Extreme FT rules and positions

[Centercut]

Mod Edit: this topic was Split from the Extreme Troyer topic since it has moved in a different direction

We’ve considered not allowing bum bags by making the seat requirement at least 8 inches. This keeps it fair by requiring the same position for everyone. Bucket and sticks for everyone levels the playing field. No prone either. The whole point of all including limiting scope magnification to 25x is to make marksmanship the key to a good score and minimize or eliminate loopholes and cheating... No slings, shooting jackets, stock attachments, risers, etc., etc. Pretty much your gun, your seat, and your sticks (bipod). 

 

[Scotchmo]

We’ve considered not allowing bum bags by making the seat requirement at least 8 inches. This keeps it fair by requiring the same position for everyone. Bucket and sticks for everyone levels the playing field. No prone either. The whole point of all including limiting scope magnification to 25x is to make marksmanship the key to a good score and minimize or eliminate loopholes and cheating... No slings, shooting jackets, stock attachments, risers, etc., etc. Pretty much your gun, your seat, and your sticks (bipod).

"...Bucket and sticks for everyone..."

Will the EFT rules require that we allways use sticks? I shoot AAFTA Hunter Division either sitting on the ground or on my 14" high stool. Can I shoot sitting on my stool, without using sticks? I do use sticks for some difficult target placements, but I don't need them for most targets. Sticks would be a waste of time in the box when I don't need them.

 

[Franklink]

I hadn't thought much about other shoots at TEXtreme Field Target, MB, other than (also) a pistol EFT match. But a bench-rest silhouette match would be easy to include that weekend, and folks seem to enjoy BRS.

On a slightly different subject, someone in another thread said bum-bags are allowed in EFT but girdles (shooting harnesses) are not.

That was me and I was wrong. I'd been told at one point that bumbag/shooting sticks combo would be okay but it's since been decided that's a no-go. 

And I'm completely fine with that. I like that everyone is in the same class and that it's not going to turn into a tie yourself into a , strap yourself down, attach all kinds of junk to your gun (risers, butthooks, counterweights, etc) , etc arms race like regular FT. 

The rules are evolving/getting hammered out and everything indicates that the central tenet behind all of the them is to keep anyone from being at an unfair advantage. 

This version of field target is truly a, may the best man win, situation. This isn't a, may the richest man win, or may the most ridiculous overall set-up win, or may the heaviest scope win, or may the tightest shooting jacket win, or may the tallest knee riser win, or may the most tricked out bipod saddle win, or may the one on the highest dose of beta blockers win. 

After arriving at a decent bc projectile, the only way to get an advantage is trigger time. And that's how a competition should be: put in the time practicing and you're likely to be rewarded with a decent score. 

I flat out love the fact that the rules keep people from buying their way to the top. AAFTA does alot and is an overall good organization, but to increase the growth of regular field target, they could sure take a page out of the book of how the rules for Extreme Field Target are taking shape. 

 

[Franklink]

We’ve considered not allowing bum bags by making the seat requirement at least 8 inches. This keeps it fair by requiring the same position for everyone.Bucket and sticks for everyone levels the playing field. No prone either. The whole point of all including limiting scope magnification to 25x is to make marksmanship the key to a good score and minimize or eliminate loopholes and cheating... No slings, shooting jackets, stock attachments, risers, etc., etc. Pretty much your gun, your seat, and your sticks (bipod).

"...Bucket and sticks for everyone..."

Will the EFT rules require that we allways use sticks? I shoot AAFTA Hunter Division either sitting on the ground or on my 14" high stool. Can I shoot sitting on my stool, without using sticks? I do use sticks for some difficult target placements, but I don't need them for most targets. Sticks would be a waste of time in the box when I don't need them.

Are you talking about that wheeled platform that you use? 

I'm not the organizer of the event but I will tell you right now that I'll vote against that when it comes to a vote, and it will, because the match director very much wants us all to have input. 

I've seen your contraption and it would be a very clever way to get around the rules here. It is an elevated platform that, in the case if Extreme FT would give you the unfair advantage of increased stability that comes from sitting on the ground, which is essentially what you're doing from your mini stage. 

Sounds like a rule that reads something like feet on the ground, butt on a stool/bucket at least 8inches from the ground, gun on sticks is gonna be needed. 

This is the type of thing that goes against the spirit of Extreme Field Target. 

