Extrem...ER Field target???

[Franklink]

Ben, that's been putting on the Extreme FT events here in AZ, asked me to pose this question.

The background: we've been having monthly Extreme FT matches with pellets or slugs, up to 100fpe with target distances of 20-100 yards and kill zones up to 3 inches. The new targets that he and Mike Smith designed and had made have proven to have a mechanism reliable enough to be set so that a gun putting out energies in the "regular" field target realm of right under 20fpe will knock them down and keep the high power guns from making them fall over with a face plate hit. In short, a class of sub 20fpe guns could shoot the course at the same time as the high power guys.

Is there any interest in this additional class? sub 20fpe but still out to 100 yards with the same larger kill zones. Basically would be shooting the same course as the high power guys, but could use the rig that you also shoot in regular field target. (Beware the man with one gun?)

And yes, it has been difficult enough with high power airguns, the 20fpe limit class would really make it hard. But, hey, people enjoy the 12fpe WFTF class in regular field target too, so somewhat analogous to that (other people will be shooting the same course with higher fpe but you want a true challenge of shooting at less fpe than they are).

The potential here is that people could use their same high end sub 20fpe regular field target gun and come join in the fun without needing to buy another gun (a high power one). 

I've shot my main FT gun out past 100 yards and it's a hoot. Sure is cool to hit what you want at 100 yards with slightly less than 20fpe. We were shooting at a bell target offhand last summer during warm up at one of the matches and it was a rush to connect. 

Plus, any sub 20fpe shooters could sure rub it in the face of those 70-80fpe slug shooters when they beat their trashes. 

 

[Lewis]

That sounds like a ton of fun! If we are ever able to travel again (work restrictions), I would love to give it a go!

 

[Centercut]

Wow, that would be EXXXTreme FT. The comparison is even much greater that Open to WFTF, since Open and Hunter are normally about 50% more power that WFTF (give or take), but if EXXXtreme FT would be up to 500% more power. Yikes! I would be interested in shooting it in addition to, but not instead of, the normal EFT. Just as a hoot to see what can actually be done with a <20FPE gun at up to 100 yards. 

I'm actually more interested in shooting in addition to the regular EFT an "anything goes or unlimited" EFT (<100FPE so as not to damage the targets), but any position, any equipment, etc. as long as it can be set up and four shots taken in 3 minutes. I'd also eliminate the off hand lane since in the "unlimited" EFT that would have nothing to do with the gun accuracy and wind reading... and end up being as close to real hunting as possible.

 

[Franklink]

Above my paygrade but if the Unlimited class becomes a thing, I'd vote for a couple restrictions still. You mentioned <100fpe for target damage and I agree but keeping it restricted to commercial projectiles is another one that I'd be for. I'd even say keep the scope power to 25x would be a good idea but I don't feel as strongly about that one as the power limit and commercial projectiles.

On the one hand I like a scope power limit cuz it allows more people to play, fairly, but I could also see this Unlimited as becoming an equipment race (hmmmm seems familiar), and that takes money so......

My mind is reading like an old Mastercard commercial right now.....

custom high power pcp -$6000

unobtainium slugs made with the lead melted from ore mined from the most virgin valley in the Rockies and swaged with the only mold of its kind that exists....in the entire universe - $???

Schmitt/March/Nightforce etc scope - $4000

Tripod with custom clamp- $600

And the tagline? well, kinda hard to call that $ total priceless.

 

[Centercut]

LOL Ok, ya got me there... the slug description made me snort my drink.

 

[Nofilters]

The TOPPER. Roflmao

 

[crazyhorse]

Do we have to be vaccinated to shoot against THOSE slugs ?

 

[ScottEnglish]

It is good for the industry to have matches with few rules and kits left up to the imagination of the well heeled shooters. It would also be good for the industry to sponsor matches where everyone was provided identical guns and scopes, then you would find out who the real shooters were.

 

[steve123]

Above my paygrade but if the Unlimited class becomes a thing, I'd vote for a couple restrictions still. You mentioned <100fpe for target damage and I agree but keeping it restricted to commercial projectiles is another one that I'd be for. I'd even say keep the scope power to 25x would be a good idea but I don't feel as strongly about that one as the power limit and commercial projectiles.

On the one hand I like a scope power limit cuz it allows more people to play, fairly, but I could also see this Unlimited as becoming an equipment race (hmmmm seems familiar), and that takes money so......

