Like we need an excuse to shoot eh? I also enjoy testing for the best pellet... almost as much as tuning for best performance
Nice selection of ammo!
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Does pellet testing make sense?
- Thread starter Vana2
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Nice selection of ammo!
I do not have the selection that "Florida Man" has but I agree with his premise. I think it is important to test different pellets if you want the best accuracy your gun is capable of. I have tried before to make a gun like a particular pellet and it has never worked for me. In my experience you can make a pellet a little more accurate in your gun via a tune but if it isn't pretty accurate with a reasonable tune you start with then it is not going to be your best choice regardless of what you do. My largest experience with this was a cast pellet from a NOE mold. My Avenger and P35-25 both do not like this pellet much regardless of tune. I can cast them with more consistent weights than I find in my tins of JSB pellets and they look good but they just don't shoot. Others report great results in their guns which I can believe. I just wish I could try pellets from a mold before buying the mold.
As an example of why I think it's not a bad idea to keep testing is my P35-177. I shot a variety of JSB, Crosman, and H&N pellets in it. Probably some others I'm not remembering at the moment. I settled on H&H Baracuda Match pellets and shot a 194 on the 30 yard challenge with them last year. Then I noticed H&N Baracuda FT pellets and decided to try a tin. My best with the FTs is a 197. Not a huge improvement but an improvement over a pretty good pellet in this gun.
But it hasn't always worked out that way. My P35-22 put three pellets into exactly the same hole at 25 yards during preliminary pellet screening using H&N Baracuda Match pellets. Later it did exactly the same thing with the other head size of these pellets. I've tested others (including all the older weights of JSBs) and none shoot close to as well. I could have just quit with the initial screen and Match pellet selection. I've shot a 200 with this gun and pellet (using unsorted unwashed unlubed pellets straight from the tin through a Carm magazine), my only 200. I am not actively looking for a better pellet for this gun but if I try a new one in my Caiman X (also a 22) I usually test it in the P35-22 too.
I've head size and weight sorted pellets for the P35s I've mentioned above and recently did it for the Caiman X (best pellet so far is the H&N Baracuda 18). I think I found a weight, an uncommon weight, that the Caiman doesn't like as much but that is the only case where testing indicates the sorting may be worthwhile. I'm only shooting at 30 or occasionally 35 yards so I might have a different answer if I shot longer range. I still think sorting pellets occasionally can make sense if a pellet from a new tin doesn't perform like the previous tin. I found that on Crosman 10.5s. I had one tin shoot about at the same level as the H&N Match so I bought two more and they were much worse. I ordered a head size gauge and checked the new tins versus a few dozen I still had of the "old" tin. The old tin had consistent head sizes over a small range of sizes. The Crosman tins has pellets of every head size on my gauge. They were all over the place. I don't think the variety of head sizes was the issue, I think it is just a symptom that they were not well made pellets.
I've said it before and I will say it again here. I think that people who only shoot a particular brand of pellets (typically JSB) fail to get the best accuracy from at least some of their guns. They are the best in 2 of my 6 guns but the other 4 do not shoot them as well as H&Ns, You can make a gun a little more accurate with a tune it likes but you cannot make it like a pellet it doesn't care for. So you have to test at least until you get accuracy consistent with your goals for the gun.
As an example of why I think it's not a bad idea to keep testing is my P35-177. I shot a variety of JSB, Crosman, and H&N pellets in it. Probably some others I'm not remembering at the moment. I settled on H&H Baracuda Match pellets and shot a 194 on the 30 yard challenge with them last year. Then I noticed H&N Baracuda FT pellets and decided to try a tin. My best with the FTs is a 197. Not a huge improvement but an improvement over a pretty good pellet in this gun.
But it hasn't always worked out that way. My P35-22 put three pellets into exactly the same hole at 25 yards during preliminary pellet screening using H&N Baracuda Match pellets. Later it did exactly the same thing with the other head size of these pellets. I've tested others (including all the older weights of JSBs) and none shoot close to as well. I could have just quit with the initial screen and Match pellet selection. I've shot a 200 with this gun and pellet (using unsorted unwashed unlubed pellets straight from the tin through a Carm magazine), my only 200. I am not actively looking for a better pellet for this gun but if I try a new one in my Caiman X (also a 22) I usually test it in the P35-22 too.
