Extreme FT rules and positions
- Thread starter Centercut
- Start date
Wouldn't be an argument here if there wasn't a handful of folks that think that bum bag helps them out. (I feel ya fellas, I'm one of them.)
Completely objectively, when filled with the correct amount of an appropriate media, the bum bag creates a "nest" for the rear end. That bowl in which the bum resides, provides support, plain and simple. And I say that from the perspective of spending a lot of time sitting in one. Again, if it was a DISadvantage, this debate would not be occuring.
I would actually prefer a bumbag myself, but Extreme Field Target isn't about seeing how many classes we can create to cater to all of these attempts to get ahead, it's about everyone shooting on a level playing field. And THAT is the beauty of this competition: want to win? want to get ahead of the competition? Go practice cuz that's the only way to do so.
If anyone interested spends time shooting and practicing and figuring out what combo of barrel and pellet and speed and etc (and how to live within the rules) they won't be any less or more advantaged than every other competitor.
The winner will be determined by dedication and skill, not equipment.
Completely objectively, when filled with the correct amount of an appropriate media, the bum bag creates a "nest" for the rear end. That bowl in which the bum resides, provides support, plain and simple. And I say that from the perspective of spending a lot of time sitting in one. Again, if it was a DISadvantage, this debate would not be occuring.
I would actually prefer a bumbag myself, but Extreme Field Target isn't about seeing how many classes we can create to cater to all of these attempts to get ahead, it's about everyone shooting on a level playing field. And THAT is the beauty of this competition: want to win? want to get ahead of the competition? Go practice cuz that's the only way to do so.
If anyone interested spends time shooting and practicing and figuring out what combo of barrel and pellet and speed and etc (and how to live within the rules) they won't be any less or more advantaged than every other competitor.
The winner will be determined by dedication and skill, not equipment.
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"The winner will be determined by skill not equipment". LOL I am watching this thread with interest. I am all for a level playing field with minimal equipment costs. I do however think it naïve to think that shooting accurately at "EXTREME" distances with pellet guns will not turn into an equipment race. Competition always breeds that. Custom barrels, special twist rates, pumped up power modifications, multiple regulators, one-off Corbin dies swaging ammo not readily available to the general masses, factory sponsorship, range finders with programed in doping, access to longer distances to practice, and the list is never ending. I see a lot of very expensive rigs in FT, but I don't see only the richest shooters on the podium. I think the expensive FT rigs for many reflect the dedication and passion one feels for their hobby sport. If bumbags were such an advantage they would be in all shooting sports. I shoot off one because it is standard equipment in my chosen FT class. At age 65 it really is painful and somewhat difficult to shoot off of and I would not choose a bumbag for EFT assuming all other equipment could be equal. Experimenting, I found I could hold competitive groups using bucket and sticks in about 15 minutes of practice, the bumbag took 2 years.
Having said that, I think specifying one set of rules and sticking with it is a key principle and eliminates a lot of bickering and wasted spending $$$$. The beauty in starting with a clean slate building a new sport -clear, fair, simple rules that favor the masses will go a long way to the growth and success in this sport. The more people that enjoy shooting sports the more it strengthens our community.
Having said that, I think specifying one set of rules and sticking with it is a key principle and eliminates a lot of bickering and wasted spending $$$$. The beauty in starting with a clean slate building a new sport -clear, fair, simple rules that favor the masses will go a long way to the growth and success in this sport. The more people that enjoy shooting sports the more it strengthens our community.
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So - targets are shot at known distances, from the same designated shooting position for everyone, using required seat and supports.
That sounds more like the skills needed for a benchrest competition, not necessarily for hunting or field target.
Bench-rest vs Extreme-Field-Target
No-range-finding vs no-range-finding
Sitting-on-a-seat vs sitting-on-a-seat
required-resting-on-bench vs required-resting-on-sticks
I just tested my HP .22 benchrest gun in my normal FT position. It's a long, heavy rifle, so it was somewhat unwieldy. It was definitely better to use sticks with this gun, so that's what I would do anyway should I get a chance to shoot some "EFT".