My mind is reading like an old Mastercard commercial right now.....

custom high power pcp -$6000

unobtainium slugs made with the lead melted from ore mined from the most virgin valley in the Rockies and swaged with the only mold of its kind that exists....in the entire universe - $???

Schmitt/March/Nightforce etc scope - $4000

Tripod with custom clamp- $600

And the tagline? well, kinda hard to call that $ total priceless.

SURELY you jest  Nothing like having a target on my back.... Love yuh anyway Cole.

Since this is your thread creation and you brought these subjects up.... Here's my tagline = DSUIA/Discrepancies Swallowed Up In Actuality

This is all highly deeebateable for an "unlimited division". Let's just call it "not quite unlimited" division or "was supposed to be unlimited" division.

There isn't a hill of beans enough difference between a Athlon Midas TAC (or insert here _____ any 'decent' scope) vs the expensive scopes, in EFT, since we only dial to 4 mils elevation or so. Since the tracking should be the same for each/within 1%/.04mil or approximately the thickness of the reticle. Guaranteed your $300 SWFA tracks just as well as my $3500 March does within 4 mils. Scope magnification, uh if in unlimited division, then why worry about what magnification is used. Mirage is either there to take advantage of, or not, if you can see it on 50x you can see it on 25X, at least for my eyes. Now before you say your 50X Falcon made all the difference in regular FT, well that's because you range distance with it, and of course the distances are given in EFT so that is mute. DSUIA

Guns - I also don't think a 1.2 moa rifle is going to have any advantage over a 1.5 moa rifle because of "match nerves, and wind estimation error", so whoever is having what I call, "a good shooting day", is going to win. Price - is there really any discernible difference between a highly tuned $2300 rifle, and a custom $4700 rifle in a FT match???, NOPE! DSUIA.

Custom slugs, as Mike N has shown when he shoots the Thomas HPX, the difference between the vertical at 100Y with his custom slugs, vs pellets right out of the tin, is about 1/2". BTW Mike N usually posts here in AGN his better groups just to show how well his rifles shoot at their best but typically his average groups, and vertical, are only "very good" but not "WOW exceptional". Well you've witnessed how well Bobby and Sandy shoot with their Red Wolves and my high score in EFT was with his Safari, so.... and 5/8th" is my wobble zone at 100Y off sticks when I'm relaxed and it's over an inch when I'm shooting a match. DSUIA.

Besides the above two paragraphs, and since there's no streamers to see what the wind is doing down range, and the wind is constantly be inconsistent and switching, it's becoming "half luck" hitting the farther targets. I think this is an absolutely stupid negative to EFT but apparently people like to put that projectile to a gamble vs having a good idea where it's going to go instead. Past 60Y the similarities between FT and EFT go right out the window as evidenced by our scores, IT'S NOT THE SAME. When I practice with SURELY in switching winds without flags I've gotten as much as 9" horizontal at 100Y, why??? because the wind switches and there's no way to tell it did down range, even with a string attached to my rifle. Now that's just silly!!! Heck even in light winds I can't hit a 3" KZ every time. Perfect example of a MAJOR DSUIA in EFT which should make all points to the contrary complete nonsense!!!

The tripod and vice, uh how many times have you won our FT matches using your harness??, while I used my tripod? The answer is often, right?!, and that's because typically tripods with vice, or shooting sticks, are about the same as a harness with thigh rest - in wobble?! Heck Bobby wins matches without any aids and he's older than the hills "JK Bobby", howbeit very handsome with awesome hair, lol . Why is that?? the answer is whoever guessed the wind correctly the most, as well as making the least mistakes, is the person most likely to win. Heck Bill won the Cali state match with his 12 fpe Thomas, that says it all doesn't it! And well there's the positional lanes which brings more drama into the equation. DSUIA.

Unlimited is meant to exhibit the state of the art, not to be shoehorned into competing in, a "limited division". because DSUIA. 

Sub 20 fpe guns in EFT. Hey it sucks missing just as much with less FPE as it does with powerful airguns, just more of the suck to go around , should be a big hit. Though if it makes them set BIGGER KZ sizes for distance I'm all for it! If it brings in more revenue for this venue I say why not add the sub 20 fpe class. 

 

[Centercut]

Damn Steve, it seems you have a strong opinion on this! Good points though, and I agree Unlimited should be UNLIMITED except of course power so we don't damage the targets. And yes, I also agree with the streamers. But I think we're in the minority there... 



