EBR Target Challenge

[thomasair]

Igolf...I sink just like everyone. Thanks though.

Shot these after dinner. 3-7 from the south. Probably my least favorite condition since my range faces south. Couldn’t seem to pick the right side with any regularity.

Mike...I feel mostly helpless without flags. I surely cannot picture shooting BR without them.

Same 22 RD monsters 

Mike

 

[tommyb]

Igolf...I sink just like everyone. Thanks though.

Shot these after dinner. 3-7 from the south. Probably my least favorite condition since my range faces south. Couldn’t seem to pick the right side with any regularity.

Mike...I feel mostly helpless without flags. I surely cannot picture shooting BR without them.

Same 22 RD monsters 

Mike


Mike, if you call shooting a 232 “sinking like everyone,” I’ll take that score every day and twice on Saturday. This coming from someone who has not shot higher than 217 ever. I’m teasing you and having some fun, but for anyone relatively new at this, I can only dream of shooting like that. Lot of practice and skill to achieve as I’m finding out.

 

[thomasair]

Hi Tommy,

This is just something to think about. I’m only telling what I personally do.

I test guns at 25m before I even think about shooting 50 or 100. If I cannot get 25 shot indoor groups with a ctc of .100” or less....I have more work to do. Most times I get much less than .100”. If your 25 shot groups are poor....they will only get much worse at 100y.


I have probably shot 50 cards at 100y in the past month or so. Of the 50....I’m guessing around 30-35 of those have been 230+. I know I had a run of 16 in a row that were 230+. If my gun was shooting 50% larger groups at 25m....I could expect 50% larger groups at 100 or more. That would make getting a 230+ tremendously more difficult if not impossible.


No matter what your skill level is....you cannot overcome a gun that does not shoot where you expect it to shoot. A great shooter may be able to do a little better....but he will never be able to predict the random pattern at 100y. Even if he got his wind calls 100% correct every time.

Test your gun at 25...even if you think it’s boring. You will learn a lot about what your expectations should be for 100.


Here is a 25 shot group with RD monsters at 25m indoors. I do not sort pellets in any way. 


Mike 

 

[igolfat8]

Mike (Thomas),

When time permits would you post a picture of your rifle and BR setup? Just curious to see what exactly you are shooting.

Thanks.

 

[igolfat8]

Mike (Center Cut), 

Is there a way to print your targets without the yellow bands? If so, I’d like to save some ink and just print black and white targets.

Thanks...

 

[thomasair]

It’s like this.


You can set your printer on grayscale.

Mike

 

[tommyb]

Hi Tommy,

This is just something to think about. I’m only telling what I personally do.

I test guns at 25m before I even think about shooting 50 or 100. If I cannot get 25 shot indoor groups with a ctc of .100” or less....I have more work to do. Most times I get much less than .100”. If your 25 shot groups are poor....they will only get much worse at 100y.


I have probably shot 50 cards at 100y in the past month or so. Of the 50....I’m guessing around 30-35 of those have been 230+. I know I had a run of 16 in a row that were 230+. If my gun was shooting 50% larger groups at 25m....I could expect 50% larger groups at 100 or more. That would make getting a 230+ tremendously more difficult if not impossible.


No matter what your skill level is....you cannot overcome a gun that does not shoot where you expect it to shoot. A great shooter may be able to do a little better....but he will never be able to predict the random pattern at 100y. Even if he got his wind calls 100% correct every time.

Test your gun at 25...even if you think it’s boring. You will learn a lot about what your expectations should be for 100.


Here is a 25 shot group with RD monsters at 25m indoors. I do not sort pellets in any way. 


Mike

Just saw this now Mike. Your timing and suggestion is good because I have a local shooting buddy that gave me this same exact advice based on my accuracy concerns. 

Last week I shot groups at 25 and 50 yards and the net of it is, my RW Safari .25 has an accuracy issue. Talked with AoA and they have been great and will sort me out, Very helpful and supportive!

I was a bit suspicious of the gun or barrel, so I shot a bunch of groups at 25 and 50. A ragged hole ( but not .100) at 25 and only .85 “ CTC at 50 yards. The gun can and should shoot better I am sure.

