Extreme FT rules and positions

[Centercut]

Appreciate the advice. I’m not as steady yet as prone but working on it. Almost all my shooting since September has been bucket and sticks. Takes practice to get good but so does just about anything you want to get good at. Being steady at 100 yards is much different and more difficult than at 50 yards... I have to be steadier to shoot a 1 inch target at 100 yards than a 1 inch target at 50 yards...

 

[Scotchmo]

.... Being steady at 100 yards is much different and more difficult than at 50 yards...

Target distance has no affect on steadiness.

 

[Franklink]

.... Being steady at 100 yards is much different and more difficult than at 50 yards...

Target distance has no affect on steadiness.

But the wobble is going to have greater effect on pellet impact point as the distance increases. It's the whole minute of angle thing, 800 yards and 1 moa is about 8 inches, 100 yards and 1 moa is only about 1 inch. 

If the end of the barrel is swaying around, say, 1/4 an inch, that'll put all the impact points at 50 yards within, say 1 inch. Same 1/4 inch muzzle sway is going to spray them into a larger sized group further out at say 100 yards. (Theoretical example of course). 

Not sure why you two think you've gotta keep crapping all over anything extreme field target related.

Again, come on down and shoot a match. We're obviously doing it wrong so come show us the right way, in all aspects.

You'll be treated alot more warmly and welcomed much better than you've done to extreme ft-related topics here on the forum. 

You might even have some fun, although from previous debates it seems that's not really the draw of competition for you two. 

(I'm all for welcoming constructive criticism but the passive aggressive attitude towards this is getting old, just like it did a few weeks ago.) 

 

[Scotchmo]

.... Being steady at 100 yards is much different and more difficult than at 50 yards...

Target distance has no affect on steadiness.

But the wobble is going to have greater effect on pellet impact point as the distance increases. It's the whole minute of angle thing, 800 yards and 1 moa is about 8 inches, 100 yards and 1 moa is only about 1 inch. 

If the end of the barrel is swaying around, say, 1/4 an inch, that'll put all the impact points at 50 yards within, say 1 inch. Same 1/4 inch muzzle sway is going to spray them into a larger sized group further out at say 100 yards. (Theoretical example of course). 

Not sure why you two think you've gotta keep crapping all over anything extreme field target related.

Again, come on down and shoot a match. We're obviously doing it wrong so come show us the right way, in all aspects.

You'll be treated alot more warmly and welcomed much better than you've done to extreme ft-related topics here on the forum. 

You might even have some fun, although from previous debates it seems that's not really the draw of competition for you two. 

(I'm all for welcoming constructive criticism but the passive aggressive attitude towards this is getting old, just like it did a few weeks ago.)

"...Not sure why you two think you've gotta keep crapping all over anything extreme field target related...."

My comment had nothing to do with extreme field target. I'm all for extreme field target.

Wobble (angular displacement of the barrel) has nothing to do with target distance. Though, I understand what you are saying, that deviation (angular and absolute) of the projectile trajectory from the target is affected by target distance, but that is not something that the shooter can control, as it's more a function of the equipment and conditions.

I'm not one to add extra words to my posts in an attempt to be diplomatic. When I see a post that is incorrect, I usually just say so. Not being aggressive. It might appear that way when someone feels threatened but that is not my intent. People that know me, know better than to take it that way.

I think all of you, that are putting the effort in order to popularize another type of airgun shooting event, are doing fantastic work. I tend not to comment as much on all the things that you already have right. Please take anything else I say/ask in regards to EFT as "constructive criticism". Keep up the good work. I do hope to be able to participate at some point in the future. - regards, Scott Hull.

 

[thomasair]

I guess you interpret me asking why the near percentage is so low as “crapping” on extreme FT? 

I think it’s a legitimate question since the hold off management for wind is the main factor for missing in aafta FT...and the HP guns have a tremendous advantage in that regard.

I can certainly understand the long misses.

Because someone disagrees with you on what you believe to be the appropriate rules for something...it doesn’t mean they are crapping on EFT. 

Mike 

 

[steve123]

@steve123, just out of curiosity, if you were actually hunting would you go out and tie strings all around the area you were hunting so you would be able to read the wind. This is what is curious to me. Reading the wind in this event is what makes or breaks your score. I totally understand how difficult it is without the mirage but if your hunting and see “said object” to shoot at will you not take the shot because you don’t know what the wind is doing. That’s what makes this event so exciting. Timers, wind, knowing when to shoot and when not to shoot. Waiting until the last second or taking a chance and making your best guess. I like to win, no doubt, but if you have flags out there then it just becomes who can read read them the best. This last month I chose to shoot when the wind was blowing the hardest and I could read a specific direction. Definitely more successful. Some like to wait until more calm. This is what makes it exciting. Everyone has there own preferences and ideas on how and when to shoot. This is what practice and knowing your rifle will help with. I love this event and wouldn’t change a thing. Just my opinion. 

