EFT, who wants it?

[cavedweller]

I never did or would question your integrity. Sometimes I just like starting a discussion to see where it goes. my point being that the advantage is minimal at most. every sport out there is going to have somebody with an advantage. whether it is physical or mechanical, really does not matter.

a new gun is available? what better way to introduce it than to bring it to a competition. should I complain about youngsters that can see better than me? or people that can afford a better gun? no. all of those are advantages that are not going to be equalized by rules. it can be tried, but that's the way competitions go.

I'm looking forward to making it down this month and consider this just a lively discussion!

exactly
@Nofilters - I don’t think anyone would question your integrity, in fact your contributions to our Airgun community which help grow our sport or hobby are amazing.
What’s really at the heart of this issue is “rules” that lack some common sense or real world thought. In my den of all things Airgun I have 6 bipods and over 15 Hft rigs. One bipod, as of recent, has a $12.00 amazon flat bottom saddle measuring 1 3/4”. If I want to use this bipod For EFT or HFT I will have to trim 1/4” off its length to comply with the 1.5” length rule - ok but a 1/4” ? why a 1/4”?
Every shooter has access to all the same accessories and or can modify them to improve their equipment and thus improve their shooting skills.
To my mind, that is the point - improving my stability and thus accuracy; winning a prize, not so much.
By the rules, if I understand correctly, if I take a free or $4 dollar piece of a large 3.5” diameter PCP pipe and cut it into half length wise and limit my length to 1.5” thus creating a semi circular cradle and place some neoprene foam at its bottom then attach that to my trigger stick… wow…my gun resting on its 60mm air bottle is like rock steady; but me, not so much, as I’m still gonna wobble around, breathing and scratching and fiddling with my glasses and hat, dropping pellets, fighting mosquitoes etc… while hoping my flat bottom bucket doesn’t tump me over on uneven terrain. I’m not concerned about big time shooters bringing big time equipment and sponsorship to the game to showcase their stuff but as mentioned… at some point it’s not fair if the goal is a family friendly competition.
One more thought I think is really important is, being careful not to discourage the innovation Airgun hobbyists bring to our community. Case in point, @Motorhead picture of his bipod stop/rest. It’s pure innovation and not something expensive and anyone can do it. Why would we want to discourage that?
One of my greatest joys around my field target adventures, besides the people, is seeing all the cool stuff / ideas they come up with that make their game better! When I see it I often go home and try it!

 

[cavedweller]

There are no approved trademarks covering EFT / XFT / Ultimate Field Target / Extreme Field Target / Xtreme Field Target. Likewise for E/X/U benchrest names.

Reading rhe USPTO listings, their first attempts to trademark these sort of names were turned down for being too generic. They applied for many of them again and those are not yet approved.

High Power FT targets with faceplates and kill zones are indeed expensive especially if they’re built with a locking faceplate. In the long run I’m sure they require a little more maintenance too. (Locking faceplates seem to be mandatory to prevent the higher power guns from just rattling down some targets).
Silhouette type targets are much more affordable but as a shooter they can be very difficult because spotting a near-miss can be impossible.

@dgeesaman - do you happen to have some pics of these silhouette type targets and perhaps even a source to acquire.

 

[Martin3528]

re franlink previous post

The offshoot organization from Ben's matches that is also holding long range/high power matches chose to adopt this rule, disallowing square bottomed bipods as well ("hog saddles" in their rule book).

Actually that is not completely correct. I believe the rules for xft allow a flat bottom bipod but with a maximum width. I have you used my flat bottom bipod in the number of events last year. Centercut can clarify but I believe it was to not have a fixed flat bottom bipod attached to your rifle IE the hog saddle notation

 

[Centercut]

re franlink previous post

The offshoot organization from Ben's matches that is also holding long range/high power matches chose to adopt this rule, disallowing square bottomed bipods as well ("hog saddles" in their rule book).

Actually that is not completely correct. I believe the rules for xft allow a flat bottom bipod but with a maximum width. I have you used my flat bottom bipod in the number of events last year. Centercut can clarify but I believe it was to not have a fixed flat bottom bipod attached to your rifle IE the hog saddle notation

Martin, exactly. The idea was no “hog saddles” clamped to the gun, and a maximum length that will be 2 inches in 2025. Reasoning for that is we’ve seen shooters with foot long flat rests at some of the events, so the limit had to be drawn somewhere. Flat, V shaped, U shaped, no worries.

I shot with Martin in Utah August 2024 and his saddle is just fine….

“Off shoot”, original, first, biggest, best, you say potatoe I say potato - organization. . Good one.
Extreme Field Target has 19 organizations country wide running events in 2025, and currently 6 running a two day Grand Prix event.

 

[dgeesaman]

@dgeesaman - do you happen to have some pics of these silhouette type targets and perhaps even a source to acquire.

Rod and Mike can tell you where they got them. I can't recall if they made them or bought them. I can get pics the next time I'm out in our field target shed.