Thanks to both Mike B and Mike N for the information and extremely helpful advice!

Tom

 

[thomasair]

Shot these in pretty ugly wind. Was 14-20+ on the first one and then it slowed down to 12 or so and was far less gusty. I used 2 flags and 1 windicator. I shot both cards heads up...meaning I set the gun poa for the condition I wanted, then took my eye out of the scope so I could watch the flags with both eyes. When the flags lined up the way I wanted I squeezed the trigger. I shot all my sighters up front and once I started the card I never shot any more. The 6 on the second card was my first shot...that’s a really depressing start. Haha I had just finished my sighters and filled the gun to begin since I only had 2800 psi in my air tank.

Mike

 

[tommyb]

Shot these in pretty ugly wind. Was 14-20+ on the first one and then it slowed down to 12 or so and was far less gusty. I used 2 flags and 1 windicator. I shot both cards heads up...meaning I set the gun poa for the condition I wanted, then took my eye out of the scope so I could watch the flags with both eyes. When the flags lined up the way I wanted I squeezed the trigger. I shot all my sighters up front and once I started the card I never shot any more. The 6 on the second card was my first shot...that’s a really depressing start. Haha I had just finished my sighters and filled the gun to begin since I only had 2800 psi in my air tank.

Mike

Mike N and Mike B - pretty accurate shooting in your respective wind conditions! Nice shooting. 

Today I brought my Anschutz 64 MPR .22 LR to my local outdoor range. I needed a confidence boost for my ego and shot a 235/6X EBR Target card. Also shot a 229, 226 and a 219 on subsequent cards; all of these at 100Y from the bench and each card testing different ammo. ( pics available but I did not include as I know this is an airgun EBR Target challenge). Wind was variable at 3-5, gusts to 10 mph. 

I wanted to prove to myself that I could shoot something higher than a “217” card. I did, but I have not done this yet with either of my two airguns; the RAW or RW. From my vantage point, there is considerable skill and not too much luck involved in shooting some really good scores with air guns at 100 yards, even if you have a great gun. I’m pretty sure most of the folks on this thread could equal or better my shooting with the Anschutz. The gun and barrel is very accurate, so if you do your part it won’t let you down. Compared to my air guns, the Anschutz is just so reliable and dependable. Not being critical, just stating my experience with the different platforms.

However, there are so many variables that are more challenging shooting an airgun consistently and accurately for 100 yard BR, and this is what I enjoy about the hobby. I.e., having a capable gun, great barrel, shooting technique, learning various holds, breathing, using lighter triggers, knowing your sweet spots with your air fills, tuning performance, and most importantly - reading the wind. Knowing when to move from your sighters to your real targets. The list seems endless and it’s one thing to have solid and capable 100 y guns and use wind flags, but you have to know how to read and adjust. Therein lies the challenge and the devil here is truly in the detail.

So for all those that consistently post in the 220’s, 230’s and mind boggling 240 range - It’s not luck from where I sit. There is a tremendous amount of skill, practice and experience behind those scores. 

This is a great thread and I’m learning a Sh&T-ton of invaluable information. 

 

[igolfat8]

Mike T,

Are you lubing your pellets and if so with what? You had mentioned earlier shooting straight from the tin. The last cards you posted above appear to have black rings around the holes which is indicative of lead and lube. Just curious if you are adding any additional slippery stuff to the tins? Thanks again for sharing with us.





TommyB,

I hear your frustration and I too share it with you. I can out shoot my air rifle groups with my stock el-cheapo $150 Marlin .22LR or with a M&P Sport AR. I think the main difference between the air-gun and powder-burner worlds are the significant BC differences between bullets and pellets. I could be wrong because I am just a newbie shooter learning alongside you.

 

[thomasair]

Igolfat8....I did not lube the pellets. Some tins do seem to be more oily than others, though.

Tommyb...that was a great idea to shoot your Rimfire rifle to compare.