I kinda disagree about WFTF being so much harder, and 40% less power really only comes into play when it gets more than a little windy. But I'm a N00b at FT so discount that. My opinion is that in a light or no wind condition Hunter is the most difficult, and Open is always the easiest (I agree with your point about stability and the "girdle"). That should stir up some comments, but its what I think based on what I've seen. IMHO only!

DSUIA...

 

[Franklink]

@steve123, First off, looks like a struck a nerve and I want to apologize, so, I'm sorry.

Lots of good discussion points. Yes, this was a discussion that I started, at Ben's request. It was intended to be a feeler for how much, if any, interest there is in shooting the same EFT course, but with 20fpe. The discussion took a turn though, when Centercut brought up the Unlimited class discussion. So, I shared my thoughts on it too. Lots of very similar sharing of opinions occurred a few months ago. My joking about the Mastercard commercial wasn't entirely directed at you (at least I don't think you were using the special wunder slugs last month). But I can see how you arrived at that conclusion. I was just trying to point out that the guy who just bought an Avenger and is really excited about airguns and wants to come compete is going to get real disappointed when he finds out the price of some of the rigs some of us are shooting, and is going to get REALLY disappointed if he finds out he got beat by somebody shooting slugs that aren't even available for purchase anywhere, for any price. 

First big point I guess I was trying to make: even in "Unlimited" class it simply is not a fair competition if someone is shooting exclusive slugs. Yeah, sure, say somebody shooting a HPX with wunderslugs knocks down 97% of the targets and the next highest score is in the 60% knockdown rate like we've been seeing (the 60% was using commercial ammo in this scenario). Did the wunderslug person really "win" though? NO, they didn't win crap. They simply had access to better tech that nobody else has access to. I feel like I need to add a disclaimer here. I've got nothing against Thomas guns, or Mike Nische. In fact, I greatly respect his ability to achieve accuracy. Heck, even the developmental work he has done to literally CREATE a slug/barrel combo that shoots better than anything else is beyond admirable. I'm sure the hours, blood, sweat, tears, know-how, etc represented by current performance of his wunderslugs are simply astronomical. The point I'm trying to make is that those slugs have no place in a "competition" until they are available to the masses. (Whether it's a special new 50 yard benchrest competition or Extreme Field Target). Otherwise it isn't a competition, it's simply a showcase of how much better those slugs are than whatever every other poor sap has to settle on shooting. So, rather than calling it "almost unlimited" we could vote on excluding the completely unfair advantage (exclusive ammo) and than the proposed Unlimited class would at least still fit under the concept of competition that most of us agree on. (Ie, someone other than a particular individual at least has a chance of winning). As I stated the last time it hit the fan like this, I have and will continue to use my one vote against anything that gives anyone an unfair advantage. 

Now, for all the other things touched on. 

Scopes. Oh come on. You and I both know that a high dollar scope is better than a cheapo. If there was no advantage to buying the good stuff, then people wouldn't. My 20x SWFA is so blurry that I can only sometimes see pellet holes in paper at 100 yards. I've read more than one comment saying the 20x SWFA SS is unuseable junk and the worst configuration (20x) of the SWFA SS. Mirage? it's gotta really be rolling for me to pick up any mirage with that poor of glass. Yeah, it tracks true and isn't too heavy or big but those are the only things going for it. Nowhere near as clear as the $600 Athlon Midas. And I'd hazard a guess that the 20x versus allowed 25x isn't helping me much either. Maybe I should upgrade to one of those AIM sports that YoDoyle is always crowing about. (couldn't resist).

Streamers and half-luck connecting with a kill zone. The streamer decision is, again above my paygrade, but most of the repeat competitors seem to not want them. As for the luck, Bobby and Sandy are at or near the top EVERY month. The concept of luck carries with it an inherent percentage of randomness. If it was just luck, those two wouldn't be doing so well every month. 

Tripod/vise versus shooting harness. You argue a strong case here. Sounds like I need to utilize that harness in the Unlimited, or even the Almost Unlimited class, if such a class becomes a thing. Yeah, harness can be crazy accurate, but I still can't figure out how to get it to hold the gun up, pointing right at the target when I'm not touching the gun with any part of my body. (Joking with you again here.)

