples.
 
Yes, I think expectations are set too high.
From our perspective, dealers and distributors are better suited to getting things out much faster.
In fact that's really one of the only places where they can provide value adds over other retailers.
For manufacturers like Armageddon gear and ourselves, fulfillment time is always going to be an afterthought. We are manufacturers, not fulfillment centers.

Furthermore, many of these retailers are slow to order, don't stock everything or don't push every brand the way they aught to. So that puts pressure on manufacturers to provide a direct method for customers to order.
I won't speak for all manufacturers, but when things are made in-house and resources are limited, often times capitol investments are made in machinery/production not shipping efficiencies.
For example, why put a shipping table there when another machine could go there, or hiring another machine operator instead of a shipper.

That's not to say improvements shouldn't be made across all areas; a balance needs to be made. BUT to hinge the liking or disliking of a product or company on how fast it leaves is not a good metric for durable goods.

One last insight into this specific industry, especially for us, the volume on these parts are not really that high, so comparing the speed and service you might get from high volume products is not apples to apples.
Stephen this is a good point. It is good to hear the perspective from the other side. I appreciate it. Customers will always look at it from their POV and manufacturers and retailers from theirs. I get that. BUT one does not exist without the other. Can you guess which one?? lol Customers pay all your bills, at the end of the day they need to be thought of FIRST....not as "an after thought" as you put it.

I noticed DonnyFL no longer sells moderators on their site. Perhaps they learned fulfillment was not worth it. They seemed to have made a wise decision. Lose the retail sales and sell 100% of their products at wholesale and just let the retailers handle all fulfillment. Smart.

Armageddon has chosen not to do this. So the customer suffers.

I do not enjoy complaining, I am the first one to come on here and PRAISE Krale, Airgun Depot and all the companies who do STELLAR business. I praise them bc I hope that praise will convince a customer to use them bc THEY DESERVE IT!! On the flip side, if a company seems to not value a customer I will warn others.

I also want to say, I understand people like you are....artists/craftsmen you are not business minded, I get that. BUT you are now "in business" so you have to learn that end of things or hire someone who does.

I will say, I recently spoke to someone who complimented you. They said your business practice has gotten substantially better over time. I am glad to hear that. You make incredible products I love seeing your inventory grow and see your parts on more and more guns. I recently bought your PRS buttstock/bag rider. Incredibly well made!!
 
I noticed DonnyFL no longer sells moderators on their site. Perhaps they learned fulfillment was not worth it. They seemed to have made a wise decision. Lose the retail sales and sell 100% of their products at wholesale and just let the retailers handle all fulfillment. Smart.
I believe if you dig into this you'll find it has more to do with some Alphabet org case against DonnyFl and not because it wasn't worth selling direct. I don't know any other details.
I also want to say, I understand people like you are....artists/craftsmen you are not business minded, I get that. BUT you are now "in business" so you have to learn that end of things or hire someone who does.
Grumpy engineers like myself generally take offense at being called artists and less so craftsmen lol.
It's just that there is no business value in fulfilling a package 2, 3, 10days sooner (not that anyone is trying to make people wait), if it means hiring multiple people and spending more on sqft needed for the increased speed. There is a cost to this that most customers are not willing to pay. Now, if someone came in and invested a million give or take into Armageddon or K&L the analysis showed that we get x number of cancelations when the order has been sitting for T number of days and the order retention justifies the investment, I'm all for it. Amazon knows exactly how fast it needs to get orders out to reduce cancelations. Well documented. But that's over millions of packages per day globally. For Airgun Depot for example, they are pushing large volumes of orders, have no storefront and order fulfillment time really factors into their business model.
Not to open the hood too far, we average 3 cancelations per year over delays or time to fulfill. To be honest I'd like to get our time to fulfill down lower than it is right now which is ~4 days (excluding preordered items). But is expanding the warehouse and or hiring a few 40-60k/year employees worth it for retaining 3 customers a year with an average order value of $150 for a total of $450? For smaller niche market manufacturers like myself and Armageddon, it would be a poor business choice. For Amazon and Airgun Depot, they have a different set of variables.

