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Effect of the wind on the vertical component of POI

Do you know of a study that examines the effect of the wind on the vertical component of POI? The tailwind/headwind/side-to-side aspects are intuitively understandable, more or less - but are there other, less obvious effects of the wind to be aware of at longer ranges?
One thing that comes to mind is the Bernoulli effect, that would pull the spinning pellet up or down (assuming the wind is at 3 or 9 o'clock). In that case, wondering if ST barrel with its slower rate of twist would have an advantage over faster spinning LW, esp as the caliber grows. Some back of the napkin math shows that it ought to.
 
"greg"Do you know of a study that examines the effect of the wind on the vertical component of POI? The tailwind/headwind/side-to-side aspects are intuitively understandable, more or less - but are there other, less obvious effects of the wind to be aware of at longer ranges?
One thing that comes to mind is the Bernoulli effect, that would pull the spinning pellet up or down (assuming the wind is at 3 or 9 o'clock). In that case, wondering if ST barrel with its slower rate of twist would have an advantage over faster spinning LW, esp as the caliber grows. Some back of the napkin math shows that it ought to.
One of our members had posted this some time back. Check this link. It explains the Bernoulli effect well. http://www.thewindisnotyourfriend.com/read/bernoulli.html
 
"azuaro"This link is also a good one: http://tmtpages.com/windvector.htm

Regards,

AZUARO
Thanks for the link! That's a good graphical representation, though not sure about the correctness of the content. I.e. quote:
When the wind is blowing from twelve o'clock, the bullet effectively starts out with a muzzle velocity that is decreased by the value of the headwind velocity.

That can't be right, can it? I think a better model for 12 o'clock wind is an effectively lower BC for the pellet (or higher BC for 6 o'clock wind).
 
Most reports and charts relate to bullets.
My experience and research indicates that diabolo pellets act differently to bullets in 9:00 o'clock and 3:00 o'clock winds. Bullet charts are not accurate for 90 degree winds for shuttlecock shaped diabolo pellets IMO and IME.
Here is a report I wrote in 2010 that indicated diabolo pellets tend to impact higher in a 9:00 o'clock wind and that more bullet like pellets (.22 Monster Stratons) tend to act like bullets and impact lower in the same wind: The stronger the wind the greater the effect as indicated in this study. 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1281230781/Wind+deflection+diabolo+pellet+versus+bullet++group+pics+for+Don+Matzeder+and+others+---

For those who don't like reading reports, this is what a 9:00 o'clock wind does to my diabolo pellets (.25 Kings in this case).



However, if the wind is off a little, say 10: 00 to 12:00 or 6:00 to 8:00 (from left) then the result will reflect that angle as the pellet is either slowed or assisted by the wind. My response is purely as pertains to identifiable 90 degree wind consistent in direction, but variable in speed.

Kind regards, Harry.

 
Here is a further in-depth discussion on the topic:
Please read the responses (2 pages), not just mine but Dave Eades' (who is Harry's Lad, and who wrote the Chairgun program used by Hawke); Miles (Martin) who works in the UK in a ballistics lab; and Ron Burnett who is one of the better thinkers and researchers in the airgun world: ............( "Harry's Lad" is no relation to me but we are friends and correspond on ballistics. He is a Brit but lives in Spain).

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1426052780

I think it is worth spending time reading these because most information is just hand-me-down taken-for-granted from the powder burner world. Pellets and bullets are different in geometry and dynamics as the quote from Ron Burnett explains.
I should again add that in the field, seldom do we get "pure" winds as I had above. It takes very little bias of the wind ,away from 90 degrees, to lift or lower pellet impacts.

Kind regards, Harry.
 
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Reactions: greg
It make sense to me.
The pellet`s spin will make it climb on the wind when the wind is from the left, and visa versa from right.
But I had to go some rounds with myself in the head-and-rear-wind question.
Until I realize------ the pellet is rising from the muzzle (trajectory), and the head wind pushes this movement further upwards. And reverse when the wind is from behind.
BUT: I will think the head wind reduces the pellets energy, so that the top curve comes earlier in the flight? That would make sense to me, living in the very land of skiflyers, Bjørn Einar Romøren, Johan Remen Evensen and our current world champion Anders Fannemel 251,5 m. Say no more!