More suck to go around. ha ha. Yeah I really think it (it = 20fpe Extreme FT) could be quite the challenge for anybody brave enough to try. If you guys get the green light for an Unlimited class, I think I'd like to give it a try with my USFT and shooting harness. Gotta say that my general opinion of that particular gun from a shooting harness gives me more confidence that it'd do well than I probably should have.

I kinda disagree about WFTF being so much harder, and 50% less power really only comes into play when it gets more than a little windy. But I'm a N00b at FT so discount that. My opinion is that in a light or no wind condition Hunter is the most difficult, and Open is always the easiest (I agree with your point about stability and the "girdle"). That should stir up some comments, but its what I think based on what I've seen. IMHO only!

DSUIA...

There was a topic here on AGN a few years ago kinda like that, "which FT class is the most difficult." At the time I had just switched from Hunter to Open (I used a bum bag and shooting sticks in Hunter and won Hunter class a handful of times in the 4 or 5 months that I was doing that). My stance at the time this question was last posed was that Open class often had the really good shooters so it was harder, simply because the other shooters in Open were hard to beat. In our club though, a bunch of people have changed classes since then so that's not really the case anymore. Lots of good shooters spread through all the classes now instead of a concentration of the best shooters in Open that we had at the time. If I was asked right now I'd have to say Hunter class is the hardest. Lots argue that that 12fpe in WFTF makes it harder but shooting in Open the last few years has made me realize that the more specialized gear and gadgets and gizmos a class is allowed, the easier it is to keep that crosshair where you want it. In my case, take Open class. I use a huge knee riser and a thigh rest and a shooting harness. As Steve alluded to above, I am benchrest stable from that thing. WFTF shooters have even more specialized "stuff." WFTF shooters say "I see your knee riser/thigh rest/harness and I raise you a butt hook big enough to create enough leverage to pop tires off rims/a shooting jacket thick enough and rigid enough to make me look like the wooden nutcracker walking around/a shooting glove since the jacket wasn't enough/oh, and I'm going to rest my thighs right on the ground and lay the gun on it and then lay my head on my thigh so that the ONLY muscle in my entire body being used in the whole process is my trigger finger." So, yeah WFTF shoots at 12fpe instead of 20, but that difference in power is more than compensated for in other ways. Hunter class is hardest (ranging at 16x is a B, sticks aren't that stable, and holdover is simply less precise than clicking). 



Taipan Veteran Long- $1500

Power plenum-$79 (debatable that it's even having much effect at the spring tension I'm using-41fpe)

SWFA SS 20x from the sample list (used)-$250

UTG scope mounts- $25

Replacement barrel and machining-$200-400 (made a trade with machinist so depends on how you look at it, regular old LW traditional non-choked from LW in Georgia, so nothing special, although machinist did some of his magic to it)

$2054 

But really, having fun and competing with a bunch of buddies who enjoy the same crazy hobby: priceless.

 

[Franklink]

......It would also be good for the industry to sponsor matches where everyone was provided identical guns and scopes, then you would find out who the real shooters were.

Sure would be fun to see how THAT would turn out. 

 

[steve123]

@steve123, First off, looks like a struck a nerve and I want to apologize, so, I'm sorry.

Lots of good discussion points. Yes, this was a discussion that I started, at Ben's request. It was intended to be a feeler for how much, if any, interest there is in shooting the same EFT course, but with 20fpe. The discussion took a turn though, when Centercut brought up the Unlimited class discussion. So, I shared my thoughts on it too. Lots of very similar sharing of opinions occurred a few months ago. My joking about the Mastercard commercial wasn't entirely directed at you (at least I don't think you were using the special wunder slugs last month). But I can see how you arrived at that conclusion. I was just trying to point out that the guy who just bought an Avenger and is really excited about airguns and wants to come compete is going to get real disappointed when he finds out the price of some of the rigs some of us are shooting, and is going to get REALLY disappointed if he finds out he got beat by somebody shooting slugs that aren't even available for purchase anywhere, for any price. 

