Is it possible to get a hydro test on a outdated bottle ? I realize they will not fill them, but just looking at another safety factor for a person with their own compressor. Darell
expired scba bottles
- Thread starter kayaker
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I am not 100% sure of this but my understanding is that any certified test facility is required to drill a hole in any out date or test failure tank. Make sure you ask first before you hand over your tank. Mike "Centercut" did a nice write up on a study the Navy did regarding the life of these tanks. You might search for that report, it was only a month or two back.
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And to add to what Nick (socaloldman) said above, I would be hesitant to get my expired tank hydro'd if the shop outsources their hydros. If they do them in house (like San Diego Divers), then I think it would be safer to discuss it with them and your intentions prior to leaving your tank with them. If they send them out for hydro, you'll probably not get it returned intact. Remember, even if your tank gets drilled, the valve assembly is still useable.
Mike
Mike
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Nick & Mike Thanks so much for your response, I'm heading to the dive shop to get the bottle back right now. Yesterday was told they would do it then they called me back in the evening last night and told me no . Will be doing more investigating. I will responed more to this ,this evening Thanks so much guys. Darell
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So I got the tank back intacked. My brother inlaw picked these two tanks up at a garage sale for 6 bucks each, they are scotts 1 hr. #1Dot E9716-4500 mfg. date 92 last hydro test 10-01 very good shape. #2 Dot E9716-4500 mfg. date 94 last hydro test 10-01 very good shape. No idea of the inside, so nick & mike you two responded to my post if your interested in the valve ass. or other P.M. me. hope mod. is okay with this. Darell
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Do you have your own compressor? If so why not remove the valve and do an inspection through the neck as best you can?. I’d use it till it’s 30 year service life Is up in 2024 if it looks as good inside as outside.
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Mike I have a new great white from joe b. air is no problem, so no compressor. One of the dive shop owners said he'll get back to me tomorrow about the tanks. I was on the understanding that these were only 15 yrs life span that's why they won't hydro them. Maybe better luck tomorrow I'll see what happens, meantime I'll pull the valve off & look inside. Sorry still trying to learn all this stuff its all new to me, but making progress from all of you thanks so much Darell
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True, they have a federally mandated 15 year service life, but are DESIGNED for a 30 year service life. The exact same tank in Europe has a legal 30 year service life. Take it for what it’s worth. If you decide to throw them away, I’ll take the valves. Don’t forget to drill a hole in them if you put them in the trash.
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Mike Took one valve off, looked good inside also looked as if they coated the inside with a anti corrosive so going to cut it in half. I think its better to destroy them then to see someone get hurt so you can have the valves. I'm not to good on computers (lol) so can you pm me with your address then I'll send them your way. Darell
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Thanks Darell. FYI, some anonymous member gave me a negative accuracy for my recommendations above. I’m guessing they have no idea of my education and background, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how unfounded and inaccurate. And thanks Darell for the positive accuracy, I appreciate that and the valve assemblies.
Mike
Mike
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Note: 15 year SCBA's are now allowed to go to 30 years in the USA per the DOT:
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/news/phmsas-new-cylinder-special-permit-maintains-safety-standards-while-offering-cost-savings-first
Below is the DOT SP-16320 that allows this:
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/docs/news/17806/specialpermit16320.pdf
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/news/phmsas-new-cylinder-special-permit-maintains-safety-standards-while-offering-cost-savings-first
Below is the DOT SP-16320 that allows this:
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/docs/news/17806/specialpermit16320.pdf
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Unfortunately, what is required is not a normal 5 year periodicity hydro after the 15 year life to extend out to 30 years, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary that this would be safe. What is required is:
Modal Acoustic Emission (MAE) testing, which can only be done by a few businesses, and costs approx. $300 each 5 years, vice the $30 for a normal hydro.
I've bought CFFC tanks with 5 years left in service for under $200, and that included the hydro if it was required. So I'm not sure it makes financial sense for a private citizen to do this MAE. This MAE process has been approved for over a year now, and I checked into it last year.
Every CFFC tank that I have has that SP16320 on the label, which means it was designed for a 30 year service life. But it'll cost you big time to extend your tank's life past 15 years.
Modal Acoustic Emission (MAE) testing, which can only be done by a few businesses, and costs approx. $300 each 5 years, vice the $30 for a normal hydro.