No company likes to see complaints. It's primarily annoying, but has the potential to create a bad reputation, warranted or often times not.
BUT as a self declared business savvy person, do you think it wise to spend at minimum 80k more per year to retain $450 and maybe $2000 in lost sales if someone complains a bit to a friend or something? Sunk costs, opportunity costs and liability be damned? I for one, would rather not loose $77,550 per year.

I think the solution to your frustration is better communication prior to you ordering the product.
Like a message on the product page "this will be shipping in 5 days" so you know before what you are to expect. This is easier said than done though and requires administrative sophistication especially with a large number of products.

A bit long winded, but I hope taking the time to explain we are not nimrod artists running around with paint brushes trying to frustrate our customers at every turn. I'm just not convinced that despite varying levels of business analysis one can perform, shipping is the key factor. Production of the THING is what matters more in my mind. But again balance, they both are needed, it's not totally one or the other.



I will say, I recently spoke to someone who complimented you. They said your business practice has gotten substantially better over time. I am glad to hear that. You make incredible products I love seeing your inventory grow and see your parts on more and more guns. I recently bought your PRS buttstock/bag rider. Incredibly well made!!
Glad you are liking the parts!
And with all the above said, we do strive to be better, even at the customer service and shipping levels.
 
I spend about a quarter mil on tech purchases every year and if I give a new vendor a shot and they take forever to get a shipment out the door they wind up on a blacklist and I never look back.
To clarify upon my comment, this is in particular to instances where there is a lack of communication. If the vendor is on top of things making sure that I as the customer are made aware of anticipated delays that is completely acceptable.

We all get that things can go fubar at any moment but at least tell me I'm pretty if im about to get f'ked.
 
I believe if you dig into this you'll find it has more to do with some 3 letter organization case against DonnyFl and not because it wasn't worth selling direct. I don't know any other details.

Grumpy engineers like myself generally take offense at being called artists and less so craftsmen lol.
It's just that there is no business value in fulfilling a package 2, 3, 10days sooner (not that anyone is trying to make people wait), if it means hiring multiple people and spending more on sqft needed for the increased speed. There is a cost to this that most customers are not willing to pay. Now, if someone came in and invested a million give or take into Armageddon or K&L the analysis showed that we get x number of cancelations when the order has been sitting for T number of days and the order retention justifies the investment, I'm all for it. Amazon knows exactly how fast it needs to get orders out to reduce cancelations. Well documented. But that's over millions of packages per day globally. For Airgun Depot for example, they are pushing large volumes of orders, have no storefront and order fulfillment time really factors into their business model.
Not to open the hood too far, we average 3 cancelations per year over delays or time to fulfill. To be honest I'd like to get our time to fulfill down lower than it is right now which is ~4 days (excluding preordered items). But is expanding the warehouse and or hiring a few 40-60k/year employees worth it for retaining 3 customers a year with an average order value of $150 for a total of $450? For smaller niche market manufacturers like myself and Armageddon, it would be a poor business choice. For Amazon and Airgun Depot, they have a different set of variables.

No company likes to see complaints. It's primarily annoying, but has the potential to create a bad reputation, warranted or often times not.
BUT as a self declared business savvy person, do you think it wise to spend at minimum 80k more per year to retain $450 and maybe $2000 in lost sales if someone complains a bit to a friend or something? Sunk costs, opportunity costs and liability be damned? I for one, would rather not loose $77,550 per year.

I think the solution to your frustration is better communication prior to you ordering the product.
Like a message on the product page "this will be shipping in 5 days" so you know before what you are to expect. This is easier said than done though and requires administrative sophistication especially with a large number of products.

A bit long winded, but I hope taking the time to explain we are not nimrod artists running around with paint brushes trying to frustrate our customers at every turn. I'm just not convinced that despite varying levels of business analysis one can perform, shipping is the key factor. Production of the THING is what matters more in my mind. But again balance, they both are needed, it's not totally one or the other.




Glad you are liking the parts!
And with all the above said, we do strive to be better, even at the customer service and shipping levels.

Again I appreciate the feedback.
What you said just reiterates that I would 100% outsource all my shipping and fulfillment to retailors. Going back to my original thread I believe standards and expectations have been set VERY high by companies who are perfected the customer experience.

