Euro HFT Here in the US?

[MilDot]

I’ve been reading about and watching many videos about HFT competition in the UK and Europe. Although similar to US Hunter Class, the format looks to be quite interesting and challenging. Shorter target ranges (8-45 yd), prone shots “off the peg” but no seats, no bipod but supported kneelers/standers, and most critically, no parallax range finding. I would like to try this format. Are there any clubs in the US that host matches in this format?

I may have to try to convince my local club here in MA to consider a UK HFT format match.

 

[Sqwirl57]

I've been interested in it too but no, I haven't come across a club that shoots it. I can guarantee that nobody will give you problems if you choose to shoot a match like that. European HFT is basically WFTF on hard mode

 

[Motorhead]

Generally we see at our club a bias for the Older Generation ( 50+ ) and with that 90% choose to shoot HUNTER.
Now said, folks like to have a sharp & focused look at what there shooting at, Play with parrilax to gain @ distance and using D.O.P.E. able to fudge the POA so the POI falls in place. Most just want to have a fun time & not really needing to think real hard in doing so.

Shooting "Hunter" under a European format of FIXED focus and no miens to parrilax range find, or honestly Bracket due to a fuzzy view outside of one distance as NOT catching on or folks really wishing to be that handicapped.

It would be an interesting survey to make if one could contact those overseas with a similar asked question as here stateside ..... Being
Europe) Given a choice in the Current Hunter rules format staying as they are, or adopting rules as they shoot under AAFTA format in the U.S.A. ?
USA) Given a choice in the Current AAFTA Hunter rules format staying as they are, or adopting the World format used for the class ?

Or some verbiage to that line of questioning ?

Just personal thoughts .. Nothing more.

 

[dayjd]

Years ago a club in Alabama tried to bring UK HFT along but it seemed from a distance it really didn't catch on. Most of our Hunter class prefer our buckets and bipods. Likely mostly to what Motorhead stated. More of us older shooters prefer our comfort to our pain. Our average age in hunter class if likely over 60 so that might explain much of why we play the American way. I think if you wanted to try the European version you could go to any Field Target club and shoot UK HFT or even try it from the unlimited class if the club offers it.

 

[scotton]

Yeah, the Hunter class shooters hate laying on the ground so much, they essentially made it illegal by disallowing attached bipods in the rules. This happened a week before my first FT match, I'm still a little butt-hurt. It's funny because UKHFT most closely resembles how I actually hunt, I have never taken shooting sticks or an orange bucket out hunting.

I've always thought that UKHFT would be a fun format, but I'm not trying to find ways to make out tiny, niche sport even tinier and niche-ier.

Funny side note, UKHFT has a class for using shooting sticks now. I had a funny comment to make about that, but I'll just shut up.

 

[drsquall]

Yeah, the Hunter class shooters hate laying on the ground so much, they essentially made it illegal by disallowing attached bipods in the rules. This happened a week before my first FT match, I'm still a little butt-hurt. It's funny because UKHFT most closely resembles how I actually hunt, I have never taken shooting sticks or an orange bucket out hunting.

I've always thought that UKHFT would be a fun format, but I'm not trying to find ways to make out tiny, niche sport even tinier and niche-ier.

Funny side note, UKHFT has a class for using shooting sticks now. I had a funny comment to make about that, but I'll just shut up.

Now I use my dove stool and shooting sticks /tripod all the time hunting for squirrels because I'm not a spot and stalk guy. I use a range finder though for hunting. So probably unlimited is better for me.

