EFT (GP) BR and Silhouette - Williams, AZ - UPDATED INFO ATTACHED
- Thread starter Martin3528
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Looking good Martin. One recommendation for the Silhouette match on Sunday.
Delete any refence to caliber. 100Y for Pellets, 200 yards for Slugs/Pellets. There is no advantage to caliber when shooting the Silhouette at 100 yards with Pellets (unless of course you make the conscious decision to shoot .177 10.34 pellets)....
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That may work. Well see how many I get registered for each event.Looking good Martin. One recommendation for the Silhouette match on Sunday.
Delete any refence to caliber. 100Y for Pellets, 200 yards for Slugs/Pellets. There is no advantage to caliber when shooting the Silhouette at 100 yards with Pellets (unless of course you make the conscious decision to shoot .177 10.34 pellets)....
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This is going to be a great match in a great location. I would hate to have you miss out! Sign up now!
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I know everyone is gearing up for RMAC right now but we are really excited for EFT in Williams and all of the other shoots you are doing with it! Have you decided if we will have a final on the 100 BR yet? Could we fit it in somewhere?
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I'm also super excited for this Williams match.
If Martin can fit in a third round of 100 yard benchrest, I'd personally like to see the winner be the highest aggregate score of all 3 rounds.
(ps, if the third round becomes a Sunday deal, I'll probably pull my registration and ask for a refund. The field target and benchrest all avoiding Sunday was what I was most excited about for this match).
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how many do you have registered so far? I’m trying to see if I can make the flights work to come.
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It all depends on how many shooters we end up with. Currently I am planning on having two sessions of EBR and EFT on Friday and Saturday.
Friday: 1/2 of shooter will shoot EFT morning and EBR afternoon. Other half will shoot EBR morning and EFT afternoon.
Saturday: Those who shot EBR in the morning will shoot EFT the next morning and same for other half will switch.
The weather is pretty consistent around here, so that gives everyone a morning and afternoon for each event.
We have 10 benches available. We could try for a shootoff on Saturday afternoon, but if it gets later than about 4:30, the sun will be in our eyes as the range faces west. I will not have an EBR shootoff on Sunday so Cole, you are good!
We will be combining all scores, not just the best ones. Awards will be best of two EBR and EFT scores and best of all four scores, EBR and EFT. Hope that makes sense.
The Sunday silhouette is not planned to be speed, but head to head double elimination. It could be time consuming, so I will test it out before hand. I have had some interest in a speed event, so we can change to that depending on shooter input.
My wife has been re-painting all of AOA's EFT targets, so looking good. They should all be motorized resets - no strings (except maybe on the elk!)
Hope that all makes sense.
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Regarding benches, we have 10 in place. Unfortunately, luck of the draw is the way it goes. It would be nice to have a venue that would support 20-40 benches at one time, but we do not have that luxury.
You need to figure out how to make it work to come over. You will be pleasantly surprised!
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Thanks Martin.
Sounds like the format will be closer to a true benchrest competition than the big airgun product showcase matches. Ie the Williams match is working off aggregate score and not qualifying rounds to get a shooter into a "finals." Me being a statistics nerd, I like the aggregate method, same principle behind larger count groups tell us more than smaller count groups.......in other words, show me a 25 shot count group and a 3 shot count group and I'll be more impressed by the 25shot count group.
Sounds like the format will be closer to a true benchrest competition than the big airgun product showcase matches. Ie the Williams match is working off aggregate score and not qualifying rounds to get a shooter into a "finals." Me being a statistics nerd, I like the aggregate method, same principle behind larger count groups tell us more than smaller count groups.......in other words, show me a 25 shot count group and a 3 shot count group and I'll be more impressed by the 25shot count group.
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I agree with your statistics.... IF they were all shot in the same conditions. With splitting the groups, It makes it 2 different shoots. Just my opinion, but I will have a good time despite. It just sucks, in both EFT and EBR to lose to a group that may have better conditions. I have been on that side before. I shot a killer 50 yard target and won my relay only to lose to another relay that the wind had disappeared for. Totally get that it's a small range though, but that is why I have the preference for shooting EFT all at the same time and fitting in a final for EBR.