We don't need to spend as much time working on our shooting positions or fitness when we all shoot from a seat with sticks, and we won't really need to spend time developing ranging skills, so we'll probably just spend more time and money on our guns. I've already spent more on my benchrest gun than I ever have on my FT rifles, and it's still not good enough. EFT will be an equipment race, just as much as benchrest is.
That sounds more like the skills needed for a benchrest competition, not necessarily for hunting or field target.
Bench-rest vs Extreme-Field-Target
No-range-finding vs no-range-finding
Sitting-on-a-seat vs sitting-on-a-seat
required-resting-on-bench vs required-resting-on-sticks
I just tested my HP .22 benchrest gun in my normal FT position. It's a long, heavy rifle, so it was somewhat unwieldy. It was definitely better to use sticks with this gun, so that's what I would do anyway should I get a chance to shoot some "EFT".
We don't need to spend as much time working on our shooting positions or fitness when we all shoot from a seat with sticks, and we won't really need to spend time developing ranging skills, so we'll probably just spend more time and money on our guns. I've already spent more on my benchrest gun than I ever have on my FT rifles, and it's still not good enough. EFT will be an equipment race, just as much as benchrest is.
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I just thought of something, Ben better set a rule of how thick a pad can be on a bucket or seat.
Hey I thought of a good idea, I think I'll go get some 2 part foam and mold it to my ass
Hey I thought of a good idea, I think I'll go get some 2 part foam and mold it to my ass
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Appreciate the input Scott and Will. We need that to get everything settled as we grow this sport. All input is welcome, good, bad or indifferent.
I know I’m a Newby in FT, but for the life of me I still can’t figure out what range finding with your scope focus has to do with marksmanship? I’ve heard various reasons explained by numerous very good shooters but I’m still not buying any of them. As anyone that hunts with air rifles past the chip shot distance of 55 yards will tell you, no laser rangefinder no kill. Especially once you get out past 80 or 100 yards.
I’ve only shot a few FT matches Hunter Class and a few EFT matches, and they seem pretty darn similar to me... and everyone else that has shot them says the same. The only difference I could discern was higher powered guns, ranges from 25 to 100 yards, and the distance given (or ranged with your own rangefinder, your choice).
I know I’m a Newby in FT, but for the life of me I still can’t figure out what range finding with your scope focus has to do with marksmanship? I’ve heard various reasons explained by numerous very good shooters but I’m still not buying any of them. As anyone that hunts with air rifles past the chip shot distance of 55 yards will tell you, no laser rangefinder no kill. Especially once you get out past 80 or 100 yards.
I’ve only shot a few FT matches Hunter Class and a few EFT matches, and they seem pretty darn similar to me... and everyone else that has shot them says the same. The only difference I could discern was higher powered guns, ranges from 25 to 100 yards, and the distance given (or ranged with your own rangefinder, your choice).
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Seems to me if you want to do a "level playing field" and all things being equal then the same rifle configuration and ammo has to be used by all those competing correct? Kinda takes the fun out of it but this is what would need to be done to keep it "level" from what I keep seeing.
Brian
Brian
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"...I still can’t figure out what range finding with your scope focus has to do with marksmanship?..."
Not marksmanship per se, but range finding is something that you need to do to hit your FT target or your prey while hunting. If someone gives you the distance, you just removed one aspect that might be required for a successful kill. Whether it's via eyeballing, focusing, bracketing, or laser - it's a necessary step to be successful in either FT or hunting.
"...I’ve only shot a few FT matches Hunter Class and a few EFT matches, and they seem pretty darn similar to me…"
You are REQUIRED to use a bucket and sticks in EFT. If that's how you shoot in FT, then of course it seems similar. Most people don't use a bucket and sticks so for them it is not similar to FT. The difference is that FT (at least it's supposed to be) and hunting are "free position" endeavors where the distance is not otherwise known. EFT is a designated position sport at known distances.