 

[BC]

I went to Worlds HFT Comp last September in England. It was a blast. I never did it before (just WFTF FT) and it was my first comp but I finished mid pack as I figured I would. You of course shoot 8-45 yards, with a less than 12 fpe gun with usually a 10 or 12X scope, with the parallax set to 25-30 yards and holding over. Cant touch the scope throughout the match and everything is done by its either in focus or not in focus. Most things 18-40ish yards are in focus, and other things out of that range are a little fuzzy or wayyyy fuzzy. They shoot targets 15-35mm at world events. Of course you shoot prone on the ground on a mat you carry along, and must touch the lane peg on all shots. 20 percent of the shots are either supported standing, standing, supported kneeling and kneeling. 30 lanes with 30 targets. 2 points for a knock down, 1 point for a face plate hit and 0 for a miss. Dont think a 0 is impossible, as their rules say there just needs to be 10mm of steel around the killzone. So you may have a school bus full of windows with a killzone amongst them, , or a spiderweb with 10mm around it, and full of holes, etc.....The top guys shoot 57ish each day and some better than that. Its a batman science game trying to figure out distances with their terrain traps and evil tricks to throw us off. Yes they do have a STICKS CLASS they just came up with a year ago. Its shot off shooting sticks, most guys use tripods. The sticks are placed over the shooting pegs and ALL shots are taken standing. Except their unsupported standing shots. The sticks guys shoot a few shots less than the top Open Class guys, so its not as easy as it appears. Standing up on even a tripod is not rock solid as laying in the muddy earth on a shooting mat. I dont think in the USA, that it would take off, because the normal Hunter guys sit on buckets and use bipods for a reason. They dont like getting up or down off the ground to shoot Open or WFTF, or their bodies wont let them, Imagine those guys throwing a mat on the ground and getting up and down from a prone position. Its great fun and very rewarding knocking down targets when its just you and the gun and the scope that you leave alone and estimate distances with your eyes and other tricks. I found out that HFT in the UK doesnt stand for Hunter Field Target, its stands for HARDER Field Target. haha Im hoping to make it to more UK events down the road, in the mean time ill be sitting on a bum bag shooting WFTF...........BC

Another reason it probably wouldnt work here is imagine course setters having to clear the grass and sticks etc from the shooting position to the target. Thats 4 inches above the ground at the peg.....

PS....there are some guys shooting STICKS in the UK because they dont like getting all muddy laying prone in the lovely British weather...haha

 

[Frank in Fairfield]

I believe it is OK to shoot prone hunter class in the USA.
You do not have to have a bucket or seat without a back.
I maybe wrong.

 

[MilDot]

I went to Worlds HFT Comp last September in England. It was a blast. I never did it before (just WFTF FT) and it was my first comp but I finished mid pack as I figured I would. You of course shoot 8-45 yards, with a less than 12 fpe gun with usually a 10 or 12X scope, with the parallax set to 25-30 yards and holding over. Cant touch the scope throughout the match and everything is done by its either in focus or not in focus. Most things 18-40ish yards are in focus, and other things out of that range are a little fuzzy or wayyyy fuzzy. They shoot targets 15-35mm at world events. Of course you shoot prone on the ground on a mat you carry along, and must touch the lane peg on all shots. 20 percent of the shots are either supported standing, standing, supported kneeling and kneeling. 30 lanes with 30 targets. 2 points for a knock down, 1 point for a face plate hit and 0 for a miss. Dont think a 0 is impossible, as their rules say there just needs to be 10mm of steel around the killzone. So you may have a school bus full of windows with a killzone amongst them, , or a spiderweb with 10mm around it, and full of holes, etc.....The top guys shoot 57ish each day and some better than that. Its a batman science game trying to figure out distances with their terrain traps and evil tricks to throw us off. Yes they do have a STICKS CLASS they just came up with a year ago. Its shot off shooting sticks, most guys use tripods. The sticks are placed over the shooting pegs and ALL shots are taken standing. Except their unsupported standing shots. The sticks guys shoot a few shots less than the top Open Class guys, so its not as easy as it appears. Standing up on even a tripod is not rock solid as laying in the muddy earth on a shooting mat. I dont think in the USA, that it would take off, because the normal Hunter guys sit on buckets and use bipods for a reason. They dont like getting up or down off the ground to shoot Open or WFTF, or their bodies wont let them, Imagine those guys throwing a mat on the ground and getting up and down from a prone position. Its great fun and very rewarding knocking down targets when its just you and the gun and the scope that you leave alone and estimate distances with your eyes and other tricks. I found out that HFT in the UK doesnt stand for Hunter Field Target, its stands for HARDER Field Target. haha Im hoping to make it to more UK events down the road, in the mean time ill be sitting on a bum bag shooting WFTF...........BC

Another reason it probably wouldnt work here is imagine course setters having to clear the grass and sticks etc from the shooting position to the target. Thats 4 inches above the ground at the peg.....