I've head size and weight sorted pellets for the P35s I've mentioned above and recently did it for the Caiman X (best pellet so far is the H&N Baracuda 18). I think I found a weight, an uncommon weight, that the Caiman doesn't like as much but that is the only case where testing indicates the sorting may be worthwhile. I'm only shooting at 30 or occasionally 35 yards so I might have a different answer if I shot longer range. I still think sorting pellets occasionally can make sense if a pellet from a new tin doesn't perform like the previous tin. I found that on Crosman 10.5s. I had one tin shoot about at the same level as the H&N Match so I bought two more and they were much worse. I ordered a head size gauge and checked the new tins versus a few dozen I still had of the "old" tin. The old tin had consistent head sizes over a small range of sizes. The Crosman tins has pellets of every head size on my gauge. They were all over the place. I don't think the variety of head sizes was the issue, I think it is just a symptom that they were not well made pellets.
I've said it before and I will say it again here. I think that people who only shoot a particular brand of pellets (typically JSB) fail to get the best accuracy from at least some of their guns. They are the best in 2 of my 6 guns but the other 4 do not shoot them as well as H&Ns, You can make a gun a little more accurate with a tune it likes but you cannot make it like a pellet it doesn't care for. So you have to test at least until you get accuracy consistent with your goals for the gun.
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I just ask or read on comments what pellet works good in said gun ;that gives me something to check out for myself ,I have found out that said pellets work good in said airguns is a time saver,anytime I can save time I am all for it ,many example for certain popular springers and air pistols'
Like most of the air guns have the same velocity with given pellets,generally these named pellets work in this model air guns...This is a generalization ,now you can seek out maybe something better ,you look for the weight and size and go from there.Crazy in that I have found branded AA pellets work better than JSB pellets, even though both are suppose to be the same,,,,then we can go back years ago when certain dies were better than other dies for the same pellet....
oh Utube,is for me BS,,,unless I want to listen to some music in the end take it all with a grain of salt=a generalization from me .
Like most of the air guns have the same velocity with given pellets,generally these named pellets work in this model air guns...This is a generalization ,now you can seek out maybe something better ,you look for the weight and size and go from there.Crazy in that I have found branded AA pellets work better than JSB pellets, even though both are suppose to be the same,,,,then we can go back years ago when certain dies were better than other dies for the same pellet....
oh Utube,is for me BS,,,unless I want to listen to some music in the end take it all with a grain of salt=a generalization from me .
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just because it works in his barrel does not mean it will be best in your barrel . it might work ok and your getting 1.25 inch groups and you think well that is the best my gun shoots (bummer) . so you at a range and i have the same gun but i am shooting an 13,2 grain (same brand ) but the guy told you 10 .5 grain shoot the best . so i let you ty the 13.2's and holy crapNo, it doesn't make sense. That's why I come to the forum to see what works in my current pcp. Least that makes more sense to me. Or, I ask the previous owner.
1/2 inch groups the rest of the day shooting my pellets . this is why you try more pellets .
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I test different pellets in each gun individually and it’s often the case that a given pellet works great in one and fair to poor in another. Same problem in pb’s, a load that works well in a field rifle may be crap in a target rifle. I keep a record of what works where and buy pellets and other supplies to keep every gun supported.
Rick H.
Rick H.
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Testing is still useful as a starting point, even if results vary by gun. It saves some trial and error, especially with tunable guns. Each airgun is different, knowing which pellets others have had success with can help narrow down the options.
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Yeah, pellet testing could (possibly) save some time and provide a starting point by identifying particularly good or bad pellets.
I spot-check (sort 25 or so pellets) each tin just to confirm that the manufacturer still has their process under control. Some manufacturers are consistently good and some not.
I think that instead of testing pellets in some gun that it would be more useful if people would sort a tin and report what variance in weight and head-size the found.
Cheers!
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You're right; the airgun's quirks play a huge role. Testing pellets might not always show how they’ll perform in every setup.
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It is not a matter of a video, or a shooter/rifle. It is a long term process. Repeatability. There is error in every experiment. It is the cumulative data over times that matters to me. I find there are "good" and "bad" lots of pellets, like there is with rimfire. I have had a brand and type shoot well in one lot and not the next.
