DOT aproved, extended life carbon fiber tanks. Big savings over a new tank!

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stoti

stoti

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Apr 6, 2018
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Beautiful, Conservative, Potter Valley, Nor Cal.
I've been weighing my options for filling air guns. I'm tired of using a 3000psi scuba tank and hand pump. I've been considering a Carbon fiber tank, Nitrogen rental, compressor or something else? However, the other day I got an e-mail from Pyramyd air making me aware of DOT approved, extended life carbon fiber tanks being sold for a huge discount compared to a brand new tank. I just purchased a 88cu. ft. tank with valve and micro bore hose, ready to go for $424 and it also included free shipping. This size tank is usually more than $600! If you've been considering a carbon tank, you should check these out. I copied part of the description from Pyramyd and posted it below, but if you go to Pyramyd's website there is a lot more information and a video explaining how and why this process got started to save the government a ton of money on expired tanks. Kevin


Recent DOT regulation (SP-16320) changes have led to some amazing developments for air gunners! Life Extended tanks may be used up to an additional 15 years from their born on date. For example, a tank manufactured in the year 1998, would have previously expired in 2013. Now, this tank may be usable until 2028 once Life Extended! If the cost of a brand new carbon fiber air cylinder has kept you from getting into PCP air guns, a Life Extended cylinder may be the answer! These carbon fiber cylinders are lightweight and capable of storing up to 4500 psi of high pressure air. Potentially providing thousands of shots for your PCP air guns! Of course, just like brand new carbon fiber SCBA cylinders, they must pass testing every 5 years from the Life Extension date to remain in service (Ex. A tank Life Extended in 2017, wouldn’t require a retest until 2022). This testing can be done by Digital Wave Corporation for Life Extended tanks and will cost about the same as a standard hydro test plus shipping and handling.These cylinders come with a brand new 300 BAR DIN valve and fill assembly that ends in a female quick disconnect fitting, ready to fill your PCP airguns. The valve and fill assembly feature stainless steel fittings, a 24 in. microbore hose and a rubberized hand wheel for controlled filling. The integrated pressure gauge lets you know when you're reaching your full charge, and the bleed valve is conveniently located on the valve.
 
Check the prices carefully. I did an "Annual Cost" analysis.

new tanks come to about $40 per year plus the 5 year hydro.
Extended life tanks come to about $40 per year, plus the 5 year resting that can only be done by the company that extended the life. The overall cost of extended life tanks will be a bit higher than new tanks on an annualized basis.

 
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"blackdiesel"I never worried about that 15 year life of tanks anyway. It was a rule to remove tanks from firefighter and emergency service after a time and didn't represent the real life of a CF tank.
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blackdiesel, if I may share another thought on this idea.

Yes I will agree there is a safety margin built into these tanks, but do we as consumers really know the limits? Nope and anyone who says otherwise is just guessing or using a very small selective data samples to apply to all tanks. This is like saying all vehicle tires of a particular brand and model will last and wear the same. Yet we see blow outs, premature failures etc. While some will get even better performance than advertised. Same thing with these tanks.

The DOT requirement was not just written for firefighters and emergency services. The DOT can not determine who will own (not yet anyway) or what a CF tank will be used for, so this is a very broad generalization to think it would only apply to them.

The Manufactures are granted a specific Special Permit by the DOT in the US, to build their specific tank. It cost money to manufacture, test and build these tanks and they are in the business to make money, just like any other company. Yet they know they are building a product that is designed to contain high pressure gas and can be very dangerous to be around. These companies don't want law suites for failed or exploding tanks so they try to minimize the risk while maximizing profits. The good ole American way!

So lets think about this for a minute, the DOT says that the tank has to be removed from service after 15 years, meanwhile it must be hydro and inspected (exterior and interior) every 5 years and pass, to continue to be used. Why would the company that builds the tank, spend anymore money on the process to build this tank than is necessary? Just ask yourself, do you really think some company is going to spend more money and resources than they have to so that you can be safe breaking the rules? Lets not confuse safety factors with design life cycle, is your tank going to blow just because you go past your last hydro date and use the tank for 15 years and one day? No, it probably won't. Yet some tanks actually fail within their first 5 years of service. Matter of fact I think some of the guys here have experienced that with their new tanks. But let me ask you this, you know from experience that your trigger safety on your gun works and is reliable right? Would you point your gun at your child? Would you pull the trigger knowing the safety will work? I know this is an extreme and I don't want to offend anyone but why do we always think there is a conspiracy theory surrounding these tanks and that they are made to last forever? (See below for more details of the 5 year inspection of CF tanks.)