I've bought CFFC tanks with 5 years left in service for under $200, and that included the hydro if it was required. So I'm not sure it makes financial sense for a private citizen to do this MAE. This MAE process has been approved for over a year now, and I checked into it last year.
Every CFFC tank that I have has that SP16320 on the label, which means it was designed for a 30 year service life. But it'll cost you big time to extend your tank's life past 15 years.
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Every tank you have has SP-16320 on it? So you own life extended tanks? Where did you get them?
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DOT-E 10945, DOT-E-10915, DOT-E-11194 are all eligible for DOT life extension under SP-16320. They are manufactured under ISO-11119-2 requirements. I have two Interspiro tanks, one Carlton and one Scott, each one of them is eligible for life extension. I'm sure yours are also.
One thing I’ve discovered after much research is that the 15 year service life is pretty much arbitrary, and based on outdated manufacturing processes from over 30 years ago for fiberglass cylinders. A summary is copied below from a recent study done on 15 versus 30 year service life for CFFC cylinders. Bottom line up front, there is NO REASON not to use the CFFC cylinder as long as it is tested (hydro) every 5 years and it doesn’t have disqualifying mechanical damage. DOT-SP 10915 and 10945 cylinders made to ISO 11119-2 were specifically pointed out as having been manufactured for a 30 year service life, along with DOT-E11194.
-Over 300 end-of-life (15 years old) DOT-CFFC cylinders have been tested to ISO 11119-2 “at manufacture” acceptance requirements, and passed. NONE FAILED!
Three years of intensive studies requested by the US Navy and DOT which followed ISO 11119-2 “at manufacture” testing procedures have conclusively shown that the DOT-CFFC cylinders can be safely used for at least 15 years beyond their current lifetime.
The tests showed that the cylinders were still meeting “at manufacture” design requirements, even after 15 years of hard use (many of the cylinders in the studies were from large metropolitan fire departments and had seen extensive use in the field). Current failures have been due to mishandling of the cylinders, not due to failure of the cylinder due to fatigue. DOT-CFFC cylinders have been fatigued up to 24,000 cycles at developed pressure (5192 psi for a cylinder with an operating pressure of 4500 psi), and did not have liner leaks. This number of cycles, according to ISO 11119-2, results in an infinite life cylinder. Cylinders have been life extended and re-qualified using these special permits.
No data has been presented that shows SCBA DOT-CFFC cylinders are not safe to life extend.
Since there is really no technical reason not to continue the 5 year hydro routine until 30 year service life is reached, one may conclude that the rationale for not doing so is strictly political. Think about it..
One thing I’ve discovered after much research is that the 15 year service life is pretty much arbitrary, and based on outdated manufacturing processes from over 30 years ago for fiberglass cylinders. A summary is copied below from a recent study done on 15 versus 30 year service life for CFFC cylinders. Bottom line up front, there is NO REASON not to use the CFFC cylinder as long as it is tested (hydro) every 5 years and it doesn’t have disqualifying mechanical damage. DOT-SP 10915 and 10945 cylinders made to ISO 11119-2 were specifically pointed out as having been manufactured for a 30 year service life, along with DOT-E11194.
-Over 300 end-of-life (15 years old) DOT-CFFC cylinders have been tested to ISO 11119-2 “at manufacture” acceptance requirements, and passed. NONE FAILED!
Three years of intensive studies requested by the US Navy and DOT which followed ISO 11119-2 “at manufacture” testing procedures have conclusively shown that the DOT-CFFC cylinders can be safely used for at least 15 years beyond their current lifetime.
The tests showed that the cylinders were still meeting “at manufacture” design requirements, even after 15 years of hard use (many of the cylinders in the studies were from large metropolitan fire departments and had seen extensive use in the field). Current failures have been due to mishandling of the cylinders, not due to failure of the cylinder due to fatigue. DOT-CFFC cylinders have been fatigued up to 24,000 cycles at developed pressure (5192 psi for a cylinder with an operating pressure of 4500 psi), and did not have liner leaks. This number of cycles, according to ISO 11119-2, results in an infinite life cylinder. Cylinders have been life extended and re-qualified using these special permits.
No data has been presented that shows SCBA DOT-CFFC cylinders are not safe to life extend.
Since there is really no technical reason not to continue the 5 year hydro routine until 30 year service life is reached, one may conclude that the rationale for not doing so is strictly political. Think about it..