Does the combo duplicate over days (environmental conditions), batches/lots with a rifle and setting? The the combo duplicate performane across rifles that are similarly setup?
It is, for me, cumulative data that informs. Each "test" having relative value towards that data set.
Does the combo duplicate over days (environmental conditions), batches/lots with a rifle and setting? The the combo duplicate performane across rifles that are similarly setup?
It is, for me, cumulative data that informs. Each "test" having relative value towards that data set.
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The only pellets i gave up testing /sorting were the Eley Tenex as the variation was negatable . Size was consistent and weight was all within . 02 grain's .
Unfortunately , i cannot find any more to buy in the USA , everyone that advertises say out of stock and even the USA Importer is listed out of stock .
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I've found (through firing a lot of shots) that weight makes MUCH more difference in accuracy than brand. A pellet in the appropriate weight range will always shoot well. To heavy or too light and things open up.
Sure there are differences in quality, consistency etc. And shooting for groups the details matter more. But when testing pellets in a particular air rifle weight range is what you are trying to establish.
Yes there are tiny differences in pattern size between brands. Yes one head size may shoot better. For target shooters that are focused on CTC spread this makes a difference. For the rest of us it simply does not.
In my rifles anything between 14 and 16 grs. In weight shoot well. A 3/4" hole at 25 yds with very few outside that pattern. Some pellet brands will reduce that hole to 1/2". Some brands or lots have more "fliers" than others. Conversely pellets that hold a bit wider pattern at 25 are often a bit tighter at longer ranges.
Does this matter to me? No. I'm not shooting competition nor trying to wring top accuracy out of my rifle. Fretting over sorting and sizing to shave off a few thousandths in group size is unimportant to me.
When a guy buys a new air rifle and is told to "try different pellets to see which one your gun likes" it's much more about weight range than brand. Once that is established the groups are pretty small. From there on out it takes hundreds of comparative shots to really see which pellets are "better". The reduction in group size is often less than shooter error and changes in the equipment from day to day.
I'm not bashing guys who get fussy over pellets trying to shoot the smallest pattern. That's all a part of your game. But when a guy "tests pellets" in a new rifle he isn't looking for a particular brand that shoots well. He's looking for WEIGHT RANGES that shoot well. From there he can further test between brands, head sizes, skirt thickness, weight consistency etc... if that's important to meet his goals.
In my experience for my purposes there isn't a nickels worth of difference between (most of) them. Sure an H&N pellet will shoot "better" than a Crosman on paper. And if that's important to the shooter then groovy. But weight range is much more critical to a springer than differences in brand or variations in head size. And determining the actual difference in pellets will take MUCH more shooting and experimentation than simply shooting one against the other and measuring the pattern.
A reloader will shoot hundreds of shots in comparative testing to determine the best bullet for accuracy. Hundreds more to determine the best seating depth. Hundreds more adjusting neck tension and shoulder fit. Simple comparative targets simply don't tell you much unless you repeat the tests MANY times in several sessions with all other variables eliminated. It's no different testing airgun ammo in that respect.
After many thousands of shots and a hundreds of test targets I still can't tell you what pellet my air rifles "like best". The jury is still out on that. It has revealed that the weight range of the projectile is much more important than brand. And that some brands may have more "fliers". Digging deeper than that will take more comparative testing than most shooters are willing to do. Certainly more than I'm willing to do.
Sure there are differences in quality, consistency etc. And shooting for groups the details matter more. But when testing pellets in a particular air rifle weight range is what you are trying to establish.
Yes there are tiny differences in pattern size between brands. Yes one head size may shoot better. For target shooters that are focused on CTC spread this makes a difference. For the rest of us it simply does not.
In my rifles anything between 14 and 16 grs. In weight shoot well. A 3/4" hole at 25 yds with very few outside that pattern. Some pellet brands will reduce that hole to 1/2". Some brands or lots have more "fliers" than others. Conversely pellets that hold a bit wider pattern at 25 are often a bit tighter at longer ranges.