PS....there are some guys shooting STICKS in the UK because they dont like getting all muddy laying prone in the lovely British weather...haha

I totally understand but I would still like to try this format and humble myself. The problem is that you can’t just take a 12fpe gun and a suitable, large depth of field scope to a match here in the states and try it out. The course has to be set up to Euro standards (8-45 yd. target ranges, 15, 20, 25, 30 & 35mm KZ, pegs at each lane, supports for standers and kneelers, lanes cleared to permit line of site for prone shots). So the only way to actually experience a UKHFT match is to attend one that has been specifically set up for that purpose, either in Europe, at a club willing to try it here in the US, or at a course that you (and possibly members of your club) are willing to set up. My question, is anyone here, preferably in the northeast (reasonably close to me) willing to give this a try? I am willing to help.

 

[scotton]

I believe it is OK to shoot prone hunter class in the USA.
You do not have to have a bucket or seat without a back.
I maybe wrong.

Yes, you are allowed to shoot prone unsupported or with an unattached bipod. Since it is not considered an official AAFTA position, the targets do not have to be visible from the prone position. A few years ago I played around with shooting prone with an unattached bipod, but 75% of the targets were not visible from that low of a position. A full length bean bag chair with regular shooting sticks would be pretty steady, but it would only be legal the first time you used it. Then everyone would freak out and write rules about it.

If shooting prone unsupported was a decent option, some of the WFTF and Open class shooters would be doing it.

From the AAFTA rulebook revisions:
In 2009, this was added - "Prone shooters are accommodated by adding a 15” rule for non-designated targets; i.e., if not declared as off-hand/standing, kneeling, or prone, the target must be visible to prone shooters".
2014 - "Remove Prone from the list of Forced Position shots." (I assume this is when the 15" rule went away)
2015 - "No attached monopods/bipods in Hunter class"

 

[BC]

Yes, you are allowed to shoot prone unsupported or with an unattached bipod. Since it is not considered an official AAFTA position, the targets do not have to be visible from the prone position. A few years ago I played around with shooting prone with an unattached bipod, but 75% of the targets were not visible from that low of a position. A full length bean bag chair with regular shooting sticks would be pretty steady, but it would only be legal the first time you used it. Then everyone would freak out and write rules about it.

If shooting prone unsupported was a decent option, some of the WFTF and Open class shooters would be doing it.

From the AAFTA rulebook revisions:
In 2009, this was added - "Prone shooters are accommodated by adding a 15” rule for non-designated targets; i.e., if not declared as off-hand/standing, kneeling, or prone, the target must be visible to prone shooters".
2014 - "Remove Prone from the list of Forced Position shots." (I assume this is when the 15" rule went away)
2015 - "No attached monopods/bipods in Hunter class"

Hey Scotton, theres no way prone unsupported is steadier than sitting on a bum bag with the rifle on your knee. Or sitting on a bum bag with a harness. Both these positions are rock solid, almost as steady as a bench. And shooting off the peg is the same for UK HFT, rock solid, since the butt of the rifle is allowed to touch the ground in the UK. Its rock solid like a shooting bench also.