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The level playing field has been sought after unsuccessfully in many sports and even many countries in their political system.
The USARB put a factory class into effect after so many complained how they couldn’t be competitive in the current classes. This was going to finally level the playing field and bring equality to the masses. Even the guys that were screaming for it quit within a few months because their scores sucked and it wasn’t any fun shooting 700s while everyone else was shooting in the 740s.
The ARA is the most successful rimfire BR organization by far because of one simple fact. They only have an unlimited class. Instead of all kinds of rules to keep it all even...there are basically no rules except you have to shoot a 22LR cartridge. It has sorted itself all out and the same guys that won in the big rules classes still win in the no rules class.
The difference is massive participation instead of meager participation.
Wouldnt bother me if AAFTA ran only an unlimited class. The main problem is that FT already has a worldwide following and it’s not an unlimited game.
Make unlimited FT with a 12fpe limit and it could fly. The guys that want to play the world game could still get practice...while the rest could happily shoot alongside using their own set of shooting aids according to their own choice.
The biggest problem that you cannot level out is the rifle. Equal shooters with better equipment will always prevail in the long run.
It will be interesting to see if other clubs will follow suit. The investment in targets alone is an order of magnitude greater or more than regular ft. The time, effort, and location are also a challenge.
Will be neat to see where this is at in a year from now. If you can get club level participation across the country and a common organization...it may go.
Mike
The USARB put a factory class into effect after so many complained how they couldn’t be competitive in the current classes. This was going to finally level the playing field and bring equality to the masses. Even the guys that were screaming for it quit within a few months because their scores sucked and it wasn’t any fun shooting 700s while everyone else was shooting in the 740s.
The ARA is the most successful rimfire BR organization by far because of one simple fact. They only have an unlimited class. Instead of all kinds of rules to keep it all even...there are basically no rules except you have to shoot a 22LR cartridge. It has sorted itself all out and the same guys that won in the big rules classes still win in the no rules class.
The difference is massive participation instead of meager participation.
Wouldnt bother me if AAFTA ran only an unlimited class. The main problem is that FT already has a worldwide following and it’s not an unlimited game.
Make unlimited FT with a 12fpe limit and it could fly. The guys that want to play the world game could still get practice...while the rest could happily shoot alongside using their own set of shooting aids according to their own choice.
The biggest problem that you cannot level out is the rifle. Equal shooters with better equipment will always prevail in the long run.
It will be interesting to see if other clubs will follow suit. The investment in targets alone is an order of magnitude greater or more than regular ft. The time, effort, and location are also a challenge.
Will be neat to see where this is at in a year from now. If you can get club level participation across the country and a common organization...it may go.
Mike
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Scott, Gotcha. And estimating up to 55 or even 60 yards is feasible. My point is that no one can estimate the difference by eyeball between 95 and 100 yards - well, maybe Superman? But if you estimate 100 and it’s 95 you just missed. At longer ranges a laser rangefinder is a necessity, not an option.
I shot in the AZ State FT at Mormon Lake and all the Hunter Class shot bucket and sticks. The winner at the CA State FT at Morro Bay shot bucket and sticks. In my very limited experience most Hunter shoot bucket and sticks. 3rd and 4th at Morro Bay also shot bucket and sticks. Maybe once I see and shoot more tournaments I’ll see more different positions.
I shot in the AZ State FT at Mormon Lake and all the Hunter Class shot bucket and sticks. The winner at the CA State FT at Morro Bay shot bucket and sticks. In my very limited experience most Hunter shoot bucket and sticks. 3rd and 4th at Morro Bay also shot bucket and sticks. Maybe once I see and shoot more tournaments I’ll see more different positions.