First big point I guess I was trying to make: even in "Unlimited" class it simply is not a fair competition if someone is shooting exclusive slugs. Yeah, sure, say somebody shooting a HPX with wunderslugs knocks down 97% of the targets and the next highest score is in the 60% knockdown rate like we've been seeing (the 60% was using commercial ammo in this scenario). Did the wunderslug person really "win" though? NO, they didn't win crap. They simply had access to better tech that nobody else has access to. I feel like I need to add a disclaimer here. I've got nothing against Thomas guns, or Mike Nische. In fact, I greatly respect his ability to achieve accuracy. Heck, even the developmental work he has done to literally CREATE a slug/barrel combo that shoots better than anything else is beyond admirable. I'm sure the hours, blood, sweat, tears, know-how, etc represented by current performance of his wunderslugs are simply astronomical. The point I'm trying to make is that those slugs have no place in a "competition" until they are available to the masses. (Whether it's a special new 50 yard benchrest competition or Extreme Field Target). Otherwise it isn't a competition, it's simply a showcase of how much better those slugs are than whatever every other poor sap has to settle on shooting. So, rather than calling it "almost unlimited" we could vote on excluding the completely unfair advantage (exclusive ammo) and than the proposed Unlimited class would at least still fit under the concept of competition that most of us agree on. (Ie, someone other than a particular individual at least has a chance of winning). As I stated the last time it hit the fan like this, I have and will continue to use my one vote against anything that gives anyone an unfair advantage. 

Now, for all the other things touched on. 

Scopes. Oh come on. You and I both know that a high dollar scope is better than a cheapo. If there was no advantage to buying the good stuff, then people wouldn't. My 20x SWFA is so blurry that I can only sometimes see pellet holes in paper at 100 yards. I've read more than one comment saying the 20x SWFA SS is unuseable junk and the worst configuration (20x) of the SWFA SS. Mirage? it's gotta really be rolling for me to pick up any mirage with that poor of glass. Yeah, it tracks true and isn't too heavy or big but those are the only things going for it. Nowhere near as clear as the $600 Athlon Midas. And I'd hazard a guess that the 20x versus allowed 25x isn't helping me much either. Maybe I should upgrade to one of those AIM sports that YoDoyle is always crowing about. (couldn't resist).

Streamers and half-luck connecting with a kill zone. The streamer decision is, again above my paygrade, but most of the repeat competitors seem to not want them. As for the luck, Bobby and Sandy are at or near the top EVERY month. The concept of luck carries with it an inherent percentage of randomness. If it was just luck, those two wouldn't be doing so well every month. 

Tripod/vise versus shooting harness. You argue a strong case here. Sounds like I need to utilize that harness in the Unlimited, or even the Almost Unlimited class, if such a class becomes a thing. Yeah, harness can be crazy accurate, but I still can't figure out how to get it to hold the gun up, pointing right at the target when I'm not touching the gun with any part of my body. (Joking with you again here.)

More suck to go around. ha ha. Yeah I really think it (it = 20fpe Extreme FT) could be quite the challenge for anybody brave enough to try. If you guys get the green light for an Unlimited class, I think I'd like to give it a try with my USFT and shooting harness. Gotta say that my general opinion of that particular gun from a shooting harness gives me more confidence that it'd do well than I probably should have.

I kinda disagree about WFTF being so much harder, and 50% less power really only comes into play when it gets more than a little windy. But I'm a N00b at FT so discount that. My opinion is that in a light or no wind condition Hunter is the most difficult, and Open is always the easiest (I agree with your point about stability and the "girdle"). That should stir up some comments, but its what I think based on what I've seen. IMHO only!

DSUIA...

There was a topic here on AGN a few years ago kinda like that, "which FT class is the most difficult." At the time I had just switched from Hunter to Open (I used a bum bag and shooting sticks in Hunter and won Hunter class a handful of times in the 4 or 5 months that I was doing that). My stance at the time this question was last posed was that Open class often had the really good shooters so it was harder, simply because the other shooters in Open were hard to beat. In our club though, a bunch of people have changed classes since then so that's not really the case anymore. Lots of good shooters spread through all the classes now instead of a concentration of the best shooters in Open that we had at the time. If I was asked right now I'd have to say Hunter class is the hardest. Lots argue that that 12fpe in WFTF makes it harder but shooting in Open the last few years has made me realize that the more specialized gear and gadgets and gizmos a class is allowed, the easier it is to keep that crosshair where you want it. In my case, take Open class. I use a huge knee riser and a thigh rest and a shooting harness. As Steve alluded to above, I am benchrest stable from that thing. WFTF shooters have even more specialized "stuff." WFTF shooters say "I see your knee riser/thigh rest/harness and I raise you a butt hook big enough to create enough leverage to pop tires off rims/a shooting jacket thick enough and rigid enough to make me look like the wooden nutcracker walking around/a shooting glove since the jacket wasn't enough/oh, and I'm going to rest my thighs right on the ground and lay the gun on it and then lay my head on my thigh so that the ONLY muscle in my entire body being used in the whole process is my trigger finger." So, yeah WFTF shoots at 12fpe instead of 20, but that difference in power is more than compensated for in other ways. Hunter class is hardest (ranging at 16x is a B, sticks aren't that stable, and holdover is simply less precise than clicking). 