 

[BC]

I totally understand but I would still like to try this format and humble myself. The problem is that you can’t just take a 12fpe gun and a suitable, large depth of field scope to a match here in the states and try it out. The course has to be set up to Euro standards (8-45 yd. target ranges, 15, 20, 25, 30 & 35mm KZ, pegs at each lane, supports for standers and kneelers, lanes cleared to permit line of site for prone shots). So the only way to actually experience a UKHFT match is to attend one that has been specifically set up for that purpose, either in Europe, at a club willing to try it here in the US, or at a course that you (and possibly members of your club) are willing to set up. My question, is anyone here, preferably in the northeast (reasonably close to me) willing to give this a try? I am willing to help.

Hey MD, you can always throw on a Optisan CP 10 or Optisan 3-12x32 on your less than 12 fpe rifle, and head out to shoot a normal AAFTA match at your club. I have done it a few times at my local club, knowing that since I dont touch the scope, that the longer shots from 45-55 were gonna be extra tough. Im pretty good at mark 1 eye balling distances from playing golf, so i can guess within a yard or so. Thats close enough with holding over, that i may get lucky and knock down some of the longer ones. Instead of my usual FT WFTF score for the day of about 90 percent, it dropped to about 75 percent. But it was way more fun knocking down targets. Dont waste your time on other scopes, go with the Optisan as I stated above, all the guys in the UK are using them for a reason. They have great depth of field with a little blurr and tons of blur close to help figuring out distances. Their not lit reticles, so if you need that, you will have to get another like scope. Mount the scope low to the bore so close shots are easier. Its a blast shooting UK HFT style. Its just you and the gun and the targets. No range finding, just looking through the scope wondering how far that targets out there...hahaha

PS....if you wanted and could afford it, the boys and girls in the UK would love to have you at one of their shoots. (Worlds HFT 2024 is September again , just outside Nottingham at a great location on someones beautiful 500 acre farm). If that doesnt suit you, you could show up at one of the local clubs HFT weekly shoots...The guys at Redfearns are the best, and my buddy Rex likes Malden Airgun District. Any of the clubs have normal weekly shoots, and most places have a FT course or two or three, set up year round, so you just have to show up and pay a few pounds and go shoot.

 

[c_m_shooter]

You will not find enough of a group in the US that wants to make the sport more difficult. Remember when the hunter class shooters didn't think it was fair to be limited to a 12x scope?

 

[MilDot]

I understand the “comfort factor” that has driven the evolution of the Hunter class and its role in helping to maintain what we all understand to be the older generation of people that have typically been participating in our sport. But what about our responsibility to interest the younger generation in taking up FT shooting? We see plenty of the younger people taking part in outdoor, extreme sports. Perhaps the opportunity to rough it by crawling on the ground on a mat and facing the challenge of making shots with minimal equipment can be portrayed as new, exciting, trendy, macho, and fun to younger people. It may be a stretch, but it may also be something to think more seriously about. Adding spice to our sport may be just the ticket to attract and maintain younger shooters who will be able to help perpetuate the sport.

I, for one, am nearly 72. However, I am thankful that I’ve been able to remain physically fit enough to get up, sit down, walk, stand, kneel, and shoot with a moderate degree of proficiently while still having a good time. I’m not going to let my age get the way of finding different ways to have time on the range an I look forward to experimenting with the Euro HFT format this season. I hope others may also want to give it a try.

 

[Motorhead]

You will not find enough of a group in the US that wants to make the sport more difficult. Remember when the hunter class shooters didn't think it was fair to be limited to a 12x scope?

Yet we excelled in spite of these limitations. And YES early on it was hard and took many of us a few years in figuring out how to best mitigate the limitations of 12X as well figuring out how to get REALLY stable while on a seat w/ sticks.
O' how far we have come !!!