So let me ask you this and I mean to ask all of us as airgunners to ask ourselves, who are we to say any different? Why would you want to take any unnecessary risk to yourself, your friends or your family?


Now I can tell you that as a long time user of High Pressure Gas cylinders, that there are factors that can effect each and every tank separately and individually. Not just in handling of the tanks, bumps and scrapes and dings, but the introduction of compressed gasses as well as foreign fluids. Let me just say not all compressors are made equal and produce the same quality of air, which is self evident by all the types and styles of compressors used within our group right here. When gas is compressed, moisture as well as other gasses in the air are introduced to the interior of a tank. Without getting into a lot of detail lets just assume it is water vapor and oil, since these are the most prevalent to any air compressor. Over time, these "additives" can become acidic in nature as well as just corrosive due to the moisture. So the DOT knows this, therefore they along with the manufactures subscribe to the 5 year (typical) inspection phase of the lifetime cycle of CF tanks. This inspection period is to provide for a visual inspection of the exterior as well as the interior of the tank. (we use special lights and mirrors to perform this visual inspection) checking for signs of corrosion or internal damage as well as stress cracks on the interior.

Now let me point out another little known fact about Hydros, and Extended Life MAE testing. When you have your tank tested/inspected this is also an opportunity that we as consumers can also find out if our tanks have been recalled or other limitations of use have been placed on the SP number sometime after the initial manufacture date. I can personally attest to this fact as I have had a High Pressure cylinder removed from service simply due to a defect found in the manufacturing process that was deemed to make all the tanks of that SP number unsafe for continued service. Let me tell you that tank looks great, does not look any different than any of my other tanks, yet there is a microscopic flaw in the metal that has proved to be unsafe for continued use.

So if you take anything away from this "rant" I hope that it would be, don't fall for the conspiracy theories that there are political reasons for requiring we continue to get our tanks tested. Testing every 5 years, whether it is hydro static testing or MAE Life extension under the new SP number, it is there for a very good reason. To keep you and me and our families and friends safe. Things can happen inside your tank that you will never be aware of until it is too late. With this 5 year cycle, we can at least give ourselves the chance to catch it before something really sad happens. Whats a few bucks to be safe really worth? Please don't hate the messenger. Happy safe shooting guys and peace to you all. This is a great sport with great people and hope I did not offend anyone.
 
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"Saltlake58"Check the prices carefully. I did an "Annual Cost" analysis.
new tanks come to about $40 per year plus the 5 year hydro.
Extended life tanks come to about $40 per year, plus the 5 year resting that can only be done by the company that extended the life. The overall cost of extended life tanks will be a bit higher than new tanks on an annualized basis.
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Hmm... that doesn't quite seem right. If you buy a new tank, it should be good for 30 years with the same life extension test done in 15 years. Assume interest rate of 0. Someone said hydro and recert at Digital Wave was priced similarly (~$40), then you are comparing price of your new tank + MAE test vs 2 * used tanks. Airhog has a 88 cuft for $635 (ready to go, I think), and @centercut said the MAE Test was $300 vs PA currently offers a 13 year life extended tank in 88 cuft for $484 so $935 for new vs $968 for used and you are 4 years short. Over 30 years, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot, but personally I would not pay a premium for used (i.e. life extended tanks). One other thing, looking 15 to 30 years out means you probably want to weight Digital Wave discontinuing the mae and recert tests, or more positive that is a success and prices come down possible with other vendors offering similar service.
 
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"blackdiesel"FunGun all you have to do is check firefighters, emergency service and airgunners outside the US. Have you heard of a CF tank failing in normal use? The only time I have ever heard of one failing is under a control procedure where the upper limits of the tank is tested.
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As I mentioned in my thread, we have had some "bad" new CF tanks mentioned on this forum in the past. You are correct though we don't hear much about CF tank failures because the tanks that are subject to failure are usually found during the 5 year hydro static testing and visual inspection schedule. 

Your not going to hear about these tanks failing the hydro test, they are going to be destroyed and removed from the CF population. Simple as that. I know of two hydro facilities in my area and they both have told me of tanks that have failed during the hydro testing. They are required to drill the tank and then inform the owner of the failure.