Much of the luck in this game is simply due to the fact that the 10 ring is too small for the equipment being used. Anytime you are trying to hit a 1/2” ring with a gun that cannot do it consistently in still conditions...you are relying on luck. If my gun shoots an average group of 1.25”....the best I can do with skill is to place that 1.25” group over the 1/2” ten ring every time. From there....luck takes over. The fact of the matter is that if you scored a 10 with an air rifle at 100y....you got lucky. The skill part is just getting your rifles group centered on the target. The 244 that I shot was simply a lucky card. I may have actually done a better job on some of the lower scored cards...but the chance was not on my side. That’s the folly of the current game. There is too much machismo involved for it to change now, though.


As a rifle builder, I am really only interested in this to see if I can build a rifle good enough that it can actually shoot small enough reliable groups to turn the luck in the shooters favor. The smaller the average group...the luckier a good shooter will get. I’m not interested in the EBR or it’s ilk at all. I don’t care for the speed shooting style used by most of the current top shooters.

25m and 50y competitions have appropriately sized 10x rings that can be hit every time in still air with good equipment.

Mike 

 

[CampFussell]

Man, I'm lovin' this thread. Just sitting back taking it all in. Probably my favorite thread on AGN. 



Hope to get back to shooting once this swampy nasty summer is over.

 

[Centercut]

Much of the luck in this game is simply due to the fact that the 10 ring is too small for the equipment being used. Anytime you are trying to hit a 1/2” ring with a gun that cannot do it consistently in still conditions…you are relying on luck. If my gun shoots an average group of 1.25”….the best I can do with skill is to place that 1.25” group over the 1/2” ten ring every time. From there….luck takes over. The fact of the matter is that if you scored a 10 with an air rifle at 100y….you got lucky. The skill part is just getting your rifles group centered on the target. The 244 that I shot was simply a lucky card. I may have actually done a better job on some of the lower scored cards…but the chance was not on my side. That’s the folly of the current game. There is too much machismo involved for it to change now, though.
Mike

We’ve discussed this before, and I’ve had some time to think about it. I do agree with your points above to an extent. But what percentage is luck in this situation and what part is skill and experience?

So let’s say you have a gun that consistently shoots 1” at 100 yards, and the target bull is 1/2”. This means that there is 1/4” around the bull that constitutes the “luck” factor. So now let’s look at typical EBR or RMAC winds, say 10mph from 90 degrees, which is fairly typical in those places. With a pellets BC of .050, the wind drift at 100 yards is approx 8 inches. And let’s say it shifts from 10 down to 6 and up to 14, so you have a base drift of 8 inches and variances from 5 to 12 inches. Not only do you have to hold for the 8 inches but also read those changes and shoot when conditions are best for you. You must judge that 7 inch variance prior to pulling the trigger. IMHO, that 1/4” “luck” factor pales to insignificance in comparison to the 7 inch “skill” factor. In this case by a margin of 28 to 1, or approx 97% skill to 3% luck.

So yes, in completely calm conditions, or very light consistent winds your reasoning is sound, but those aforementioned tournaments are not shot in those conditions. They are shot in conditions more closer to my hypothetical example above…

 

[tommyb]

Much of the luck in this game is simply due to the fact that the 10 ring is too small for the equipment being used. Anytime you are trying to hit a 1/2” ring with a gun that cannot do it consistently in still conditions…you are relying on luck. If my gun shoots an average group of 1.25”….the best I can do with skill is to place that 1.25” group over the 1/2” ten ring every time. From there….luck takes over. The fact of the matter is that if you scored a 10 with an air rifle at 100y….you got lucky. The skill part is just getting your rifles group centered on the target. The 244 that I shot was simply a lucky card. I may have actually done a better job on some of the lower scored cards…but the chance was not on my side. That’s the folly of the current game. There is too much machismo involved for it to change now, though.
Mike

We’ve discussed this before, and I’ve had some time to think about it. I do agree with your points above to an extent. But what percentage is luck in this situation and what part is skill and experience?