They're steel plates mounted on a hinge at the bottom. There is about a 3" long arm bent forward to clip the line to and pull it back up after it's been knocked down. The arm helps puts some weight in front so that it stays upright without having to lean too far forward.

 

[zx10wall]

Some good points have been made by many!

“Equipment Race” : Innovation moves the industry. Competition proves the advancements to be worthy or worthless!

Rules : A necessary evil.

My .02 ~ If improving your weapon of choice through equipment or altered current state is deemed unfair, where will the line be drawn? Is improving your trigger unfair? Is an electronic, manually operated trigger fair? Is tuning your rig to the best of efficiency & accurizing your bore fair?

Let’s play ball peopleCut the crap and let’s get it on Happy New Year

 

[Franklink]

re franlink previous post

The offshoot organization from Ben's matches that is also holding long range/high power matches chose to adopt this rule, disallowing square bottomed bipods as well ("hog saddles" in their rule book).

Actually that is not completely correct. I believe the rules for xft allow a flat bottom bipod but with a maximum width. I have you used my flat bottom bipod in the number of events last year. Centercut can clarify but I believe it was to not have a fixed flat bottom bipod attached to your rifle IE the hog saddle notation

Good clarification about the rules of the offshoot organization Martin. I knew he'd chosen to carry forward the ban on flat bottom but wasn't aware he'd also set forth a decree that allows a flat bottom bipod under a certain width.

My Veterans have a square bottom forend. I don't use a square bottom bipod, because them's the rules (with and without the additional stipulation of allowed width, depending on which match were referring to here).

I found references to the square bottom bipod rule in match reports that I wrote, going as far back as Nov and Dec of 2020. In those first matches they were holding votes on rules. I was there for some of those and not present for others. I was looking for a reference to a vote since that's how most of the rules to Ben's matches came about. I couldn't find if this particular rule was voted on or not. Either way, It's not a new rule for long range high power matches at Phoenix Rod and Gun.

As Derrick says, rules are a necessary evil. All competitions have rules. One neat thing about rules is that they apply to everyone. Martin (and Rudy if you ever make it to a match from the other corner of the country), you're not being singled out here and not at any further disadvantage than anyone else.


(On a side note....going back and reading through those early match reports, and comparing that to the animosity and bullying behavior I see now, made me realize how sad the current state of affairs in long range high power field target is. There's some names in those match reports that I really miss seeing at matches. There's also a name or two of some folks that eventually showed their true colors and what caliber of people they are. I really miss seeing the good people and the camaraderie and excitement that we started with. Sad situation really, the ripple effect of some really disappointing decisions made by a guy I used to consider a friend.)

 

[thomasair]

Maybe instead of a rule, you could offer cheap bubble levels that people could stick on their guns somewhere and then actually teach people why it's important to hold level each shot.

The idea that using a flat bottom gun with a flat bottom mating surface on the bipod is a tangible advantage due to rifle cant is stupid since matches are on uneven terrain. I'd much rather adjust my rifle cant each new shot by rotating the gun slightly in the yoke than adjusting individual legs of the shooting stick every time.

Mike

 

[Martin3528]

Good clarification about the rules of the offshoot organization Martin. I knew he'd chosen to carry forward the ban on flat bottom but wasn't aware he'd also set forth a decree that allows a flat bottom bipod under a certain width.

My Veterans have a square bottom forend. I don't use a square bottom bipod, because them's the rules (with and without the additional stipulation of allowed width, depending on which match were referring to here).

I found references to the square bottom bipod rule in match reports that I wrote, going as far back as Nov and Dec of 2020. In those first matches they were holding votes on rules. I was there for some of those and not present for others. I was looking for a reference to a vote since that's how most of the rules to Ben's matches came about. I couldn't find if this particular rule was voted on or not. Either way, It's not a new rule for long range high power matches at Phoenix Rod and Gun.

As Derrick says, rules are a necessary evil. All competitions have rules. One neat thing about rules is that they apply to everyone. Martin (and Rudy if you ever make it to a match from the other corner of the country), you're not being singled out here and not at any further disadvantage than anyone else.


(On a side note....going back and reading through those early match reports, and comparing that to the animosity and bullying behavior I see now, made me realize how sad the current state of affairs in long range high power field target is. There's some names in those match reports that I really miss seeing at matches. There's also a name or two of some folks that eventually showed their true colors and what caliber of people they are. I really miss seeing the good people and the camaraderie and excitement that we started with. Sad situation really, the ripple effect of some really disappointing decisions made by a guy I used to consider a friend.)

Colton:

Thanks for the update. I definitely do not take any of this discussion personally. As most of the people I shoot with know, I am there to have fun. If it's not fun, I'm done. It was never about me being at a disadvantage. My shooting speaks for itself! Sometimes I'm good, sometimes I'm not and most of the time I cannot blame my equipment. My biggest disadvantage is myself!

I had not heard of the bipod rule before, so was not aware it was different than other organizations. I may have read the rules a long time ago, but apparently there is not a current web site for UFT that has the rules listed. If I am mistaken and just cannot find it, let me know.