 
Fascinating reading, thanks for sharing, Harry. Previously, I thought there was no harm in to over-stabilizing a bullet. 
So, according to the formula, looks like with FX ST barrel's 1/5th (or whatever it is) spin rate compared to a typical LW - the vertical shift should be proportionately less.
In layman terms - FX's ST barrel is easier to shoot in the wind! That's great to know.
 
"azuaro"...
The BC is a CONSTANT (doesn't change), Bullet Drop is a consequence of velocity of projectile and gravity... and velocity determines Time of Flight...
...
You are shooting at 800 ft./sec to the 12 o'çlock position but there is a HURRICANE level frontal wind coming from this exact same direction at 400 fps (272 MPH) ...Without wind it takes the pellet .2075 seconds to hit the target, so Time of Flight to 50 y = .2075, but with the frontal wind the pellet will exit the gun at 800 fps but will immediately start flying at 400 fps, so the "New" Time of Flight to 50 Y = .4150 seconds.
...
A non related example will be an airplane flying south-north at 500 Knots and having head winds that are 100 Knots....The plane will still be flying at 500 Knots so the INDICATED AIR SPEED inside the cabin of the plane will be 500 Knots but the GROUND SPEED will be 400 MPH...Relating this example to the bullet example above: The bullet speed will be flying at 800 fps. but the GROUND SPEED which is the velocity of the bullet in relation with stationary objects in the ground will be 400 fps...This "Ground Velocity of the Bullet" is what is important. 





Appreciate your response, azuaro. Not to nit-pick and get rat holed on trivia, but a few notes to arrive at truth:

1. BC is not a constant (forget wind). It strongly depends on the speed of the bullet. 

2. I am pretty sure adding/subtracting tail/head wind speed to that of the pellet is far from being a good model.

A quick mental experiment:
Say there is a headwind of 30 ft/s, you throw a rock at 30 ft/s straight into that wind - the rock will fly some distance and fall to the ground, right? Obviously, it would fly a bit farther if there was no head wind. If we simply subtracted the velocity of the the wind from the initial velocity of the projectile - that would mean the rock would fall to the ground as soon as it left our hand.
Analogy of the airplane is not applicable to the projectile, because airplane (like a fish swimming upstream) use the medium itself to push away from. They develop their speed relative that medium, therefore if the medium itself moves relative to the ground - the velocity of the airplane or fish relative to the ground is calculated using primary school vector math (e.g. speeds are added or subtracted, etc).
Projectiles are different. They start off with a certain velocity relative to the ground regardless of the medium (air) movement - the only thing that changes when there is head/tail wind component is the force with which air resists that projectile's forward motion. In other words the amount of air resistance changes - aka the Drag Coefficient, and, as consequence the BC.

Where:
  • BCPhysics = ballistic coefficient as used in physics and engineering
  • M = mass
  • A = cross-sectional area
  • Cd = drag coefficient
  • f7f177957cf064a93e9811df8fe65ed1.png
     (rho)
     = average density
  • l = body length

Another mental experiment. Say you are shooting somewhere very high in the stratosphere where the density of air is 1/1000th of normal - even if there was a very strong headwind - it would hardly have any impact on the projectile, so wind itself, does not really matter per se - only the resistance it able to create.

Yet another mental experiment. Say you are shooting horizontally at 500 f/s, and there is a perfect tail wind of exactly 500 f/s. What would the speed of the pellet be while its in flight? Certainly not 1000 ft/s. In case of 500fps tail wind - there simply will be no air drag at all, so for all practical purposes the pellet will be traveling in the vacuum and will retain its 500 fps speed relative to the ground throughout the range.
In this case we'd say the Cd = 0 in the above formula, and the BC is infinitely high (aka pellet will not slow down throughout its range)