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Hey Mike,
You are really close with what you stated. The N50 nationals at Raton, while probably as close to a true BR match that you can get, but the venue is still not without factors that may favor bench assignments. The wind does switch and there is a big long building behind roughly 70 percent of the benches. There are maybe 10-15 benches on each end that are not backed by the building. Also, big doors are open in the building on both sides for passage to the restrooms and scorers areas that tend to mess with the center lanes a bit too but it is one of the best matches I have shot in that reduces the disparity. The multiple cards each day and shifting of benches between cards are better equalizers than shooting multiple cards at one bench.( I think there were 60 benches IIRC). It is a blast and a lot of shooting for those that love to shoot! I know it is a trip and a half for you but maybe after retirement you can make the trip. I know you would have a great time!! All of the people shooting there and the match organizers are all Super Good People!
Plus any opportunity for me to get out of the summer heat in Phoenix is just plain awesome!
Thx
Dan
You are really close with what you stated. The N50 nationals at Raton, while probably as close to a true BR match that you can get, but the venue is still not without factors that may favor bench assignments. The wind does switch and there is a big long building behind roughly 70 percent of the benches. There are maybe 10-15 benches on each end that are not backed by the building. Also, big doors are open in the building on both sides for passage to the restrooms and scorers areas that tend to mess with the center lanes a bit too but it is one of the best matches I have shot in that reduces the disparity. The multiple cards each day and shifting of benches between cards are better equalizers than shooting multiple cards at one bench.( I think there were 60 benches IIRC). It is a blast and a lot of shooting for those that love to shoot! I know it is a trip and a half for you but maybe after retirement you can make the trip. I know you would have a great time!! All of the people shooting there and the match organizers are all Super Good People!
Plus any opportunity for me to get out of the summer heat in Phoenix is just plain awesome!
Thx
Dan
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Shooting at the same time isn't possible, even for a big match. The American Field Target (as it is historically known, going back about 8 years) event at EBR for example......there is certainly something to those preferential time slots of first thing in the morning, before the wind picks up. Somebody could surely verify my memory but I believe the overall high score on the course in 2023 was one of the first handful of shooters that morning.
The early shooters on an ft course are also going to get clean faceplates, that later shooters don't get. Clean faceplates let a shooter mark their misses, and hits, which aids on subsequent shots.
Dan's example above, as well as what I just said about long range high power ft show that it's impossible to provide identical conditions to every shooter. The flip side of the impossibility of equal conditions is aggregate scoring. A friend often says, "cream rises to the top" id add, "even when the wind is blowing enough to give somebody a convenient excuse."
The statistics of looking at all shots taken being a better representation of the overall performance of a shooter isn't even arguable. Sample size has great importance in analysis of performance, and that's not just shooting. The larger the sample size, the more robust are any conclusions made based on that data. Inclusive in the very concept of a competition, the purpose is to determine a winner. That determination holds more weight when we're including an aggregate of shots taken in that competition.
Regardless, sounds like Martin is sticking with the original advertised format.
Shooting at the same time isn't possible, even for a big match. The American Field Target (as it is historically known, going back about 8 years) event at EBR for example......there is certainly something to those preferential time slots of first thing in the morning, before the wind picks up. Somebody could surely verify my memory but I believe the overall high score on the course in 2023 was one of the first handful of shooters that morning.
The early shooters on an ft course are also going to get clean faceplates, that later shooters don't get. Clean faceplates let a shooter mark their misses, and hits, which aids on subsequent shots.
Dan's example above, as well as what I just said about long range high power ft show that it's impossible to provide identical conditions to every shooter. The flip side of the impossibility of equal conditions is aggregate scoring. A friend often says, "cream rises to the top" id add, "even when the wind is blowing enough to give somebody a convenient excuse."
The statistics of looking at all shots taken being a better representation of the overall performance of a shooter isn't even arguable. Sample size has great importance in analysis of performance, and that's not just shooting. The larger the sample size, the more robust are any conclusions made based on that data. Inclusive in the very concept of a competition, the purpose is to determine a winner. That determination holds more weight when we're including an aggregate of shots taken in that competition.
Regardless, sounds like Martin is sticking with the original advertised format.
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Actually, I am all in favor of trying to get consistent lanes and shooters at the same time. A lot has to do with the final shooter numbers and current number of benches and EFT lanes. If I only get 15-20 shooters, then I may change the EFT to all shooters at one time. This would also allow me to have 2 sessions of benchrest. We could have benchrest sequentially on both days and a shootoff later on Saturday. The original format was designed around 30+ shooters. Also, I have to consider the potential for part of our EFT course to be closed because of fire conditions, but I do have an alternate location, but would probably only be able to get five lanes, unless I do some creative planning.Thanks Dan... Some that don't shoot BR can't see the obvious, but that's OK...