Taipan Veteran Long- $1500

Power plenum-$79 (debatable that it's even having much effect at the spring tension I'm using-41fpe)

SWFA SS 20x from the sample list (used)-$250

UTG scope mounts- $25

Replacement barrel and machining-$200-400 (made a trade with machinist so depends on how you look at it, regular old LW traditional non-choked from LW in Georgia, so nothing special, although machinist did some of his magic to it)

$2054 

But really, having fun and competing with a bunch of buddies who enjoy the same crazy hobby: priceless.

Apology accepted Cole, I do feel singled out....

SCOPES - yes the March is superior to the SWFA in nearly every way, BUT what difference does that make in EFT??, I say "absolutely nothing" in the practical sense/DSUIA. Why??? because I can't see where I'm missing most of the time anyway, not anymore than you can with your scope, because the targets get shot up and the KZ's aren't painted on most of them. A few times during the match, usually when the targets are fresh, I notice where I miss but otherwise only when I miss waaaaay out of the KZ. The A#1 attribute for EFT is having good tracking which is "SWFA's shining achievement", that's MUCH more important than glass quality. Mirage, what's that, lol, I hardly notice it unless it's getting bad, and by then so will everyone else. At 25x I might be able to pick up mirage better because you are limited to 20x with your scope???? Well let's SEE next time we meet up to verify with a side by side comparison. Yes I do enjoy my March because of everything it offers and it is a nice scope WHICH is why I bought it (I love nice scopes and get my kicks from trying different ones), but for EFT I can't see any advantage derived from it compared to any "decent" scope in our match setting. We can disagree, that's okay. But think about this, say you had your SWFA and I had my March, both in a regular FT match, and we both used laser range finders to get distances, what advantage would I have???, the answer is none. Ha Yeah, you should get a YOA6 and put it through the gauntlet  

Anyone CAN actually buy swagingg equipment if they want to. But C&P from my earlier post to make the same point again """"Custom slugs, as Mike N has shown when he shoots the Thomas HPX, the difference between the vertical at 100Y with his custom slugs, vs pellets right out of the tin, is about 1/2"""". Mike N sent me pics of his normal groups with his slugs, they hover around an inch of vertical like some other good shooting guns with mass produced slugs, and of course that's not including windage error, but keep in mind he's shooting off a perfectly steady table, and BR equipment, and knows how much to compensate in the vertical for wind. Question, what stops anyone from buying swaging dies and swaging down mass produced cast slugs to fit their barrels correctly, then weighing them???, the answer is there is nothing stopping them. Or for that matter buying higher quality swaged slugs either fit to their barrels or swaged by them again to fit. Or if they found slugs that shot just as well in their rifle as an HPX with Mikes slugs. I'm telling you It's a DSUIA situation in EFT!!! Besides anything else - If there is an advantage with Mikes slugs, I won't be able to shoot the difference, I'm not MIke N nor shooting off a bench. In regular FT terms using pellets to give an example, say you have a 1/4" gun at 50Y and I have a 3/8" gun at 50Y. It's going to make ZERO difference concerning our match scores, correct right??!! /DSUIA But no problem, I'll just shoot pellets and hope SURELY doesn't get the ban hammer, lol.

The top competitors will always be at the top barring weird problems and that has to do with "all marksmanship skills" and having ample equipment. The OBVIOUS and GLARING PROOF staring anyone that can SEE is the poor scores in our matches, and that has "almost" everything to do with the FACT that we don't know which direction or how far out to aim into the wind half the time with the few natural indicators present, but often with no indication at all, or the deceptive winds biting us - meaning the wind is doing things we can't see with natural indicators, and I'm more so referring to hitting farther targets here. Having streamers lessens the "randomness" you speak of but certainly doesn't eliminate it, otherwise people would shoot perfect scores in BR every time as long as the equipment was up to the task. Man look at the scores in all the EBR events using flags, it's not pretty "AT ALL"! And here we are in our staunch FT pride trying to do these longer distances without streamers . Okay if we have bigger KZ's per distance and a very low wind day but that is the exception not the norm.....