And yes as a small business owner you do have to financially weigh out the options of what saves/makes you the most money. The best advice I could give any business owner is "hire your weaknesses" If you do not understand digital marketing, hire someone. If you struggle with fulfillment, outsource it. If I had to guess, as an engineer, I'm sure you'd prefer your time be spent making and developing new products, opposed to placing FB ads, photo shoots of products, fulfillment, etc.

I also agree that setting more realistic expectations would go a long way!! In the example of Armageddon after purchasing I got the typical email receipt which said "You will receive a email when the product ships along with a tracking #" Which I expected in the next day, or 2. If that first email simply said "Our normal shipping time is X days, and we guarantee it will ship within Y days" PROBLEM SOLVED! I am not expecting light speed shipping and they have kept their side of the street clean as well.

Why more companies choose not to do this is odd...bc you are right, complaints are both annoying and can hurt your business. Going back to my job, I spend the extra few minutes with my clients to go over a "What to expect next" checklist. I tell them step by step what will happen so there is NO stress they expect it all to happen and it makes them comfortable and makes me look professional. It's a win-win.

In the case of certain companies they make such great (popular) products that they could care less about providing top tier service. I will tell you this....I have had Verizon Wireless for 20yrs which is the most expensive service you can get, but when I have a problem they solve it. The same with Geico. Getting in a car accident SUCKS but they make it such a painless experience it is honestly worth the extra few dollars to me.

On the flip side, I shop with (personal) morality! I will NEVER buy another product from Nike, Disney. Balenciaga, Adidas, and a list of other "woke" companies. They will never see another dollar from me. If I feel slighted in any way by a company I just go elsewhere. I have been taught a few great lessons in my life, one being "Never be loyal to those who aren't loyal to you" If you treat me well and give me what I paid for (and possibly even say thank you) I will not only be your customer for life but I will tell others to support you. Why do you think people who buy guns from Ken Hicks are so loyal to him? He is smart and humble enough to hand write a little note to each of his customers which tells them 'I looked over this personally for you, bc I appreciate you and the money you spent' -

I enjoyed this back and fourth. Thanks for giving the point of view of a business owner. Excuse me...."Engineer" =)
 
I enjoyed this back and fourth. Thanks for giving the point of view of a business owner. Excuse me...."Engineer" =)

Anything but artist will do... lol Even businessman would work as I am familiar with the literature and practice of it.

I realize I'm getting a little nitpicky here, but I think there is a valuable distinction between manufacturers and companies that provide a service like Verizon and Geico. For service companies you are buying the ease of their service in most cases. The type of customer service they focus on is different than a durable goods manufacturer. Take a car, when you buy a car, do you mostly care about the salesmanship and the free oil changes or the quality/performance/durability of the car you purchasing? Armageddon is closer to the car manufacturer than a service company even if they overlap a little.

The pin factory
I agree, the division of labor is real and if implemented properly, it produces the best outcomes. Where I'm getting caught up is comparing apples to oranges. A distributor/online retailer focuses on different things than the manufacturers of the goods they sell. So comparing them isn't right.
The anger should then be directed to distributors/retailers. Why aren't they stocking the Shmedium bag? Why is it up to the manufacturer to be on top of everything? Division on labor after all would suggest that retailers should be picking up the slack in such a case.
Issue from my perspective is stores don't buy everything, I sometimes get told, "no we decided not to stock that item". So are they not doing their job?

Business theory and what one aught do is all very interesting and fun to think about. In reality one cannot always just hire or expand every facet of their operation to make the most seamless customer centric experience. The investment opportunities just are not there. You can more easily go to the bank and ask for 500k machine that acts as its own collateral. What do you think the bank's response to "can I have 200k to invest in shipping/sales/advertisement labor for my gun company?" You get laughed out of the building... VC's and other investment firms hardly touch hardware companies.
So when a businessman walks in and just says "why don't you do this and that", it's kind of like "ok that's obvious; but with what funds do you think you'll accomplish this with, let alone the funds to pay for you're own salary before you lift a finger?"

If I could quote my friend Boromir:

1677872735124.png



On a side note to keep this airgun related: the Shmedium bag is the best of it's class. I have a few myself and really dig the sticky one with heavy fill.
 
