EBR Target Challenge

[thomasair]

Could very well be that alloy is part of the puzzle. The HN snipers are made from a hard alloy that I cannot get to shoot accurately from an barrel long term. If I lead a barrel up with JSB pellets....I can get 15-20 perfect shots from the snipers before they start throwing wild flyers. Once this has happened, the JSBs will not shoot well out of that barrel for another 50-60 pellets, either. The snipers have a BC that is significantly better than the JSB 8.44....but are never gonna work long term out of any of my barrels. Tried every lube under the sun. The alloy is clearly different than the other HN pellets. I suspect if the pellet was made from the same alloy as the JSB...it would be too heavy....so that’s probably why they do what they do.

Mike 

 

[Mooner625]

Hi everyone. 

I have been following this thread for awhile and trying to learn a little about this game.

I finally got some targets printed on Monday. I have shot about ten targets and the best I could come up with was a 220 and several in the mid teens. 

I have a lot of work to do with setup, better bench and a lot of practice reading the wind.

I may have to move to shooting at the range where it's more open. Shooting at home between buildings and trees makes reading the wind more difficult for me. 

Mooner625 

 

[igolfat8]

Mike,

Have you tried Powder Coat or Hi-Tek coatings? They will eliminate leading.

I powder coat all of my cast lead bullets and push my open pistol pills well into the 1600's and never have any lead in my barrel or build up in my comps. I did get some build up using Hi-Tek but it may be worth a try for pellets because its a much thinner coating than powder coat.

 

[thomasair]

No...never have tried that. It’s actually not the presence of lead that is the problem with the Snipers. I think they are stripping out the lead that the JSBs are putting down. Once they get everything removed...the shotgun pattern comes out. If I shoot a bunch of JSBs through the barrel it will come back around....then switch to the snipers and get 15 flawless shots. If you push a pellet down the bore of a barrel after shooting JSBs...it’s a nice smooth feel. Shoot 50 snipers and push a pellet down and it’s rougher than a cob. Pull patches and there is nothing to see.

Mike 

 

[thomasair]

Mooner...yes, it’s almost impossible to learn the wind with wind obstacles everywhere. It will just frustrate you. Once you learn the wind you can come back to the obstacle course and begin to see some patterns and use what you learned to help you.

Mike 

 

[tommyb]

Tommy, what is the max speed you can get with the current reg setting? I.e., at what point does the speed stop increasing? That would be your Plateau.

I need to check next time I’m out at the range. I may be at it right now, but until I try to turn it up a bit more, I can’t be sure about exactly when the speed is at the plateau. I have to believe I’m real close. I may also text Martin today. Tx...Tom

Went early to my outdoor range today before Isaias heads to NC early Tuesday AM. I'm 185 miles inland, so just wind/rain and hopefully the many trees around my house and in the woods behind stay rooted. They are expecting some trees down, so keeping fingers crossed.

Shot the RAW HM1000X .22 HP this morning and turned up the HST to around 950 FPS. I was going to turn it up further ( or at least try ), but it was shooting so good at 50 yards, I wanted to bring it out to 100 yards before the rain started. Wind was very light and almost dead calm. I was again shooting the JSB 25g RD, new tin. Last one, so I need to order a 10 sleeve-pack later today.

Still getting some flyers, but it seems to be shooting better at 950 vs. 930 FPS, where Martin had it set when he tried at his range. Donne, have not forgotten your suggestion and will eventually go back down to 850-875 FPS provided the HST can get me down that low. Given it came to me at 930 FPS, not 100% sure I can back it off that low but will give it a try.

Got my first ever 220 card, hopefully more to follow. 

The 5- shot groups below were shot at 50 yards with the RDs; accu-tac G2 bipod and rear rest, light hold on gun. This was right after I turned up the HST to get it around 950. FPS. I shot a total of 8 Five shot groups at 50 yards, ( only showing a few here ), but the average for all 8 groups was .50" CTC so that's MOA. 