Personally I have seen the damage and the loss of life due to High Pressure tanks exploding while being filled. (SCUBA tanks) 

Now with that said, it was not here in the USA. One was in Mexico, and that tank had not been hydro statically tested per schedule testing and was determined to have internal corrosion that weakened the cylinder wall. (The water infiltration is usually due to the compressor, not from being submersed in water.) The second HP tank explosion that I know of was in Belize if memory serves, it too was not in a scheduled inspections program. You don't hear about it here in the US, because we follow standard inspection schedules and those tanks that show signs of internal corrosion or weakened walls are simply removed from the population. In full disclosure these tanks that exploded carried lifetime DOT certifications and were only required to be Hydro static tested every 5 years and inspected internally annually. They were Aluminum 3000psi scuba tanks. 

Now back to CF tanks. 
Let me point out that the tanks in the US are certified to DOT specifications. The tanks in Canada are certified to TC specifications. The tanks in Europe are certified to CE certifications. These tanks are not the same. (Some tanks do carry DOT/TC combined so that tanks can pass from the US to Canada) There is a tank certification that was granted to Luxfer that is a true 30 year tank. It will be much heavier and thicker material and will be stamped with DOT-SP 14232. This tank is part of their LCX-EL family of cylinders. It is also required to be re-qualified every 5 years. To date none of these tanks have been re-qualified beyond 15 years since the SP is not that old yet.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming what you "hear" on the internet about our US DOT tanks are the same as some other tank in Europe that are claimed to be used for 30 years. It's just not true as a general statement.

If anyone has "Documentation" that says otherwise, I would really appreciate you sharing it. What you do, and your personal choices about getting your tanks re-qaulified is your business and I would never think to say otherwise. I just don't want to see information being shared that is not backed by fact and documentation, when others come here to find fact. Given the facts, everyone can then make their own personal decisions. Hope this helps. 

Just so you know I have held a couple different certifications/licenses in the HP Gas Industry and related industries over the years, so I do have some first hand experience with the subject.
 
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Most tanks in the US are made by either Luxfer and Structural Composites Industries (SCI) and commissioned by the name brands you see. The tanks commissioned by companies like Scott, Survivair and others that are used for firefighting and emergency response are held to very high specifications. Civilian companies must meet standards of the National Fire Protection which are stricter than DOT. Military and Federal Government agencies must meet OSHA standards, which again, are stricter than DOT. So I feel comfortable getting tanks that met these standards because they are far and above more stringent than anything airgunners will ever subject them to.
 
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"blackdiesel"Most tanks in the US are made by either Luxfer and Structural Composites Industries (SCI) and commissioned by the name brands you see. The tanks commissioned by companies like Scott, Survivair and others that are used for firefighting and emergency response are held to very high specifications. Civilian companies must meet standards of the National Fire Protection which are stricter than DOT. Military and Federal Government agencies must meet OSHA standards, which again, are stricter than DOT. So I feel comfortable getting tanks that met these standards because they are far and above more stringent than anything airgunners will ever subject them to.
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And yet all the tanks in the US are required to have the same inspection and re-certification requirements. To your point about what we airgunners might subject a tank to, I would actually point out, most of the CF tanks you mention above are used for breathing air. Most breathing air compressors are producing GRADE D and GRADE E quality air. Unless you have an approved qualified filtration system on your compressor and have your air quality tested you can not be sure you are not putting MOISTURE inside your tank every time you fill it. So YES, we airgunners might actually be putting our CF tanks through more abuse than say firefighters or emergency responders. MOISTURE is your tanks worst enemy. Granted we are not taking our tanks into burning buildings (unlike Ted) (or burnt buildings in his case), we are still possibly taking risks with our compressors filling these tanks. Just so you know, the Grade D and E air is about 2% to 4% humidity, thus removing most of the moisture from the compressed air. (not to mention the impurities). 

IT's simple, get your tanks certified and tested and we all can enjoy this sport and keep it safe. Bless you all and happy shooting.
 