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FWIW I wouldn't turn away participants because of their equipment. If you really want to grow this then leave it open as much as possible within reason. What's within reason that is the question. AAAFTA field target events don't have thousands lined up to attend matches. You may find out there are not as many wanting to get into EFT as you would like and by putting restrictions you may lose some that would have at least given it a chance. If this takes off you may need to make adjustments later on.
Brian
Brian
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I'm liking all the input and discussion this has generated but man o man this is much more simple than this discussion would suggest.
@thomasair, I agree 100% that being steady from sticks requires some time spent shooting from them.
@scotchmo, I've had little practice sessions in the last two evenings and gotta beg to differ here. Shooting from sticks is not like shooting from a bench, nor can the technique be mastered in one day.
To everyone, it's gonna take some practice folks, and if anybody disagrees than come on down without any practice and we'll all see how it goes for you.
The distances involved require some serious wind-reading abilities, which is an acquired skill that only comes from shooting in the wind. Each competitor needs to know their setup: how far does a 10mph gust push my pellet @75 yards, how far does it get pushed at 100 yards?
The rules are being fleshed out so that any competetive gaps between participants are due to their individual levels of practice and dedication, not by how much they spent on their rig or how creative they are in their interpretation of the rules, or how specialized their equipment is.
- Pic a gun and set it up for 100fpe max (caliber, barrel, pellet/slug, etc, Ben said projectiles must be mass-produced and available to purchase as a retail item)
- Pic a scope (can be capable of more than 25x but will be limited to 25x in competition)
- PRACTICE (from "bucket and sticks" position, which seems to need to be further clarified as minimum seat height of 8 inches, butt on seat, feet on ground, gun in yoke of shooting sticks, which already had to be further clarified that the saddle of the shooting sticks can't be square bottomed or clamp the gun)
- Show up to shoot/compete
- Get humbled, REAL quick
@thomasair, I agree 100% that being steady from sticks requires some time spent shooting from them.
@scotchmo, I've had little practice sessions in the last two evenings and gotta beg to differ here. Shooting from sticks is not like shooting from a bench, nor can the technique be mastered in one day.
To everyone, it's gonna take some practice folks, and if anybody disagrees than come on down without any practice and we'll all see how it goes for you.
The distances involved require some serious wind-reading abilities, which is an acquired skill that only comes from shooting in the wind. Each competitor needs to know their setup: how far does a 10mph gust push my pellet @75 yards, how far does it get pushed at 100 yards?
The rules are being fleshed out so that any competetive gaps between participants are due to their individual levels of practice and dedication, not by how much they spent on their rig or how creative they are in their interpretation of the rules, or how specialized their equipment is.
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It has been enlightening and entertaining to be a part of this discussion. If nothing else, all of the comments illustrate the long-standing tradition within regular field target of warping and twisting the rules and their interpretation into whatever we want them to be. Regular FT shooters read AAFTA rules LOOKING for ways to get an edge. Ive been involved for about four years and it is very evident to me that this rule-bending is simply part of the sport, and has been for a very long time. And I'm not really sure that that's a positive aspect of field target.
The creation of Extreme Field Target has to be credited to Robert Buchanan and Airguns of Arizona, but this new venture of having monthly instead of yearly matches, coupled with the input-receptive stance the guy putting in all the work (Ben) has taken, well this gives us a very unique opportunity to do away with many and perhaps all of the negative aspects of regular field target. We can take this chance to suggest and vote on rules that will avoid the equipment races, that will give a guy shooting a .25 Marauder the same chance to win as a guy shooting a Daystate Redwolf or an FX impact We have the chance to get away from literally needing buggies and carts to haul all the "necessary" accoutrements from one lane to the next. We have the opportunity here to be inclusive to people that simply don't (and will never) have $5-10,000 for the WFTF gun, scope, shooting jacket combo. And when I say inclusive I'm not meaning just being tolerant of them hanging around, knowing they'll never be amongst the highest scorers. These rules put everyone on an equal footing. That guy with the $300 scope has just as good of a chance of winning as the guy with the $4500 scope. That middle aged dude whose belly suggests that he likes Dr Pepper a little too much (I'm quickly becoming that guy) doesn't have to figure out how to get his knees above his shoulders while still keeping his labored breathing from ruining everything, AND he still just might win, beer/Dr Pepper belly and all.