 

[AirNGasman]

Though I agree with keeping equipment advantage as much out of the picture as reasonably possible, I don't see how a bum-bag on the ground is any technical or equipment advantage over a bucket or seat; consequently against the spirit of EFT. Maybe I'm missing something other than someone's opinion?

 

[Centercut]

Scotchmo 

"...Bucket and sticks for everyone..."

Will the EFT rules require that we allways use sticks? I shoot AAFTA Hunter Division either sitting on the ground or on my 14" high stool. Can I shoot sitting on my stool, without using sticks? I do use sticks for some difficult target placements, but I don't need them for most targets. Sticks would be a waste of time in the box when I don't need them.

I haven’t seen this mini rolling platform, nor heard of it. If you have a stool or bucket (normal kitchen step stool or Home Depot type bucket) and don’t need the “sticks” because you like shooting sitting off hand, then I’m sure we’d all agree. If its something that would give an unfair advantage it’ll be voted down in a heartbeat. Like Cole says above, the whole EAFT is built around fairness so the best shooter wins, not the best scammer... The format is evolving, and Ben (the Match Director) is all about a level playing field...

 

[Franklink]

Though I agree with keeping equipment advantage as much out of the picture as reasonably possible, I don't see how a bum-bag on the ground is any technical or equipment advantage over a bucket or seat; consequently against the spirit of EFT. Maybe I'm missing something other than someone's opinion?

I started out in Hunter class a couple of years ago and went to Open (bumbag) about a year in. After shooting from a bumbag for the past few years and now going back to sticks, I can unequivocally say that shooting from my Open class position is more stable than sticks and bucket. 

To further clarify, I do use a "girdle" (shooting harness) and with lots of practice am benchrest stable from that position. I can also offer thoughts on lowering center of gravity (bumbag or pad) without the harness as that is how I shot Hunter. I used a thin hunting pad, maybe an inch thick before being compressed,and shooting sticks. This was back in the 12x scope days and I would often win Hunter class at our monthly matches with a $550 Brocock and a $190 Vortex Crossfire. 

Lowering the center of gravity and increasing the surface area of the part of your body that is supported is an advantage. We wouldn't be having this healthy argument if it wasn't. 

 

[Beginner]

why not allow shooting with a bum bag or a shooting harness for those wishing to use them

JUST DONT LET THEM QUALIFY FOR OVERALL RESULTS OR PRIZES 

but let them in on the draws for participation prizes


just a thought from an old man struggling to just have fun with others

 

[Scotchmo]

Franklink

Are you talking about that wheeled platform that you use? 

I'm not the organizer of the event but I will tell you right now that I'll vote against that when it comes to a vote, and it will, because the match director very much wants us all to have input. 

I've seen your contraption and it would be a very clever way to get around the rules here. It is an elevated platform that, in the case if Extreme FT would give you the unfair advantage of increased stability that comes from sitting on the ground, which is essentially what you're doing from your mini stage. 

Sounds like a rule that reads something like feet on the ground, butt on a stool/bucket at least 8inches from the ground, gun on sticks is gonna be needed. 

This is the type of thing that goes against the spirit of Extreme Field Target.

No. That dolly/seat/case that I was using a couple years ago was for pistol field target. The pistol fit inside the wheeled case. I have not used that wheeled seat in awhile. This is what I use lately:

It has folding legs and a carry handle. It's 14" high with the legs extended.

 

[thomasair]

FWIW....if you at not stable using shooting stocks...it’s just because you have not yet put enough time into learning to be stable with them. 

Long ago I set up a sideshot camera and used a piece of large graph paper about 10m away with an aim point. I recorded 30 second sessions using all sorts of positions and shooting aids such as sticks, harnesses, coats, slings, etc. The shooting sticks produced the least movement on the target after learning how to get in the best position to utilize them. I think in total It took an afternoon of experimentation to find that stability.

It took years to develop a wftf position using a coat that could rival the sticks....and a few more years to find a couple wftf positions without a coat that could equal what took an afternoon to learn with sticks.

The bottom line is that if you can’t be steady with sticks as everyone else in any other position ....you just have not put in the time to learn how.

Mike 

 

[scotton]

Well, Ron, you have once again proven yourself to be a bad person and a horrible friend. Now I have to find a gun that will accurately shoot 100 yards and have enough energy to drop a target. This was all fun and games when it was happening somewhere else, but now that it's in my own back yard I will have to respond with great anger and furious vengeance. Now I need to find a springer that will shot 40 fpe, topped with the worlds toughest scope. And I will need a golf cart to haul a winch to help me cock it. This is all your fault.