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That isn't being nitpicky at all actually I actually didn't consider that those companies are more in the "service" industry as opposed to goods and manufacturing. That is a very valid point. That kind of brings me back again to my original question though....do companies such as these set standards that are too high. Do you think many customers give it as much thought and discussion as we are right now? No they just want what they want when they want it lol They are not breaking down which are providing services and which are providing products? I think the average person looks at their purchases at simply that....purchases.

As far as needing money to grow a business, yea that is the struggle!! I know people who do digital marketing that were given 5-10% ownership equity in companies to handle their marketing bc the owner simply couldn't afford to pay someone to do. I am not recommending people give away equity, but 80% of a well marketed, well run company is better than 100% of a shi*ty company.


I got the Shmedium bag bc I plan to use it with a tac table off a tripod so it seemed like the right size. If I wanted a slightly bigger bag I was going to get the Black Branch Gekko II bc it is very sticky. I went with the Shmedium and got some Otter Wax to make it stickier and more waterproofed. I also got the black one, I am suprised to see that most people go with the brown or tan bags.
 
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That isn't being nitpicky at all actually I actually didn't consider that those companies are more in the "service" industry as opposed to goods and manufacturing. That is a very valid point. That kind of brings me back again to my original question though....do companies such as these set standards that are too high. Do you think many customers give it as much thought and discussion as we are right now? No they just want what they want when they want it lol They are not breaking down which are providing services and which are providing products? I think the average person looks at their purchases at simply that....purchases.
I don't think so either. And I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone overtly or unintentionally frustrating customers, BUT I think discussions like this are helpful to release some pressures and orient consumers expectations to a point that doesn't frustrate either party.
As far as needing money to grow a business, yea that is the struggle!! I know people who do digital marketing that were given 5-10% ownership equity in companies to handle their marketing bc the owner simply couldn't afford to pay someone to do. I am not recommending people give away equity, but 80% of a well marketed, well run company is better than 100% of a shi*ty company.
Marketing is definitely tricky and time consuming. Firstly the restrictions the platforms that matter put on companies like Armageddon or K&L due to the nature of the content is frustrating. In my instance, there are so many products and versions it makes it hard to cover it all. The nail in the coffin is the niche factor. I could not give our parts to even a fire arms content creator/marketer. They wouldn't understand the finer points or what is going on without some serious training/explanations.
The number of people with experience in marketing, portray the style we are looking for and have knowledge about an FX rifle are virtually 0 maybe 1. So there isn't even anyone to offer 50% to... lol

I got the Shmedium bag bc I plan to use it with a tac table off a tripod so it seemed like the right size. If I wanted a slightly bigger bag I was going to get the Black Branch Gekko II bc it is very sticky. I went with the Shmedium and got some Otter Wax to make it stickier and more waterproofed. I also got the black one, I am suprised to see that most people go with the brown or tan bags.
Brown/tan is optimal for camo purposes. The LARP is real; and badass lol
I believe they make some kind of sticky pad you can add to yours if you want more grip.
Looks like it has some kind of elastic band that keeps it in place.
 
The LARP is real lol It sure is. I'll get a brown bag and use while I'm wearing my air soft, tactical body armor =)
*for the record I am kidding!!! I want to throat punch those air soft guys who think they are SEALs lol

It kills me that youtube, google and FB (Big tech) have the power they do to crush any business they want. I understand SOME restrictions of youtube so people are being shown how to make firearms, switch them to automatic, etc. But to have a video demonetized for simply unscrewing a LEGAL silencer is bat sh*t crazy!! I actually didn't realize those restrictions also had to do with marketing. Gross.

And yes it is a very niche industry. That is good and bad. Good bc EVERY SINGLE air gunner knows your company and how good your products are. When air gunning blows up (and it will!!) you will be in a great position to grow with it. Look what happened to chess lately. One Netflix show (Queens Gambit) and a very public cheating scandal and the chess industry exploded!!!

I think the problem with air guns is people do not know they exist....and it is a rather expensive hobby. I was telling my brother about my Impact and he was like "OK relax you have a cool BB gun" I almost slapped him.
 
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