Before I shot the EBR cards, I did shoot a 10 shot group at 100 yards. My POA was center bull and I had eight shots which were at .82" CTC, but the 10 shot group was 1.2" CTC.

Overall, I would say now that I believe the RAW is shooting a bit more accurately at 950 FPS vs. 930 FPS with the RDs. I have to clean the Poly barrel after "each" outing as I do always get visible lead sediments on one or two patches, then one or two more and she is clean. 

 

[CampFussell]

Nice work Tom. Thanks for sharing! Hope the storm spares us!

 

[Centercut]

Good shooting Tommy. Next stop 225.

 

[tommyb]

Thanks guys.

”225” - my next goal! I was lucky it was dead calm and no wind early AM. 

 

[trlrman]

Solid work Tommy !!

 

[Crusher]

I get a few weird fliers at 100 too. But shooting 940 I think. It will do a little more, but I think I need to crank the reg to get it up to 960 I think. Just before the knee on the reg, it still throws a flier now and then. Also, I see the pellet destabilize out there at about 80 yards or so. Not every one, but maybe 25% of them. I'm going to check the stock reg in my reg tester, set my on hand HUMA just a bit higher and install. Then check to see if I can push the RD's fast enough to get the destabilization to happen out beyond 100 yards. The HM1000x is really fun to shoot. But then I have an EVOL 30... and that is another story.



Crusher

 

[tommyb]

I get a few weird fliers at 100 too. But shooting 940 I think. It will do a little more, but I think I need to crank the reg to get it up to 960 I think. Just before the knee on the reg, it still throws a flier now and then. Also, I see the pellet destabilize out there at about 80 yards or so. Not every one, but maybe 25% of them. I'm going to check the stock reg in my reg tester, set my on hand HUMA just a bit higher and install. Then check to see if I can push the RD's fast enough to get the destabilization to happen out beyond 100 yards. The HM1000x is really fun to shoot. But then I have an EVOL 30... and that is another story.



Crusher

Bill

What a coincidence, in that about 5 or 6 shots out of 25 total shots on my cards are either 7’s or 6’s. I realize some of these are missed wind calls but given you are seeing around 25% destabilize at around 80 yards might account for these weird fliers that I am getting on every card. If/when you crank up the reg on the RAW, it will be very informative to see what “new” velocity you obtain and if the pellets maintain stabilization out to 100Y.

Tom

 

[steve123]

I've shot some of the most kickass pellet guns on earth this year and haven't seen one yet that doesn't throw occasional vertical flyers at 100Y???!!! 

At 50Y some of these rifles can be amazing.

It could be a bad pellet once in awhile, I don't know, because the ES is extremely low, the precision is there, and when the trigger is pulled on a solid rest the crosshair is close to perfect.

More likely wind vectors. It's hard for me to believe but at the same time I'm surprised every time I see a pellet go way outside the side of the scoring rings when it didn't seem that it should have.

I'd like to see some slow motion video on these exceptional rifles and shooters just for the heck of it.

 

[tommyb]

I've shot some of the most kickass pellet guns on earth this year and haven't seen one yet that doesn't throw occasional vertical flyers at 100Y???!!! 

At 50Y some of these rifles can be amazing.

It could be a bad pellet once in awhile, I don't know, because the ES is extremely low, the precision is there, and when the trigger is pulled on a solid rest the crosshair is close to perfect.

More likely wind vectors. It's hard for me to believe but at the same time I'm surprised every time I see a pellet go way outside the side of the scoring rings when it didn't seem that it should have.

I'd like to see some slow motion video on these exceptional rifles and shooters just for the heck of it.

Im following your first three sentences and totally agree.

Can you translate your last two sentences, as I am not following what you are trying to say. For me personally, I’m pretty sure when it’s wind blowing them outside the scoring rings. But, when no wind - I’m not 100% sure. Which, is why I do suspect spiraling pellets sometimes. It also can be me messing up! 

If I was more experienced, I might be able to know. 