Sandy

Thanks for breaking the ice, Sandy.

For me both FT and EFT has little to do with hunting and almost everything to do with them being shooting games. We top shooters in AZ can get high 30's almost every match even if there is strong and switchy winds and part of that is we're only shooting to 55Y.

In EFT it's dissimilar enough to FT that the winds present at the longer distances are super hard to figure out if the wind is like it was last Saturday. Well the scores proved that point. I'm there to have fun so high hit ratios are what I like. IMO, absolutely it should be the person that reads the wind the best, "flags or not", that deserves the win. Flags are just there to help like in BR, otherwise its very hard to guess where to aim. 

Sure if it's calmish out the hit ratios are higher but the top score of 35 could have been a 40 with a few streamers out on the course helping out. which I think would have been awesome!!!

Our rifles for FT can shoot ragged holes at 55Y so we are well within the KZ, in EFT at 80Y, 90Y, and 100Y our best guns are around half the size of the KZ so there's that. Also our flyers are 1/2" at 55Y in FT but our flyers in EFT on the medium sized targets at the longer distances are large enough that we can stay just inside the KZ if we have perfect elevation and get the wind perfectly. It's hard to be perfect! 

I guess what I'm saying is that it's disproportionally harder in EFT compared to FT. I have a lot more fun if they are all falling but a few! Not so much if it's 50%.

 

[steve123]

I still have quite a bit learning to do off the sticks. If I sit too low my legs push on my gut, then my gut gets pushed into my diaphram, so it's hard to breath and uncomfortable, but on a regular 5 gallon bucket I'm too high and just as unsteady in a different way. Gonna have to investigate the best height for my body, and try what you suggested Mike N. Thanks.

 

[Uglyjohn]

Steve I shoot HFT(US) and most of what I know about the seat height / bipod relationship came from an old Motorhead post on yellow. Seat height is critical in getting a comfortable, repeatable and stable shooting “stance”. A seat that is an inch or 2 too high or low makes the process more difficult than it should be. Many of us experiment by cutting buckets down a bit at a time to find a height that works. Hopefully Scott will chime in here to add more detail to this explanation. Uj

 

[Flintsack]

I had thought in EBR, and regular stick and buckets field target competition, that a regular field target bag could be used. Is that correct?

That is the exact set up I used for years to hunt mule deer, long before I started field target shooting. I used a very short set of sticks. I actually had a couple different sets that were all in similar lengths within an inch or two of one another. Anyway, your ability to wrap yourself up in the sticks sitting on the bag is incredible. It’s very close to being on a bench rest.

I was told it was OK as long as your feet were flat on the ground. Was planning to try it this year with my red wolf.

hey uj.
mike

 

[Sturkis]

Any one have a 3 gallon bucket for Steve123?

 

[bluebaby]

Your welcome steve@123. I wasn’t trying to aim anything directly at you. You asked if anyone else wished there were flags out there and personally I don’t. No one else really answered your question.

In regards to @thomasair’s question about the misses at close range, after pondering this for a day it dawned on me why I think I miss the close ones more than usual. Firstly, we are limited by 25 power scopes. This makes it slightly more difficult to see your misses if you can see them. Secondly, and mostly IMO the way the paddles are painted it is very difficult to see where you hit on the paddle. You may be barely in and knocking it down and the next shot could end up being a miss/split and you would never know it. As the targets get more and more shot up it is pretty much impossible to see your misses. So it is difficult for to make corrections based on a miss or a hit for that matter. I’m not sure if the paddle painting is intentionally done that way to add to the difficulty or if it is just that way. In EBR it seemed like it was like that as well. 

Thanks Mike for the tips on shooting from a bucket. I appreciate your knowledge sharing. I have a couple new items to get for myself that will hopefully improve my shooting. Just FYI, I shoot from a bumbag in FT with a harness. Very steady. I tried shooting (IFP) from sticks and my bumbag (no harness) and from the short stool same way and scored 2 points better from the short stool. I really thought I would do better from the bumbag. That being said I do believe that if I practiced it more it may be steadier. All very interesting to say the least.....

 

[steve123]

Steve I shoot HFT(US) and most of what I know about the seat height / bipod relationship came from an old Motorhead post on yellow. Seat height is critical in getting a comfortable, repeatable and stable shooting “stance”. A seat that is an inch or 2 too high or low makes the process more difficult than it should be. Many of us experiment by cutting buckets down a bit at a time to find a height that works. Hopefully Scott will chime in here to add more detail to this explanation. Uj

Good idea cutting a bucket down. thanks UJ.

 

[steve123]

Any one have a 3 gallon bucket for Steve123?