So let’s say you have a gun that consistently shoots 1” at 100 yards, and the target bull is 1/2”. This means that there is 1/4” around the bull that constitutes the “luck” factor. So now let’s look at typical EBR or RMAC winds, say 10mph from 90 degrees, which is fairly typical in those places. With a pellets BC of .050, the wind drift at 100 yards is approx 8 inches. And let’s say it shifts from 10 down to 6 and up to 14, so you have a base drift of 8 inches and variances from 5 to 12 inches. Not only do you have to hold for the 8 inches but also read those changes and shoot when conditions are best for you. You must judge that 7 inch variance prior to pulling the trigger. IMHO, that 1/4” “luck” factor pales to insignificance in comparison to the 7 inch “skill” factor. In this case by a margin of 28 to 1, or approx 97% skill to 3% luck.

So yes, in completely calm conditions, or very light consistent winds your reasoning is sound, but those aforementioned tournaments are not shot in those conditions. They are shot in conditions more closer to my hypothetical example above…

+1 - I could not have described this any better. Both of you makes good points, but I totally agree that the skill vs. luck ratio is heavily leaning towards skill in the above example. This seems very logical to me. 

Let’s say the three of us had a friendly competition, all shooting a Thomas air rifle in a mechanical rest at 100 yards. The assumption here is that all three rifles have been vigorously tested for optimum performance. The wind is up and blowing 10-12 mph. We all shoot a total of 5 EBR cards. I’m fairly certain that even though the gun is capable of 1” groups, I’m coming in last place! Why? Because it’s your mutual skill and experience that beats my “skill and experience.” It’s not luck that determines the best scores shooting a very representative 125 total shots in this hypothetical scenario. It’s more skill IMO.


Tom

 

[thomasair]

Mike, you are simply rationalizing what you want to believe.

It makes no difference what the wind is. The bottom line is that any 10 shot with a gun incapable of doing it every time involved some degree of chance. It’s foolish to design a game of supposed skill with luck factors, when you don’t have to. Skill can only get your average group centered on the target.

Chance is not a pattern that equals out in the short term.

Two equally skilled shooters with equal equipment can shoot drastically different scores...even if they did everything right. If the equipment is capable of shooting a hypothetical 1” group (highly unlikely) it’s possible for one guy to shoot a 250 while the other guy got a 225 solely based on chance. This is a mathematical certainty...it’s not speculation. It could be fixed by simply making the rings bigger or shooting at a shorter distance...but either of those solutions would seem like a step backward to the majority of folks that want to believe that these guns are so much more capable than they really are.

A person could test this with a random number generator....but it doesn’t need to be tested....it’s a 100% guarantee based on the current parameters of target design and the lofty idea that a pellet gun can average a 1” group at 100. 


Mike 

 

[Centercut]

Appreciate your input. We all have our opinions, differing views are what makes life interesting. No one I know that shoots 100Y BR would agree with you, since despite the huge “luck” factor the top shooters seem to get lucky frequently and finish in the top ten. Golf involves lots of luck also, don’t tell Tiger Woods that his 80+ wins were just lucky...

 

[thomasair]

I’m happy to agree to disagree on this one.

Getting a hole in one involves a large portion of luck. Getting par or better for a full course every time you play involves skill. How come there are no Tigers (repeat winners) in the EBR world after 10 years? Why not change golf rules to only score holes in one? You would have a bunch of duffers that had their lucky day be tournament champs. I’ve shot multiple holes in one in golf and I’m barely a mediocre player. My brother is an outstanding player and he’s never gotten one.

Ok...back to your scheduled programming.

Mike 

 

[thomasair]

Changing all the par 3 holes to par 1 is the functional equivalent to the 100y target being shot with a gun that is incapable of doing each time. 

 

[Centercut]

Moved this discussion to another post, this one is for EBR "lucky" Target Challenge...

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/100-yard-benchrest-luck-or-skill/

 

[RB-AOA]

Great discussion . 

I think the issue is the definition of par on an EBR target. 

A hole in one in golf on an easy hole that is short with a flat green is much less difficult than a 387 yard par four over water. The same holds true on a EBR target with little or no air movement compared to swirling wind.

Since I had a small hand in the target and competitions creation here is my two cents. 

A target of 210 to 220 in fair conditions would be par. Not easy but not luck. 

A target of 230 in same conditions would be a birdie. 

A target of 240 in same would be an eagle. 

A target of 250 would be an Albatross much like this silly comparison.

Rob