Anyone who does knows what you and I discussed above. It'll be interesting to watch the excuses fly that when one that thinks its fair shoots in the bad wind both days and doesn't do well. Its a possibility, also a possibility that the shooter can get two good relays.
Like Martin said, its a roll of the dice. I'm super glad NONE of the big tournaments have that point of view about aggregates scoring with various conditions, times and wind.
No one that's ever shot a relay in 20 mph wind would think the relay that followed in 2 mph wind, that their scores should be directly compared. Its really just common sense... some have it, some don’t.
I'm all for aggregates like is done at the N50 where conditions are as close to fair as humanly possible. Three cards, all shot together, benches rotated to normalize position. This isn't one of them.
Martin is the MD and has decided to stick with the "roll of the dice" method, as is his right for the 100Y BR. Good for him. Martin is a good guy, and very good shooter.
However, I'm not sure there is ANY reason to not shoot the FT course with all players starting at the same time... Yes, EBR starts at different times, and I'd be the first to admit, there is more luck involved than is normal for an EFT event. Unless all the shooters can't be started at once (for ten lanes, more than 30?), then shooters started concurrently is the obvious answer.
The idea that having consistent conditions for all shooters, while a great concept, is pretty much impossible outdoors. In EFT, even within 10 minutes the conditions may change drastically on the same target. So at an 80 yard elk, it may be calm for one shooter and five minutes later there is a 10 mph wind.
Same goes for EBR and any benchrest competition outdoors. At EBR last year I was shooting over that stupid berm on the west side and I could see my pellet look like a knuckleball headed towards the target. There was no consistency at all, but that's the way it goes sometimes. Just about every lane at EBR at Rio has some kind of different conditions. The only way to make it consistent is to shoot indoors.
If I have a lower number of shooters than I anticipate, I will adjust the format accordingly. If I can get all the shooters at a bench with only two rotations, and can do a shootoff on Saturday afternoon , then I may adjust to that format.
The best part is in July we have long days, so if we started earlier (which I like), we may be able to shoot more each day (which I like) and try to make everyone happy.
I do realize this is the first event at this location and I am trying to address most of the comments I have heard from shooters at other shoots. There will be some glitches and I hope to learn from this inaugural event and make this an annual shoot that everyone can enjoy and want to attend.
Thank you very much to those that have already registered. I am hoping you will have a great time, not just at the shoot, but visiting the great, small town of Williams, AZ.
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As a side note, my wife is currently re-painting all the EFT targets and I plan on installing the remote reset motors on them shortly, so no string pulling!
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Thanks Martin. I really appreciate your willingness to organize this and put on the match. Lots of work.
Ignore the complaints and twisted arm "suggestions" and run the match as you see fit, and as reality and the site and registration numbers allow.
And please tell your wife thank you for painting the targets all purdy. Even that step is a lot more time consuming work than most realize.
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I'm happy to see ebr type matches starting to follow the proper formats of score aggregate.
Just giving some additional BR match format input.
If you are running a 3 card aggregate format it's important to rotate benches and times. For 3 cards...you move each shooter 1/3 of the range each card. Allowing shooters to shoot all 3 cards in a single sitting from the same position introduces bias, even if the range can accommodate all the shooters in one relay. Everyone should shoot left, middle, and right side...and at all different times of day. This will even out the time and bench disparities more than any other method and detect the best shooters and rank them appropriately.
It takes a little longer to do this, but it's the right way to reduce the chance factor to as small a portion as it can be.
Mike
Just giving some additional BR match format input.
If you are running a 3 card aggregate format it's important to rotate benches and times. For 3 cards...you move each shooter 1/3 of the range each card. Allowing shooters to shoot all 3 cards in a single sitting from the same position introduces bias, even if the range can accommodate all the shooters in one relay. Everyone should shoot left, middle, and right side...and at all different times of day. This will even out the time and bench disparities more than any other method and detect the best shooters and rank them appropriately.
It takes a little longer to do this, but it's the right way to reduce the chance factor to as small a portion as it can be.
Mike
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Refresher on rules for those attending
https://extremefieldtarget.com/23-24-grand-prix.html
And here copied from the link:
GP Rules:
1. Leagues/clubs must receive approval from AoA prior to holding a GP (Submit a course of fire, safety rules, waiver, and description of range
2. A GP must have at least fifteen (15) shooters participate in the GP match.
3. League/club must sign a licensing agreement with AoA to use its name.
4. League/club will give one (1) participation point to each GP participant at his/her first GP that season. Subsequent GP events earn ½ GP point.