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Centercut- You said:
"Every CFFC tank that I have has that SP16320 on the label, which means it was designed for a 30 year service life. But it’ll cost you big time to extend your tank’s life past 15 years."
Are you saying your tanks are already "stamped" with "SP16320"?
If so I am assuming you sent them all to Digital Wave Corporation in Centennial CO for MAE re-certification?
"Every CFFC tank that I have has that SP16320 on the label, which means it was designed for a 30 year service life. But it’ll cost you big time to extend your tank’s life past 15 years."
Are you saying your tanks are already "stamped" with "SP16320"?
If so I am assuming you sent them all to Digital Wave Corporation in Centennial CO for MAE re-certification?
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Yes, I as well would like to hear about where you received your SP16320 stamped cylinders allowing 30 years use under DOT regulations. Those sound pretty cool.
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Centercut- after reading more of this thread you also said:
"True, they have a federally mandated 15 year service life, but are DESIGNED for a 30 year service life. The exact same tank in Europe has a legal 30 year service life."
Would you mind sharing your source on this fact?
It is widely known in the SCBA industry that the European (CE) certifications and the (TC) Canadian and the (DOT) are not the same design and build requirements for CF tanks. Do you know of a specific DOT/CE/TC specification for a 30 year life tank? I realize there are a few mfg that have TC/DOT certifications on their tanks, but I don't know of any with all three?
There is a series of Luxfer mfg tanks that are specially designed for 30 year service, but the will be specifically marked with DOT-SP 14232 and will be heavier and thicker than standard CF tanks. They will also require interval testing to be extended beyond 15 years per the MFG up to a 30 year lifespan.
Luxfer has also addressed their position on MAE re-certification. You can read it for yourself at the link below.
https://www.luxfercylinders.com/press-releases/luxfer-gas-cylinders-position-concerning-life-exte
IF anyone that reads this thread takes anything away from what we are talking about it should be this. There is a lot of conjecture and opinions flying around as well as conspiracy theories that all these tank mfg are only wanting to sell you new tanks. Be that what it may. But remember this, no one, and I mean no one in this CF tank life extension story is supporting the idea that tanks will simply last 30 years without follow up incrementally timed testing. If you so choose to use your tank beyond the DOT mandated life span, without getting it MAE re-certified every 5 years, you are taking a risk as well as breaking the law. (ref 49 CFR 173.301 for starters)
The white paper that "centercut" makes reference to in the above thread, is an opinion of an employee of Digital Wave Corporation, it is meant to be a background white paper, an article that Mark Anderson of Digital Wave wrote. You can contact Mark yourself at 303-790-7559 or his email [email protected]., This article is not a technical document, read the entire document. Digital Wave Corporation in no way suggest you CF tanks are meant to be used for 30 years without MAE testing along the way.
What Digital Wave Corporation is telling us, is that they have been granted a test procedure that must be done every 5 years beyond the 15 year life cycle of a "select" group of DOT certified tanks, not all tanks are candidates for this testing. Not all tanks are made the same, each DOT or CE or TC number is a different mfg, a different design and process to build.
I think it is great that they (Digital Wave Corporation) have spent the time and energy to develop a test that the DOT has approved and granted a special SP-16320 certification. But don't read something into this that is not there. Simply put, after the 15 year life span of a select few DOT tanks, you can extend the life in 5 year increments by having the tanks MAE (Modal Acoustic Emission) tested and certified.
Keep in mind Pyramyd Air is also now partnered with Digital Wave, here is their link.
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_LE_Carbon_Fiber_Air_Tank_4500_PSI_45_Cu_Ft_DOM_2001/8635
I hope this helps. Happy shooting.
"True, they have a federally mandated 15 year service life, but are DESIGNED for a 30 year service life. The exact same tank in Europe has a legal 30 year service life."
Would you mind sharing your source on this fact?
It is widely known in the SCBA industry that the European (CE) certifications and the (TC) Canadian and the (DOT) are not the same design and build requirements for CF tanks. Do you know of a specific DOT/CE/TC specification for a 30 year life tank? I realize there are a few mfg that have TC/DOT certifications on their tanks, but I don't know of any with all three?