Not to get too political, but this is still America, and this is Extreme American Field Target. Some may argue that it is quickly dying, but the American dream has always been the promise of setting ourselves apart, of being successful, through hard work and dedication. If you want to do well in EFT please do so by putting in the time and effort and gaining the experience and knowledge necessary versus hunting down loopholes in the rules and/or buying your way to the top. Let's please take that mindset with this fun, relatively inconsequential competition we call Extreme Field Target.
The creation of Extreme Field Target has to be credited to Robert Buchanan and Airguns of Arizona, but this new venture of having monthly instead of yearly matches, coupled with the input-receptive stance the guy putting in all the work (Ben) has taken, well this gives us a very unique opportunity to do away with many and perhaps all of the negative aspects of regular field target. We can take this chance to suggest and vote on rules that will avoid the equipment races, that will give a guy shooting a .25 Marauder the same chance to win as a guy shooting a Daystate Redwolf or an FX impact We have the chance to get away from literally needing buggies and carts to haul all the "necessary" accoutrements from one lane to the next. We have the opportunity here to be inclusive to people that simply don't (and will never) have $5-10,000 for the WFTF gun, scope, shooting jacket combo. And when I say inclusive I'm not meaning just being tolerant of them hanging around, knowing they'll never be amongst the highest scorers. These rules put everyone on an equal footing. That guy with the $300 scope has just as good of a chance of winning as the guy with the $4500 scope. That middle aged dude whose belly suggests that he likes Dr Pepper a little too much (I'm quickly becoming that guy) doesn't have to figure out how to get his knees above his shoulders while still keeping his labored breathing from ruining everything, AND he still just might win, beer/Dr Pepper belly and all.
Not to get too political, but this is still America, and this is Extreme American Field Target. Some may argue that it is quickly dying, but the American dream has always been the promise of setting ourselves apart, of being successful, through hard work and dedication. If you want to do well in EFT please do so by putting in the time and effort and gaining the experience and knowledge necessary versus hunting down loopholes in the rules and/or buying your way to the top. Let's please take that mindset with this fun, relatively inconsequential competition we call Extreme Field Target.
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I think you’re blowing things way out of proportion. I go to lots of FT GP matches all around the country and don’t hear anyone crying foul. Matter of fact they are quite peaceful and fun to attend....every time. Haven’t run into anyone yet that makes it out to be the illness that you apparently have the cure for.
Everyone that wins does so because they put in the most work. That’s a foreign concept to some, and they always want to point to equipment as the reason. FT shooters are proud of their equipment as it’s often a reflection of the effort they put into the sport.
Do what you want with your AOA game, but don’t disparage AAFTA with nonsense about all this rampant rule breaking...making it sound corrupt.
Mike
Everyone that wins does so because they put in the most work. That’s a foreign concept to some, and they always want to point to equipment as the reason. FT shooters are proud of their equipment as it’s often a reflection of the effort they put into the sport.
Do what you want with your AOA game, but don’t disparage AAFTA with nonsense about all this rampant rule breaking...making it sound corrupt.
Mike
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"...My point is that no one can estimate the difference by eyeball between 95 and 100 yards..." There are other ways to estimate range. If the EFT rules allow lasers, then don't give the distance. Make it more like hunting where you actually need to do it yourself. These days, range finders that work well from 25-200yds are cheap to buy. You still need to learn to use it correctly. Use the scope for closer targets if you want and the laser for far targets.
"...The winner at the CA State FT at Morro Bay shot bucket and sticks...." The winner (Bill Corder) did not use bucket or sticks. The high score in "Hunter" used sticks as that is the only support aid allowed in Hunter Division.