It's not "anyone's" fault if someone who shows up with minimal equipment shoots a low score or is intimidated??!! It's no different than any other shooting game when someone does the same. Look at Don, he came out knowing exactly what he was up against, we took him into our group, befriended him, and helped him. But no we didn't sell our nicer equipment to compete at a lower level to make him feel better by accommodating him like that. It's just how things are and we all know it. A novel idea all of us shooting the same gun and scope, lol??????? See - actuality is what's actually happening in real life, not a fantasy world. When I think about it VERY few of us started out with nice equipment, I didn't but as the years went by I stepped up. There will always be those that decide to walk away from a sport because unfortunately reality got in the way.

Haha, you know I touch the gun when in its vice, my cheek, shoulder, grip in the hand, and trigger finger. The stupid thing also oscillates quite a bit too which I hate. Now if I had a RRS 40mm tripod with Anvil30 head, yeah that's almost BR steady. But freestyle/unlimited is only for fun, it's not AAFTA, so even though I might get the high score it doesn't really count, I'm fine with that.

Can you imagine ole Mark out at EFT representing the springer class  

 

[steve123]

Wow, that would be EXXXTreme FT. The comparison is even much greater that Open to WFTF, since Open and Hunter are normally about 50% more power that WFTF (give or take), but if EXXXtreme FT would be up to 500% more power. Yikes! I would be interested in shooting it in addition to, but not instead of, the normal EFT. Just as a hoot to see what can actually be done with a <20FPE gun at up to 100 yards. 

I'm actually more interested in shooting in addition to the regular EFT an "anything goes or unlimited" EFT (<100FPE so as not to damage the targets), but any position, any equipment, etc. as long as it can be set up and four shots taken in 3 minutes. I'd also eliminate the off hand lane since in the "unlimited" EFT that would have nothing to do with the gun accuracy and wind reading... and end up being as close to real hunting as possible.

WFTF is awful for me to try! I'm just not steady enough and the 12 fpe rifles I've tried were super hard to hit with in the wind at the longer distances. I shot with Bill once in Freestyle 12 fpe and remember aiming out an inch at 25Y and the target falling, LOL???!!! Ha I hit it, I was shocked because it'd be edge of KZ to make the target fall with my 20 fpe rifle! 

Even though it sucks in Hunter not knowing the actual distance past 40Y(why I refuse to shoot the division anymore), I do waaaaay better than with 12 fpe. 

YMMV

 

[Franklink]

@steve123, as a trade off for me being a jerk, we should get you over here some time this summer to shoot some pdogs. I started seeing them just last week so they seem to be coming out of hibernation. I think season opens on them mid summer though. 

 

[Cloud9AG]

Steve,

You said "Even though it sucks in Hunter not knowing the actual distance past 40Y(why I refuse to shoot the division anymore)," and that is why many of the best hunter shooters I know use bracketing to figure out the distances past 40 yards. They have a range card that shows the width in scope marks (mil-dots or hashes or whatever) of the 1 1/2" KZ size or the width of the standard 8" Home Depot cinder block from 45-55 yards. You shouldn't let the inability to range with parallax deter you from shooting FT if you really want to.

 

[Exitpupil]

 In my late 50's in the twilight of a competitive shooting career I found FT. I was competitive in Hunter Class with a highly modified Korean $300 Evanix Rainstorm/Hawke combo, and was successful in Open Class with the same Evanix/Hawke "hold over" combo and later a Steyr /Sightron "clicking" combo. In my 60's I used the Steyr/Sightron to good results in the Open Class the following year. The next year I ditched the open class harness and turned the gun down to 12FPE and was still competitive. The truth is...... it requires a well rounded skill set to tune and maintain a "system" rifle /pellet/scope combo and all the requisite 3 position shooting, ranging, and wind reading skills to be successful. IT IS NOT EASY or other shooting disciplines and young shooters would transfer over and dominate and they do NOT. It is the MAIN reason the sport is slow to grow. It requires physical and mental resilience, and a host of other challenging shooting skills that most do not want to put forth. Sorry folks but you CANNOT buy a place on the podium in lowly "pellet rifle" competition. The absolute best equipment will not make up for a lack of skills, mental preparedness, and physical stamina to deal with the shooting requirements and outdoor weather conditions for 3 or more hours. Competitive minded but less experienced shooters will cleverly try to maximize rules and equipment until they develop all the skills necessary to compete head to head with the experienced "gentleman" competitors. Excuses and alibies are unflattering and nobody wants to hear them. The other truth is it is an older man's game because the absolute precision requirements are not there, otherwise it would be like the Olympics and only under 25 yro would be competitive. Us old farts time is limited, hopefully the sport is not.