There is a series of Luxfer mfg tanks that are specially designed for 30 year service, but the will be specifically marked with DOT-SP 14232 and will be heavier and thicker than standard CF tanks. They will also require interval testing to be extended beyond 15 years per the MFG up to a 30 year lifespan.
Luxfer has also addressed their position on MAE re-certification. You can read it for yourself at the link below.
https://www.luxfercylinders.com/press-releases/luxfer-gas-cylinders-position-concerning-life-exte
IF anyone that reads this thread takes anything away from what we are talking about it should be this. There is a lot of conjecture and opinions flying around as well as conspiracy theories that all these tank mfg are only wanting to sell you new tanks. Be that what it may. But remember this, no one, and I mean no one in this CF tank life extension story is supporting the idea that tanks will simply last 30 years without follow up incrementally timed testing. If you so choose to use your tank beyond the DOT mandated life span, without getting it MAE re-certified every 5 years, you are taking a risk as well as breaking the law. (ref 49 CFR 173.301 for starters)
The white paper that "centercut" makes reference to in the above thread, is an opinion of an employee of Digital Wave Corporation, it is meant to be a background white paper, an article that Mark Anderson of Digital Wave wrote. You can contact Mark yourself at 303-790-7559 or his email [email protected]., This article is not a technical document, read the entire document. Digital Wave Corporation in no way suggest you CF tanks are meant to be used for 30 years without MAE testing along the way.
What Digital Wave Corporation is telling us, is that they have been granted a test procedure that must be done every 5 years beyond the 15 year life cycle of a "select" group of DOT certified tanks, not all tanks are candidates for this testing. Not all tanks are made the same, each DOT or CE or TC number is a different mfg, a different design and process to build.
I think it is great that they (Digital Wave Corporation) have spent the time and energy to develop a test that the DOT has approved and granted a special SP-16320 certification. But don't read something into this that is not there. Simply put, after the 15 year life span of a select few DOT tanks, you can extend the life in 5 year increments by having the tanks MAE (Modal Acoustic Emission) tested and certified.
Keep in mind Pyramyd Air is also now partnered with Digital Wave, here is their link.
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_LE_Carbon_Fiber_Air_Tank_4500_PSI_45_Cu_Ft_DOM_2001/8635
I hope this helps. Happy shooting.
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@fungun, what I meant was every CFFC tank I own is eligible for extension per SP16320. My bad. Wrote what I meant.
I was was saying that cylinders manufactured to ISO 11119-2 and have DOT-E-10945 and DOT-E-10915 are designed for a 30 year service life and are eligible for life extension with MAE under SP16320.
And what I actually said in more than one post was that tanks made to ISO 11119-2 are eligible per the DOT above numbers. I never said they could be used past 15 to 30 years without testing. Testing every five years is always required. What I don’t see is the reason the 5 year hydro routine couldn’t be extended. Hope that’s clear? It’s my opinion, not that of the manufacturer.
And one more time, I misspoke when I said SP 16320 was on the label of my tanks. My mistake. I meant that each one was DOT E 10945 or 10915, which are made per ISO 11119-2 and eleigible for SP 16320. I hope that clears up my mistake. To me it meant the same thing since I’ve been looking at this for so long. FYI, AE Acoustic Emission testing has been around for quite a few years...
interesting read link on AGN a couple years ago. This discussion is not new. Read on...
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/current-status-of-composite-cylinder-life-extension-beyond-15-years/
I was was saying that cylinders manufactured to ISO 11119-2 and have DOT-E-10945 and DOT-E-10915 are designed for a 30 year service life and are eligible for life extension with MAE under SP16320.
And what I actually said in more than one post was that tanks made to ISO 11119-2 are eligible per the DOT above numbers. I never said they could be used past 15 to 30 years without testing. Testing every five years is always required. What I don’t see is the reason the 5 year hydro routine couldn’t be extended. Hope that’s clear? It’s my opinion, not that of the manufacturer.
And one more time, I misspoke when I said SP 16320 was on the label of my tanks. My mistake. I meant that each one was DOT E 10945 or 10915, which are made per ISO 11119-2 and eleigible for SP 16320. I hope that clears up my mistake. To me it meant the same thing since I’ve been looking at this for so long. FYI, AE Acoustic Emission testing has been around for quite a few years...
interesting read link on AGN a couple years ago. This discussion is not new. Read on...
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/current-status-of-composite-cylinder-life-extension-beyond-15-years/
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