5. League/club will also give up to nine (9) points for top shooters, depending on how many shooters participate in their competition. Only actual competitors that finish both days of the competition will be counted for the total. The available points will be awarded as the Match Director sees fit.
Points available will be as follows:
15 to 24 shooters – 6 points
25 to 34 shooters – 7 points
35 to 44 shooters – 8 points
45+ shooters – 9 points
The MD will determine in advance of the event (and publish) how the points will be distributed. ½ point increments are allowed. First place will NEVER be greater than 3 points. Points may be awarded out through 5 places at discretion of the MD.
*** A MAXIMUM of SIX (6) points may be carried forward to the EFT GP finals at EBR, no matter how many are earned during the GP season. ***
6. “Blocking” is allowed. Blocking is defined as a shooter that already has at least 3 points at the start of a competition competing for point and prizes. Should the shooter finish “in the money”, he will earn the designated prize(s) and points, but his total season points will be limited to the amount that will give him 6 total points for the GP season. Therefore, he will essentially “block” other shooters from earning those points. For example, if a shooter enters a GP competition with 5 ½ points, and finishes first, he will earn ½ point for attendance in his subsequent event, and 3 points for winning, giving him 9 GP points total. But he can only carry 6 of those points to the EFT GP final at EBR 2024. In essence, NO ONE gets those 3 points, and they are “blocked” from other shooters.
7. Leagues/clubs must report the points awarded to AoA after their event. EFT will post results and season totals on their web site. Lists of competitors provided to AoA will include the shooter’s name, score, e-mail address, cell phone number and whether or not they intend to compete in EBR 2024.
8. Leagues/clubs may only have one GP per club per year.
9. Leagues/clubs may set their own rules, but they should be similar to the EBR EFT rules as much as reasonably possible.
10. Time limits for stages and/or lanes must be enforced. Recommended time is 1 minute set up, and 30 seconds per shot. For example, for an 8 shot lane, the time would be 1 + (8 x 30 seconds) = 5 minutes.
11. Leagues/clubs will allow unattached bipods and shooting sticks. NOTE: HOG SADDLES (such as the BOG Deathgrip) longer than 1-1/2 inches are not allowed, and bipods must be limited to 1-1/2 inches from front to back. Examples of allowed bipods are: Primos Trigger Stick or Vanguard Scout. Similar others are at the MD’s discretion.
12. Leagues/clubs may allow ANY shooting position in OPEN lanes.
However, Match Directors should discourage prone or pretzel (low) position shooting by using obstructions or other methods. Individual clubs may set their own rules for shooting position but should encourage “bucket and sticks” as much as possible.
Extreme Field Target is not designed to be a higher power version of AAFTA Field Target!!! Be advised that Match Directors are intending to make it more like real hunting where you may or may not be able to see the target with the standard 15" line of sight to the target. Have fun and be ready for anything!
13. Forced position lanes (if used) will be standing with bipod for all GP events.
Note: Forced position lanes are not required for EFT GP events.
14. MDs will determine how “ties” will be settled in advance for 1st through 5th positions. It could be most hits at the longest target, or longest streak, or a shoot off from bucket and sticks. At MD’s discretion published in advance.
15. Scorecards will have a space or box for every shot, so that the scores can be recorded with an X or an O for a hit or miss. Scorecards will be signed by the shooter and scorer after a review. Incorrect scorecards (higher than actual) will result in a disqualification. Signed scorecards lower than actual will be counted as signed.
16. General Rules not already covered:
Scoring: To compete for the National EFT Championship title, competitors must shoot EBR and at least one EFT GP event. Competitors in EFT GP events may carry up to a maximum of SIX (6) points to EBR. The EBR EFT has a maximum of 40 points. Competitors in the GP add their points to their raw EFT score at EBR. Top Competitors in the EFT GP events get automatic entry in the EBR EFT event— if top 5 and/or top 20% for their event(s), whichever is larger. These Top Competitors will be given priority to sign-up for EBR before the public.
https://extremefieldtarget.com/23-24-grand-prix.html
And here copied from the link:
GP Rules:
1. Leagues/clubs must receive approval from AoA prior to holding a GP (Submit a course of fire, safety rules, waiver, and description of range
2. A GP must have at least fifteen (15) shooters participate in the GP match.
3. League/club must sign a licensing agreement with AoA to use its name.
4. League/club will give one (1) participation point to each GP participant at his/her first GP that season. Subsequent GP events earn ½ GP point.