I have won National matches and State matches using bucket and sticks in Hunter Division. Using them never hurt my scores. I think they should be allowed as some people need them to be competitive. Some people don't need them. I'm glad that they are allowed in EFT but it's strange that they are required. You might be alienating 1/2 the FT shooters that don't use them.
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I really like what Will Piatt says above. It pretty much says what we’ve been thinking... Thanks Will.
Scotchmo
Scott, we were talking Hunter Class remember? So yes, Hunter Class winner and top 3 of 4 shot bucket and sticks. I thought that’s what this entire conversation has been about? At least that’s what Cole and I have been discussing..
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Oh goodness.
Yes I agree on most your points.
Yes I agree on most your points.
- I've had fun at every FT match that I've attended.
- Nobody cries foul cuz everyone is used to it just being how it is
- Yep, peaceful
- Yep again, fun to attend
- Also agree that regular FT isn't an illness
- EFT isn't the "cure" for regular FT (I'm just saying that it has the potential to be DIFFERENT, in a good way, for many many people who can't afford to pay the price of admission to be competitive in regular FT)
- Don't agree with you on the equipment stance. I win, often, at the matches I attend, WHEN I use my high end rig. I enjoy FT and will continue to shoot it. I enjoy it enough to shoot various guns at matches, knowing that it decreases my chances of winning. In the past 18 months I've shot two different brands of springers and at least 6 different brands of PCPs at matches. I don't win consistently when I'm not using my most expensive scope and my most expensive gun. Even if I spend bunches of time with a gun/scope, if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg, it isn't going to consistently win matches like my high-dollar rig. Some of that is the gun, but alot of that is the range by focus aspect.
- The shooter has to do his/her part, but when they're starting at disadvantage (in a sport that the rules favor big spending) they've got a long ways to go to even break even with a mediocre shooter using an exceptional gun like one of your Thomas's.
- I never said there was rule-breaking. Rule bending there very much is though.
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Well, I hate to follow up on Mike's mic drop, but I have a couple of questions.
Question 1: So I can't rest my hand on the shooting sticks and rest the gun on my hand?
Question 2 (for the Caveman): Am I going to have to go to Home Dee-Pot and buy a bucket, or are you going to let me sit on my cheatin' cushion at your match?
And for Mike: I have seen cheating at many FT matches (many = 2 or 3). I was always the offender and I always turned myself in when I realized that what I was doing was illegal. I can't believe these guys still let me shoot down here, but I suspect it has something to do with all of the photos floating around of my butt crack hanging out while shooting (and cheating).
Question 1: So I can't rest my hand on the shooting sticks and rest the gun on my hand?
Question 2 (for the Caveman): Am I going to have to go to Home Dee-Pot and buy a bucket, or are you going to let me sit on my cheatin' cushion at your match?
And for Mike: I have seen cheating at many FT matches (many = 2 or 3). I was always the offender and I always turned myself in when I realized that what I was doing was illegal. I can't believe these guys still let me shoot down here, but I suspect it has something to do with all of the photos floating around of my butt crack hanging out while shooting (and cheating).
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I've got a Benjamin Discovery you can borrow for your next Grand Prix. Long term borrow so that you put in lots of work with it.
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I don't think half of the FT shooters are going to build and shoot from a platform from the pretzel so that they're following the rules of a minimum seat height of 8 inches.
The elephant in the room, that has been alluded to extensively here, is the pretzel position. I've tried it and it is very very stable. And it should be, resting the gun across both thighs supports the gun at least as much and perhaps more than prone. You're not blatantly breaking any rules of regular field target but you have found a position that gives you an advantage. And the mere discussion of an off-shoot of traditional field target where your advantage isn't allowed is the problem. I do not know if the concern is because you two are considering participating in Extreme FT or if this idea of a more definitive wording of the rules troubles you for other reasons.
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