Ha, when I shot with you and used your bucket I had to put my bum bag on it and I still had to adjust the sticks down a bit! Short torso....

 

[thomasair]

Sandy...try this one out from your bag. My 11 year old daughter learned this position with sticks in less than an hour and knocked down a 3/8 kz at 30y with a pistol 11 times in a row. She also had streaks of 9-10 a couple times as well in the same shooting session. Stability was not a problem for her at all. Mike Schultz is the other pic. He was a brand new FT shooter and won the PA cup in Hunter on his second match. For those that don’t attend the PA cup...it’s usually a 100 plus shooter event with the best the eastern half of the country in attendance. He also won the pistol class at Nationals and that was his 3rd match. He’s a very talented 25m BR shooter (multi national champ) and he knew the wind...so simply finding a position he could be steady with immediately put him at at the top. This same position can be adopted from a taller seat as well...but you are going to have to lean over more. That can cause difficulty in finding targets until you get used to it.

I’ve said this before, and it’s apparently irritating to some....but getting rock steady with sticks does not require a lot of practice....but it may require a lot of initial experimentation to find what will work for the individual. My advice is to not settle for a shaky position and hope to fix it with practice. Take the time up front and just try everything.

Mike

 

[thomasair]

Btw...Mike is not shouldering the gun. The grip is resting on his knee. Clearly Olivia is also not shouldering because there is no buttstock on her pistol. There is a million variations on this position. Some will find that placing the butt of the gun on the rear knee or in the crook of their right arm that is resting on the knee will be more comfortable.

Mike 

 

[bluebaby]

Thanks Mike. Will definitely play with these ideas and positions. 

 

[Centercut]

Are Slings allowed in EFT as they are in Hunter FT?

 

[Uglyjohn]

Slings with 2 point attachment are legal in hunter class. Uj

 

[Flintsack]

If the name of the sport actually has the words field target in it, and if 2/3 of the words are field and target…

It seems absolutely absurd to me that there’s only one class and it doesn’t allow the use of a bum bag.

Field targets and bum bags go together.

My understanding from talking to Robert years ago, was that this portion of the original AoA event was put together so that the old-timers could have fun shooting from a bucket with sticks. And they wouldn’t be able to get down onto a bum bag. Those days are long past. People are flying in from all over the world to compete. 

Why in the world would you not allow a bum bag? I’ve seen all kinds of buckets. Buckets on wheels, buckets with pads, buckets with thick cushions, adjustable buckets. There should be one class and you should choose what you want to sit on.

You can call it a form of field target if you want. I just don’t understand at all why there are no offhand shots. I thought this was extreme? By far the most difficult shots in field target are the offhand…You have to hit them to win.

Usually if you look at the foundation or the roots of how something is formed, you will find out why the rules are in place as they are. Quite often, when you figure it out, everyone realizes that the original rules make no sense. This game has evolved, If it wants to become a big deal, which I think would be cool, the rules should catch up with the shooters.

You can see this every day in the business world. Or in healthcare, or in the military, or the police.

mike

 

[Centercut]

Mike, who said bum bags weren’t allowed in EFT? It had been discussed when we were all formulating the rules for this relatively new sport. The photos above posted by @thomasair are totally legal in EFT. The only rule that I know is you can sit however you want as long as the soles of both feet are in contact with the ground. High seat, low seat, bum bag seat, doesn’t matter.

It does take a while to find what works best for you, and then more time getting used to holding steady in your chosen position, but they all can be used. You don’t even have to use sticks if you don’t feel it assists you. Sit down on any seat (no back rest) at any height, both feet on the ground and you’re good to go.

The EFT shot at EBR is slightly different. You can use any position. Prone, sitting, upside down, whatever. But I’ll tell you that they set up their course so that only a small percentage of targets are accessible from prone or low pretzel, and normally none of the further targets can be hit from a low position. And that’s intentional. So by target positioning they mandate a bucket and sticks position. There is no “must be at least 15 inches high ” or any of that AAFTA administrivia.

EFT is simple. 100 FPE limit. Pellets or Slugs. Scope limit 25x. No attached bipod. No tripod. No rear rest on your seat. The above discussed seating position. Less than 1/2 page, not a book. 
PS., all the EFTs I’ve shot at Phoenix Rod and Gun had one lane off hand. Four shots two targets. The last time I shot there we were allowed to shoot two of the four kneeling. I’m in the minority in my opinion that there should be no off hand lanes. When the winning scores are usually 26 to 30 of 40 there is no need to make it any harder. For the hard core FT shooters that think they need the off hand to make it harder I’d replace the off hand lane with an “Extreme” lane. A 3 inch KZ at 125 yards and a 1 inch KZ at 75 yards. Most definitely Extreme!