5. League/club will also give up to nine (9) points for top shooters, depending on how many shooters participate in their competition. Only actual competitors that finish both days of the competition will be counted for the total. The available points will be awarded as the Match Director sees fit.
Points available will be as follows:
15 to 24 shooters – 6 points
25 to 34 shooters – 7 points
35 to 44 shooters – 8 points
45+ shooters – 9 points
The MD will determine in advance of the event (and publish) how the points will be distributed. ½ point increments are allowed. First place will NEVER be greater than 3 points. Points may be awarded out through 5 places at discretion of the MD.
*** A MAXIMUM of SIX (6) points may be carried forward to the EFT GP finals at EBR, no matter how many are earned during the GP season. ***
6. “Blocking” is allowed. Blocking is defined as a shooter that already has at least 3 points at the start of a competition competing for point and prizes. Should the shooter finish “in the money”, he will earn the designated prize(s) and points, but his total season points will be limited to the amount that will give him 6 total points for the GP season. Therefore, he will essentially “block” other shooters from earning those points. For example, if a shooter enters a GP competition with 5 ½ points, and finishes first, he will earn ½ point for attendance in his subsequent event, and 3 points for winning, giving him 9 GP points total. But he can only carry 6 of those points to the EFT GP final at EBR 2024. In essence, NO ONE gets those 3 points, and they are “blocked” from other shooters.
7. Leagues/clubs must report the points awarded to AoA after their event. EFT will post results and season totals on their web site. Lists of competitors provided to AoA will include the shooter’s name, score, e-mail address, cell phone number and whether or not they intend to compete in EBR 2024.
8. Leagues/clubs may only have one GP per club per year.
9. Leagues/clubs may set their own rules, but they should be similar to the EBR EFT rules as much as reasonably possible.
10. Time limits for stages and/or lanes must be enforced. Recommended time is 1 minute set up, and 30 seconds per shot. For example, for an 8 shot lane, the time would be 1 + (8 x 30 seconds) = 5 minutes.
11. Leagues/clubs will allow unattached bipods and shooting sticks. NOTE: HOG SADDLES (such as the BOG Deathgrip) longer than 1-1/2 inches are not allowed, and bipods must be limited to 1-1/2 inches from front to back. Examples of allowed bipods are: Primos Trigger Stick or Vanguard Scout. Similar others are at the MD’s discretion.
12. Leagues/clubs may allow ANY shooting position in OPEN lanes.
However, Match Directors should discourage prone or pretzel (low) position shooting by using obstructions or other methods. Individual clubs may set their own rules for shooting position but should encourage “bucket and sticks” as much as possible.
Extreme Field Target is not designed to be a higher power version of AAFTA Field Target!!! Be advised that Match Directors are intending to make it more like real hunting where you may or may not be able to see the target with the standard 15" line of sight to the target. Have fun and be ready for anything!
13. Forced position lanes (if used) will be standing with bipod for all GP events.
Note: Forced position lanes are not required for EFT GP events.
14. MDs will determine how “ties” will be settled in advance for 1st through 5th positions. It could be most hits at the longest target, or longest streak, or a shoot off from bucket and sticks. At MD’s discretion published in advance.
15. Scorecards will have a space or box for every shot, so that the scores can be recorded with an X or an O for a hit or miss. Scorecards will be signed by the shooter and scorer after a review. Incorrect scorecards (higher than actual) will result in a disqualification. Signed scorecards lower than actual will be counted as signed.
16. General Rules not already covered:
- 100 FPE limit [or whatever limit is set by the club]
- No tripods
- No rear rests may be used
- Pellets only (no bullets/slugs)
- Scope magnification maximum of 32x (your scope can have a higher magnification, but the power used must be 32x or less). Clubs may set their own maximum scope magnification.
- Scoring will be done by league/club staff or by assigned squad shooters.
- No challenging of targets! If it falls, it counts. If it doesn’t fall, it doesn’t count. Period.
- A single seat may be used, i.e., bucket, chair, stool, bum bag, or cushion.
- No chairs with backs or arm rests are allowed.
- No shooting jackets, harnesses, slings, etc. are allowed.
Scoring: To compete for the National EFT Championship title, competitors must shoot EBR and at least one EFT GP event. Competitors in EFT GP events may carry up to a maximum of SIX (6) points to EBR. The EBR EFT has a maximum of 40 points. Competitors in the GP add their points to their raw EFT score at EBR. Top Competitors in the EFT GP events get automatic entry in the EBR EFT event— if top 5 and/or top 20% for their event(s), whichever is larger. These Top Competitors will be given priority to sign-up for EBR before the public.
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