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"allan_wind"
"Saltlake58"Check the prices carefully. I did an "Annual Cost" analysis.
new tanks come to about $40 per year plus the 5 year hydro.
Extended life tanks come to about $40 per year, plus the 5 year resting that can only be done by the company that extended the life. The overall cost of extended life tanks will be a bit higher than new tanks on an annualized basis.
Click to expand...
Hmm... that doesn't quite seem right. If you buy a new tank, it should be good for 30 years with the same life extension test done in 15 years. Assume interest rate of 0. Someone said hydro and recert at Digital Wave was priced similarly (~$40), then you are comparing price of your new tank + MAE test vs 2 * used tanks. Airhog has a 88 cuft for $635 (ready to go, I think), and @centercut said the MAE Test was $300 vs PA currently offers a 13 year life extended tank in 88 cuft for $484 so $935 for new vs $968 for used and you are 4 years short. Over 30 years, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot, but personally I would not pay a premium for used (i.e. life extended tanks). One other thing, looking 15 to 30 years out means you probably want to weight Digital Wave discontinuing the mae and recert tests, or more positive that is a success and prices come down possible with other vendors offering similar service.
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I think the math either way comes to the same conclusion - Recertified Tanks are not really saving any money. My assumptions were just a little different.

So, PA has a MAE Recertified tank - 88CF tank with 9 years left for $424, not including MAE fees for the 5 year recert, that's $47 per year cost
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_LE_Carbon_Fiber_Air_Tank_4500_PSI_88_Cu_Ft_DOM_1998/7992

PA has a new 98CF tank with 15 years left for $699, or about $47 per year, not including the 5 year hydro tests.
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_Carbon_Fiber_Charging_Station_4500_psi_98_cu_ft/5905

Now, think same new tank with a 30 year life and the year over year costs is about $23.50 per year, not including 5 year tests.

Extending the life is great, but, if it costs the same as a new tank, and has 15 years wear and tear and you don't know how many fires it's been through, maybe, maybe a new tank is a better deal??




 
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I brought this up because I for one would rather shell out $400 than $699 for the initial cost. In 5 years who knows what's going to be happening or might have changed. The recertification is supposed to be the cost of a hydro plus shipping...no big deal. The prohibitive cost for most isn't the shipping or hydro cost, it's the initial $699 cost. Didn't mean to make everyone so upset. Just pointing out an option for some who like me, don't want to shell out $699. Stoti
 
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Stoti - 
You did hit the one advantage of a recertified tank, the lower initial cost. Each of us has a different opinion of what's most important. For some, lower initial cost, for others, cost over the lifetime of the product. All good conversation - helps us make decisions based on whatever our important stuff is.

I do appreciate you bringing it up, made me think.
 
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Just like all the new pre-charged stuff, regulators, lower cost everything in airguns these days, it is great to have options!
And they are ALL good!
Just for me well I have an scba tank, purchased used but from a dealer as I, will not be alive in 15 years and wanted to purchase from a know airgun dealer while saving some money. 
Some people want/need to save money ( today not in the long run) and go for the lowest price on ebay or even purchase out of date scba's.
Some people actually like spending more - okay I cant ever find one of them when selling anything but...- or would pay anything for a certain color tank.
I really think the wave folks and PA make a great team for many of us. Many new shooters esp. new ones have no idea if they will still be into airguns in 6 months or eight years,
want to keep the cost down a bit but want to purchase only from a dealer and maybe even one stop shopping.
Now if you a stone cold airgun freak, have 5 or 6 88cf tanks , have been into it for years, own a large compressor et al. this partnership digitalwave came up with is not for you.
For new people buying blind off Internet knowledge at best ( and DO figure in the cost of the included fill adaptor only a newbie needs) these do seems a reliable viable , somewhat of a , deal.

Now just from my view point, and I know nothing, Digiwave saw a Market to be had and moved on it. They know who uses these tanks for what when and how. They have made HUGE advances in their business model in a VERY short amount of time, and, they have plans to keep grabing market. They are evaluating re-certs/hydros and other very rapidly. Tak a peek at their page. I just have a feeling they will pretty much own the used in hydro scba market very very soon. Except for those of us who will gamble on a sight unseen ebay tank.

John
 
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I am on the fence weather a shoe box and a tank or wait for the NOMAD. You get a new tank and you fill it your self then I personally would not get it recertified if the tank is taken care of and protected you know if you dropped it or threw it around basically abused it. If the testing is as cables and other equipment is checked way beyond there capacity sometimes triple there max capacity before they fail. When they hydro what pressure do they go up to?
 
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