 

[steve123]

Thanks for the invite Cole! I want to take you up on that PD hunt for sure. 

Cloud9AG and Exitpupil, thanks for the suggestions and comments. I probably won't have time to respond until Monday but I'll get back with you then. 

 

[bluebaby]

Wow....I thought you asked a pretty simple question, yes or no. Personally, I wouldn’t want to shoot my regular FT target at EFT. We already have a monthly match for that and I don’t see a reason to complicate the EFT with more drama even if it is for fun. The EFT is already difficult enough and I don’t think it has much to do with not having streamers. It has more to do with putting targets out that are very difficult size/distance. Reducers being used to make the targets even smaller. Painting all of the target black certainly doesn’t help. These are things being done for personal reasons by the people setting up the matches that make no sense what so ever. Because they thought it would be funny. The scores wouldn’t be as low as they are if it wasn’t intentionally being set up for failure. I understand that it’s difficult to set the course since you can only use the places where the pallets are for target location so in order to change it up different sizes need to be placed on the pallets for change. This seems to have gotten out of hand to me. It almost seems that there is so much fear of having someone clear the course it is being made literally impossible. 

Keep events separate and if you want to have a little side fun shoot that’s one thing. Most people won’t shoot through a second time for practice when given the opportunity so why stay and shoot another rifle that’s even harder. Maybe hone your skills at EFT before trying to change or add to it already. We certainly don’t need to add another class. That’s not what was intended for EFT if I am correct.

 

[Nofilters]

Announcement!!!!



CALLING ALL .177’S&.20 Calibers:





In April ONLY, The range will be available for EFT use early. We have decided to have a just-for-fun test shoot with regular FT rigs ONLY. Meaning 20 ftlbs. All current rules still apply to the fun match. We will be shooting from a seat and bipod just like normal. Some shooters already shoot out too and past 100yds with their FT rigs. Pesting birds or P-Dogs , etc. So as a way to test our competitive skills and also test targets for knock down ability. Will 20 ft.lbs @ the muzzle knock them over? The match will be free for people who are shooting the EFT. If there are shooters that just want to shoot early match contact me for details. The early shoot will start @ 8:30am so we will be done in plenty of time for the 11 am EFT monthly match. This way there is no pressure to shoot the early one unless you want to. Having an early match will also NOT affect peoples regular plans. If you would like you can shoot 20ft.lbs in both time slots.



Now :

Let me address some concerns and questions and possibly eliminate some confusion.



1)There is absolutely no intent on having a regular FT match or replacing the AOA’s we shoot every month. This is not the same as AOA’s monthly regular FT match. This is out to 100yds (APPLES and ORANGES)



2)ALL the targets were not painted black. The paddles are unpainted for consistency and fairness that the first shooter doesn’t have an advantage over the 20th shooter to see or try to see the kill zone paddle.





3)Since wind is such a factor, there's no way for anybody to have any ulterior motives. They don't know what the wind is going to do come match time. If target setters make it too easy expecting big wind and then no wind then it won't be challenging and the challenge is where the fun is. I can assure you there are no “personal reasons” for anything being done to or during the match and the setup of it.



4)This is a test for possible interest only and some, think sub 20ftlb @100 yds. is true Extreme Field Target.





5)If someone clears the course is NOT a fear or concern. A fair and equal challenge for everyone is definitely a huge concern and driving factor.





6)As has been said at every shooter's meeting and in conversation with shooters. We will start with a base rule or rules and let the shooters decide PERIOD. Ex) the wind flags that were purposed got voted down by the majority.





7)I made an incorrect call last month on allowing things to be a little different from the way I would have done. This was done with positivity and passion for this venue. That is why I decided to go with it. I was wrong and would like to apologize for it. With a new venue like this, we will likely try different things along the way. Some will stick and some won’t. I think you will agree that if we all stuck to the original ft we would have missed out on a lot of EFT fun. So please be patient and understanding change takes effort and participation by all that are involved. I am always open to listen and try to do what is right for the sport of air gunning and our little venue of EFT.











Hope this clears up some questions and helps to convey the fun challenge that is EFT.