 

[steve123]

I've shot some of the most kickass pellet guns on earth this year and haven't seen one yet that doesn't throw occasional vertical flyers at 100Y???!!! 

At 50Y some of these rifles can be amazing.

It could be a bad pellet once in awhile, I don't know, because the ES is extremely low, the precision is there, and when the trigger is pulled on a solid rest the crosshair is close to perfect.

More likely wind vectors. It's hard for me to believe but at the same time I'm surprised every time I see a pellet go way outside the side of the scoring rings when it didn't seem that it should have.

I'd like to see some slow motion video on these exceptional rifles and shooters just for the heck of it.

Im following your first three sentences and totally agree.

Can you translate your last two sentences, as I am not following what you are trying to say. For me personally, I’m pretty sure when it’s wind blowing them outside the scoring rings. But, when no wind - I’m not 100% sure. Which, is why I do suspect spiraling pellets sometimes. It also can be me messing up! 

If I was more experienced, I might be able to know. 

I don't know what I'm trying to say half the time, lol.

Come to think of it, yeah even when there seems to be none to little wind the vertical flyers happen when I've shot my rifles at 100Y.

I just meant that pellets blow so much in the wind at 100Y that the vertical must be affected as well. How much I have no idea.

I shot a Thomas HP 22 last weekend at 50Y that was astounding with 25gr RD's! The amount of precision it was capable of left me shaking my head, I could have gotten a 250 if I had gotten the wind right! Edit - Twenty two 10's with a bunch of X's, two 9's, and of all things to happen my last shot was a 6 with perfect vertical, because I got ancy and didn't wait! Yet at 100Y there were those vertical anomaly's, like 7's. Average winds, not calm out. If the pellets were spiraling would that rifle shoot so well, I doubt it??? I watched the same rifle put in a .4" wide and .0 tall 5 shot group at 100Y in the 10 ring no less, then a .3" tall and a .5" wide 5 shot group.

Why, why, why ??? Pellets???

My $3100 Anschutz 22rf doesn't throw flyers that big with tested match ammo. 

Nor my 6mmBR. 

 

[tommyb]

I've shot some of the most kickass pellet guns on earth this year and haven't seen one yet that doesn't throw occasional vertical flyers at 100Y???!!! 

At 50Y some of these rifles can be amazing.

It could be a bad pellet once in awhile, I don't know, because the ES is extremely low, the precision is there, and when the trigger is pulled on a solid rest the crosshair is close to perfect.

More likely wind vectors. It's hard for me to believe but at the same time I'm surprised every time I see a pellet go way outside the side of the scoring rings when it didn't seem that it should have.

I'd like to see some slow motion video on these exceptional rifles and shooters just for the heck of it.

Im following your first three sentences and totally agree.

Can you translate your last two sentences, as I am not following what you are trying to say. For me personally, I’m pretty sure when it’s wind blowing them outside the scoring rings. But, when no wind - I’m not 100% sure. Which, is why I do suspect spiraling pellets sometimes. It also can be me messing up! 

If I was more experienced, I might be able to know. 

I don't know what I'm trying to say half the time, lol.

Come to think of it, yeah even when there seems to be none to little wind the vertical flyers happen when I've shot my rifles at 100Y.

I just meant that pellets blow so much in the wind at 100Y that the vertical must be affected as well. How much I have no idea.

I shot a Thomas HP 22 last weekend at 50Y that was astounding with 25gr RD's! The amount of precision it was capable of left me shaking my head, I could have gotten a 250 if I had gotten the wind right! 23 10's with a bunch of X's, two 9's and of all things to happen my last shot was a 6 with perfect vertical, because I got ancy and didn't wait! Yet at 100Y there were those vertical anomaly's, like 7's. Average winds, not calm out. If the pellets were spiraling would that rifle shoot so well, I doubt it??? I watched the same rifle put in a .4" wide and .0 tall 5 shot group at 100Y in the 10 ring no less, then a .3" tall and a .5" wide 5 shot group.

Why, why, why ??? Pellets???