Thanks!

 

[Franklink]

Colton:

Thanks for the update. I definitely do not take any of this discussion personally. As most of the people I shoot with know, I am there to have fun. If it's not fun, I'm done. It was never about me being at a disadvantage. My shooting speaks for itself! Sometimes I'm good, sometimes I'm not and most of the time I cannot blame my equipment. My biggest disadvantage is myself!

I had not heard of the bipod rule before, so was not aware it was different than other organizations. I may have read the rules a long time ago, but apparently there is not a current web site for UFT that has the rules listed. If I am mistaken and just cannot find it, let me know.

Thanks!

No Martin, there's not currently a website. Taking it down was part of the legal proceeding for the hostile takeover of the Extreme/Xtreme FT name. Deepest pockets won that battle, not who was actually using the name first.

 

[Centercut]

I can’t remember the “V” shaped bipod being a rule at the PR&GC “UFT” matches before the split. In fact, probably half the shooters used a U shaped one and a couple used flat homemade ones. If the rules have evolved since then that’s cool and up to the MD - not sure if there was ever a vote on that or not.
I’ve always considered the F’Link a friend, and enjoyed shooting with him, as his skill is undeniable plus he’s a nice guy overall. I’m sorry we never overcame our differences and just buried the hatchet. I’ll still shoot the UFT events if I’m in the Phoenix area, and Martin’s event in N. AZ this coming July.
Right, wrong or indifferent, it seemed to me that for the big picture EFT GP series, if someone didn’t step to the plate and move things forward no one would have. Before the big bruhaha it was offered to a few of those involved, but IMHO no one wanted to take it on. Maybe my vision is clouded and that’s not the whole story but it’s how I remember it….
This whole “holding the past against others” is getting old, and certainly not Christian in any way shape or form.
As Derrick said above we do have to have basic rules, and they could vary from location to location, but generally are very similar.

 

[Martin3528]

No Martin, there's not currently a website. Taking it down was part of the legal proceeding for the hostile takeover of the Extreme/Xtreme FT name. Deepest pockets won that battle, not who was actually using the name first.

Unfortunately, that is the way court decisions are decided in a lot of cases.

Considering the low number of airgun shooters and the even lower number of Long Distance Field Target (LDFT - new acronym!) shooters, having separate organizations just appears to dilute the work that I think we are all trying to promote, which is expanding the LDFT events. I do like that most of the shooters take advantage of all the LDFT events going on around the country and I look forward to hosting another event in Williams this summer.

 

[AirNGasman]

Long Distance Field Target (LDFT - new acronym!)

Careful, Martin! Are you not aware of the well-known airgunner bearing the initials LD?

Perhaps more importantly, are you not aware how convincing some lawyers can be when they smell blood in the water?

"Asking for a friend."

.

 

[cavedweller]

Some good points have been made by many!

“Equipment Race” : Innovation moves the industry. Competition proves the advancements to be worthy or worthless!

Rules : A necessary evil.

My .02 ~ If improving your weapon of choice through equipment or altered current state is deemed unfair, where will the line be drawn? Is improving your trigger unfair? Is an electronic, manually operated trigger fair? Is tuning your rig to the best of efficiency & accurizing your bore fair?

Let’s play ball peopleCut the crap and let’s get it on Happy New Year

hell yeah

 

[cavedweller]

No Martin, there's not currently a website. Taking it down was part of the legal proceeding for the hostile takeover of the Extreme/Xtreme FT name. Deepest pockets won that battle, not who was actually using the name first.

 

[AirNGasman]

You don't wanna know. But if you think you do, please use the search function rather than re-opening that can of worms (again).

.

 

[Martin3528]

Careful, Martin! Are you not aware of the well-known airgunner bearing the initials LD?

Perhaps more importantly, are you not aware how convincing some lawyers can be when they smell blood in the water?

"Asking for a friend."

.

I think we all know LD! Did not think of that at first.

 

[AirNGasman]

I think we all know LD! Did not think of that at first.

A good, synonymous alternative could be Long Range FT. LRFT kinda rolls off the tongue; whether read as letters or one syllable (whereupon it sounds like a Nordic name). Wait...

Are there lawyers in Nordia?

.

 

[Nofilters]

Opinions vary. Lol

 

[Nofilters]

When you hear people say comments like Field Target is a equipment race and cancer, it just reflects on their shortcomings as a FT shooter.

We all know depending on where you're at in your shooting career probably has A LOT to do with the equipment you choose to use. Most newer people in the sport probably do not have as much invested compared to a person who has been doing it for awhile and is more committed to it. Just like any sport we evolve and get different equipment. With that equipment I guarantee your scores do not go up without the commitment of learning that rifle or scope and practice that goes along with it. Id be willing to bet the people that are on top of the leader boards in any AAFTA GP have done their due diligence practicing regardless of the equipment they use.

That said, I totally understand the intention behind this “rule”.