Does this matter to me? No. I'm not shooting competition nor trying to wring top accuracy out of my rifle. Fretting over sorting and sizing to shave off a few thousandths in group size is unimportant to me.
When a guy buys a new air rifle and is told to "try different pellets to see which one your gun likes" it's much more about weight range than brand. Once that is established the groups are pretty small. From there on out it takes hundreds of comparative shots to really see which pellets are "better". The reduction in group size is often less than shooter error and changes in the equipment from day to day.
I'm not bashing guys who get fussy over pellets trying to shoot the smallest pattern. That's all a part of your game. But when a guy "tests pellets" in a new rifle he isn't looking for a particular brand that shoots well. He's looking for WEIGHT RANGES that shoot well. From there he can further test between brands, head sizes, skirt thickness, weight consistency etc... if that's important to meet his goals.
In my experience for my purposes there isn't a nickels worth of difference between (most of) them. Sure an H&N pellet will shoot "better" than a Crosman on paper. And if that's important to the shooter then groovy. But weight range is much more critical to a springer than differences in brand or variations in head size. And determining the actual difference in pellets will take MUCH more shooting and experimentation than simply shooting one against the other and measuring the pattern.
A reloader will shoot hundreds of shots in comparative testing to determine the best bullet for accuracy. Hundreds more to determine the best seating depth. Hundreds more adjusting neck tension and shoulder fit. Simple comparative targets simply don't tell you much unless you repeat the tests MANY times in several sessions with all other variables eliminated. It's no different testing airgun ammo in that respect.
After many thousands of shots and a hundreds of test targets I still can't tell you what pellet my air rifles "like best". The jury is still out on that. It has revealed that the weight range of the projectile is much more important than brand. And that some brands may have more "fliers". Digging deeper than that will take more comparative testing than most shooters are willing to do. Certainly more than I'm willing to do.
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small variations or no variations on paper is my thing so
, nicely written post , thankyou Stan in KY
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Thanks for that detailed comment!
Us old guys are probably stuck in our ways but definitely a good read for the newbies who maybe a bit overwhelmed by all the fuss about pellets.
I agree with what you said and it seems that we have a similar perspective.
Back in the day (sorry about the old guy expression
) I fed my springers whatever .177 caliber pellet was available and the "best one" was the one that was cheapest. Weights weren't printed on the tin/box - not that it mattered - because all pellets were indiscriminately mixed in the pocket anyway. Springers were thought to have 15 yard minute-of-a-tin-can at best. Relative to slingshots, springers were amazingly accurate and it never occurred to me that pellets made a difference. We know better now eh? Guess that the pendulum has swung to the opposite extreme where I sort pellets for special situations like hunting, tuning and target shooting.That being said, I'm a plinker at heart and will admit to that most of my shooting is done with unsorted pellets straight from the tin.
I have some very accurate airguns and get into "precise mode" occasionally but most of the time it's casual shooting with modest airguns.
The whole purpose to my post was to question the credibility of "testing" pellets and get people commenting on the subject. Hope it's helped the people who were looking for magic pellets.
Cheers!
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small variations or no variations on paper is my thing so
Stan in KY
In the pursuit of accuracy many are focused on the rifle and the ammunition. That is a respectable game.
Others in that pursuit focus on channeling the rifleman within. The potential accuracy of their equipment does not really matter past a certain point.
I think the disciplines follow a common path up to a point. One compliments the other nicely. There is a lot to be learned between them.
I have learned more as a rifleman from a gun that shot poorly. You try harder, shoot better and learn more from your misses.
A crappy rifle just needs a bigger target. I'll shoot anything and learn from it. A tack driver thrills me. But I get a kick out of a wild one too.
It's easy to make a gun more accurate than the shooter. Much more difficult for the rifleman to shoot to the potential of the rifle.
I suppose we are both chasing accuracy on our different paths. We just work at opposite ends of the shooting continuum. Yours is more focused on rifle accuracy and mine hold and trigger timing. I can't get enough practice and your pellets can't get uniform enough. And we both are just a fraction away from where we want to be no matter how close we are shooting.