 

[Scotchmo]

…

From the AAFTA rulebook revisions:
In 2009, this was added - "Prone shooters are accommodated by adding a 15” rule for non-designated targets; i.e., if not declared as off-hand/standing, kneeling, or prone, the target must be visible to prone shooters".
2014 - "Remove Prone from the list of Forced Position shots." (I assume this is when the 15" rule went away)
2015 - "No attached monopods/bipods in Hunter class"

Our club was hosting AAFTA sanctioned Hunter only matches starting back in 2013. The AAFTA rules had this: “…If shooting a Hunter only course, terrain features (trees, stumps, fence, etc.) may be used for support.” We had lanes setup for competitors to do just that. For those that wanted to shoot in other than Hunter, we let them shoot unofficially in their own classes. AAFTA removed Hunter only match rules in 2014. Over time, AAFTA Hunter rules got more like Open, less like HFT. That made sence, so that all classes could shoot the same course, same difficulty, with similar success. There were quite a few of us shooting prone back then (before 2015), with attached bipods, and just a few using terrain features.

 

[MikeAndrews]

When I first got started in field target was 1987 in the MD,DC,and northern Virginia area. We created the Capitol Area Field Target Aso ( CAFTA)
and the only rules we had to go by were the British approach. So we either shot offhand or sat on a bum bag or prone. As we traveled around the country we saw the inclusion of low beach chairs but dismissed them as they made it too easy. I dont recall any scope limitations at that time but there’s a few things I don’t recall .

 

[gonzav71]

I totally understand but I would still like to try this format and humble myself. The problem is that you can’t just take a 12fpe gun and a suitable, large depth of field scope to a match here in the states and try it out. The course has to be set up to Euro standards (8-45 yd. target ranges, 15, 20, 25, 30 & 35mm KZ, pegs at each lane, supports for standers and kneelers, lanes cleared to permit line of site for prone shots). So the only way to actually experience a UKHFT match is to attend one that has been specifically set up for that purpose, either in Europe, at a club willing to try it here in the US, or at a course that you (and possibly members of your club) are willing to set up. My question, is anyone here, preferably in the northeast (reasonably close to me) willing to give this a try? I am willing to help.

I am willing to host a HFT match at either RFG or CAGC. I need to read up on the specific rules and move the long targets down to 45 yards. We have don’t have every size of Killzones. You need to bring your own prone mat that you carry from lane to lane or wear a rain suit to repel the mud. I believe it is one shot per target format. I believe sitting position is not allowed.

 

[scotton]

Hey Scotton, theres no way prone unsupported is steadier than sitting on a bum bag with the rifle on your knee. Or sitting on a bum bag with a harness. Both these positions are rock solid, almost as steady as a bench. And shooting off the peg is the same for UK HFT, rock solid, since the butt of the rifle is allowed to touch the ground in the UK. Its rock solid like a shooting bench also.

I agree about prone unsupported be unsteady. I thought I was saying that if it was steady, everyone would be doing it. I see now that I done didn't rite the wurds gud. See you in a week with some other people that talk funny (talkin about cajuns, not David Slade).

 

[rich177]

First of all, AAFTA Field Target is NOT, repeat NOT a simulation of hunting. It is a shooting discipline that has some of the same features as hunting. Second, Hunter Field Target in the UK is very different than the Hunter Division of AAFTA Field Target with different rules. The Hunter Division of AAFTA was created for several reasons including the ability of an airgun hunter to be able to use his hunter equipment to compete in Field Target without being "outgunned" by the equipment being used in the Open Division and enabling older shooters who were unable to sit on the ground the ability to continu8e to shoot FT. The AAFTA Hunter Division was never designed to mimic the UK version.

Someone in the US could certainly run a UK rules Hunter match if they chose to do so however it would require more work. A UK Hunter course would need to be designed differently than a AAFTA course whereas all AAFTA divisions can shoot the same course.. Additionally FT shooters are a small group and adding UK Hunter here would dilute the FT shooting population further. Almost all club level matches already don't have enough shooters to have enough shooters in each class/division to give awards for each. Adding UK Hunter would make that condition worse. AAFTA rules have evolved to a point where they provide an opportunity for almost anyone to shoot. Adding UK Hunter , at his time, is one of those "nice" ideas that would just add lots more work and would not provide more shooting opportunity or grow the sport.

Respectfully,
Rick Bassett