 

[Centercut]

FWIW....if you at not stable using shooting stocks...it’s just because you have not yet put enough time into learning to be stable with them. 

The bottom line is that if you can’t be steady with sticks as everyone else in any other position ....you just have not put in the time to learn how.

Mike

Thanks Mike N., totally agree, and thanks also for helping us make our case. If of all the Hunter type FT options, this is the best and most stable, there is no valid reason for one to want to use something different...

The wording we are recommending in the rules, initially offered by Cole is the below:

“Shooter must sit with feet on the ground, butt on a stool/bucket at least 8 inches from the ground, and gun on sticks.”

This eliminates all the arguments and attempts to somehow work around the rules. Also makes it fair for everyone and body type and puts the emphasis on positional stability and wind reading...

 

[scotton]

Not to be contrary (well, that's my first lie), it feels odd to me to disallow bum bags while saying that you want to keep it as close to hunting as possible. Maybe it's different in Arizona, but the only time I take a bucket hunting is for dove hunting. Anytime I hunt with an airgun, it's just me and the gun with a bipod attached. That's why I prefer a bum bag for shooting regular hunter class, it's the most similar to how I actually hunt within the rules of field target.

I used to rail at the fact that AAFTA made prone shooting untenable by doing away with attached bipods, but most of the local clubs are swarming with chiggers in the summer so now I'm ok with it.

Anyway, you guys do what you want. Just thought it was a little odd to see a mandated seat height. On the other hand, I do appreciate the steps taken to keep this from becoming yet another equipment race.

And Ron, I'm still mad at you that I even feel the need to insert myself into this conversation. Life was so much simpler an hour ago when I didn't have to think about the rules of EFT. Now I'm going to have to go actually read the rules of EFT.

 

[Centercut]

I'm pretty sure the whole idea is to level the playing field so that your gun prep, positional stability and wind reading become the only factors, and it doesn't turn into an equipment race, or a race of "how do I skirt the rules enough for it to be to my advantage, and still get away with it..." 

I understand about the hunting comment. The only things I take are a lightweight attached short bipod. And whenever possible, I go prone since for me that is as stable as a bench. 

We want to make it fair and equitable for all. Some older guys can't get prone. Most guys can't go "pretzel". Almost everyone can sit with sticks (bipod), and as Mike N says above, that is arguably the most stable position available if you practice with it... If I could, I'd go prone for the targets I can get to in that position, which at our course are 15 out of the 18 non off-hand targets. But regular FT no longer allows prone because it worked so well, so probably not for EAFT Hunter...

 

[AirNGasman]

To my knowledge, bum-bags have been an integral part of field target from the get-go. And though I've been ALL ABOUT minimizing equipment advantage(s) in order to maintain a level playing field for many years and rules-making/evolution involvements, since bum-bags (specifically) are not an equipment advantage, I feel disallowing them a misguided approach to maintaining a level playing field. 

Does this Neanderthal's bum-bag really look like equipment advantage? Obviously his expensive rifle and scope represent more advantage over his competition than a ground pad.

 

[AirNGasman]

Always a pleasure being a bad influence on you, Scott. Anyone else too, for that matter. Like you say, I'm and very bad man; and work hard to maintain that reputation! 

But don't be coy Bud, it's common-knowledge among FT shooters (and their wives) that they're always looking for an excuse to buy a new rifle. (Or pistol, or scope, or gadget, or gizmo, or... fill in the blanks).

BTW, if you're gonna enter TEXtreme Field Target I'll rethink/reconfigure competitor vetting. I'm already foregoing Alphabet org background checks... so I can compete.

Good to hear from you, Bud. Weather permitting, hope to see you in a couple weeks. 

 

[Exitpupil]

" Let the best man win". Lets shoot it off-hand and skip this auxiliary equipment debate.

 

[AirNGasman]

"Lets shoot it off-hand and skip this auxiliary equipment debate." 

Only problem with that is there won't be enough shooters for a match.

 

[thomasair]

Ron, it’s a slippery slope. Once the high end bum bags show up at a match....there will be little anyone else can do to keep up.

Mike 

 

[AirNGasman]

I see your point Mike. Don't let anyone know I actually use BUCKWHEAT HULLS in mine!