My $3100 Anschutz 22rf doesn't throw flyers that big with tested match ammo. 

Nor my 6mmBR.

Gotcha, 

I hear you on the Rimfires. 

I have two very nice Anschutz .22 LR rifles ( 64 MPR bull barrel and a new custom 1907 with 54 action and Kelbly stock) and both can shoot MOA at 100 yards fairly often. I can manage wind much better with 40g bullets at 1100 FPS vs. with pellets at 900-950 FPS with an air gun. 

But, love the challenge with the AG. 

 

[thomasair]

Steve....my best guess is that pellets are just doing what pellets do. They are about the worst projectile ever dreamed up for cutting through the wind. BC of about 1/3 that of a rimfire bullet. The vertical is there at 50, too...but in a much smaller quantity. I believe 50y is still a reasonable expectation for accuracy with a pellet. 100y is asking a lot. Sure, they can be accurate at 100, but there is a whole lot more distance to observe and predict the movement of a pellet in the wind. Vertical is the most challenging part of 25m pellet shooting. It stands to reason that 100y would be far worse. The wind influence on a pellet is 16 times greater at 100 than it is at 25y. The further we go, the more the effects compound beyond our control. I don’t believe 100y with a pellet will ever be mastered....heck, 25m has yet to be mastered. There is far too much going on that we will never see, and the pellet is influenced by so very little.


Mike

 

[allenbowles]

 mike.....you have hit the nail on the head.......

 

[steve123]

Steve....my best guess is that pellets are just doing what pellets do. They are about the worst projectile ever dreamed up for cutting through the wind. BC of about 1/3 that of a rimfire bullet. The vertical is there at 50, too...but in a much smaller quantity. I believe 50y is still a reasonable expectation for accuracy with a pellet. 100y is asking a lot. Sure, they can be accurate at 100, but there is a whole lot more distance to observe and predict the movement of a pellet in the wind. Vertical is the most challenging part of 25m pellet shooting. It stands to reason that 100y would be far worse. The wind influence on a pellet is 16 times greater at 100 than it is at 25y. The further we go, the more the effects compound beyond our control. I don’t believe 100y with a pellet will ever be mastered....heck, 25m has yet to be mastered. There is far too much going on that we will never see, and the pellet is influenced by so very little.


Mike

I think you are right!! It is what it is. 

Darn pellets 

 

[tommyb]

Steve....my best guess is that pellets are just doing what pellets do. They are about the worst projectile ever dreamed up for cutting through the wind. BC of about 1/3 that of a rimfire bullet. The vertical is there at 50, too...but in a much smaller quantity. I believe 50y is still a reasonable expectation for accuracy with a pellet. 100y is asking a lot. Sure, they can be accurate at 100, but there is a whole lot more distance to observe and predict the movement of a pellet in the wind. Vertical is the most challenging part of 25m pellet shooting. It stands to reason that 100y would be far worse. The wind influence on a pellet is 16 times greater at 100 than it is at 25y. The further we go, the more the effects compound beyond our control. I don’t believe 100y with a pellet will ever be mastered....heck, 25m has yet to be mastered. There is far too much going on that we will never see, and the pellet is influenced by so very little.


Mike

I think you are right!! It is what it is. 

Darn pellets 

No wonder I can't hit SH%$ at 100 yards with pellets! This explains it; I can see so clearly now Grasshopper! 

Only teasin' you Mike N, but I have to agree with you that ALL of the pellet guns I own shoot better (i.e., more accurately) at 50 yards than 100 yards. This includes the Royale 400 .22, the RAW HM1000 .22, RW Safari .25 ( soon to be .22 ). And, the two Anschutz RFs I own conversely shoot very good at both 50 yards and 100 for me. I understand why, but the explanations about pellets and all of their variables are helpful. I don't feel so bad now!

That said, and with all of the adverse characteristics of pellets, there are many of you on this thread who are shooting pretty darn good with pellets at 100 yards, score-wise!

Tom