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Well I agree with Bob to a point. When I get a new gun I shoot various weights of pellets through it to see which go 800-900 fps. On my Prod the practicle answer was 0 so I just kept them fairly light and tested to see which is more accurate. On my P35-177 and Caiman X I discovered quickly that it could launch light weight pellets faster than I want to shoot them, well over 900 fps, so I shot fairly heavy for caliber pellets and both are accurate with them. If I wanted to shoot lighter I would need to turn down the regulator. But I disagree with Bob relative to what I think as his assertion that pellets of equal or similar weight all shoot the same. I do not find this to be true. My Caiman X does not shoot JSB 18.1s nearly as well as it shoots H&N 18.1s. The H&N are smaller head size and may be a different lead alloy. JTS 18.1s also shot worse than H&Ns. I see the same thing in my P35-25 with JSB 33.95 grain pellets. MK IIs shoot noticably better than MK 1s. No alloy difference but there is some shape difference. I start by shooting to see how fast they go and then test further once I decide what weight range is appropriate. If they like a lighter or heavier pellet than what I want to shoot I would change the regulator and then test. I could use any 18.1s in my Caiman to shoot a squirrel in the head at reasonable range but to get the best 30 yard challenge score I only want H&Ns.
I logged in to say that I no longer think I need to sort H&N Baracuda 18s for my Caiman to get the best scores with it. I shot a whole 30 yard challenge target with it with the 18.3s I was worried about and the last 10 shots were all 10s. That's the short story but there is a thread in the projectile tab where I posted todays target and a long explanation.
I logged in to say that I no longer think I need to sort H&N Baracuda 18s for my Caiman to get the best scores with it. I shot a whole 30 yard challenge target with it with the 18.3s I was worried about and the last 10 shots were all 10s. That's the short story but there is a thread in the projectile tab where I posted todays target and a long explanation.
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I do not find pellets of the same weight necessarily shoot the same. H&N and my AA rarely shoot the same in similar weights. The composition of the pellets make a difference it seems. Head size seems to play a bit of a role for me, but weight sorting with my TX200 to within 0.10 grain made a bigger difference. Sometimes using bees wax as a lubricant has helped as well.
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A PCP is a completely different animal.
I don't shoot a PCP so all my comments are based on experience with a springer. The ability to tune the gun to a pellet and push them faster changes the entire ball game. For you guys there is no doubt the projectile matters.
Extensive pellet testing and tuning is probably a worthwhile effort.
Once again if you are shooting patterns on paper there may be differences in the brand or head size. Those differences may mean a lot to some shooters. The farther out you shoot the more difference it makes. At PCP ranges and speeds it probably makes a bunch of difference.
For the average Joe with a springer the differences can become fairly insignificant. Other factors like price and availability are a whole lot more important than the difference in group size shooting a specific pellet.
Extensive pellet testing may not make sense in that case.
In my springers as long as the weight is about right most of them shoot good enough. A few shoot a little better.
If I'm shooting shotgun shells at 80 yards off a rest with a scoped rifle pellets make a difference. I shoot the stuff that seems to pattern better on paper. If I'm shooting them offhand with iron sights at 35 I'm plopping crosmans in the dirt.
When a miss once in a while dosent matter the best pellet for your rifle may not be the one that shoots the tiniest pattern.
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The first two years with airguns costed me all legs and arms and a left kidney not to mention the liver. I had about that volume of selection what Florida Man show in pictures earlier or maybe even more.
It toke me about next two years to plink away like a drunken soldier, what pellets and amo I will never use again.
Last two years I keep a single pellet in .25 and 3 pellets in .22 for all my ring games @ 50 and @ 100. I am glad I gave up on slugs very early after couple months of hair ripping.
I was watching here and there couple threads about new pellet designed and new sources...........sorry guys, I don't trust anything new that is just a cloning of existing...same with slugs.
Also... No pellet or slug dies for me. Placebo only in my eyes.
It toke me about next two years to plink away like a drunken soldier, what pellets and amo I will never use again.
Last two years I keep a single pellet in .25 and 3 pellets in .22 for all my ring games @ 50 and @ 100. I am glad I gave up on slugs very early after couple months of hair ripping.
I was watching here and there couple threads about new pellet designed and new sources...........sorry guys, I don't trust anything new that is just a cloning of existing...same with slugs.
Also... No pellet or slug dies for me. Placebo only in my eyes.
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