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Extreme FT rules and positions

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Thanks, Ron.

Here's a personal history lesson that might help explain why I have a weird dislike for buckets. When I first got into FT, my intention was to use it as practice for precision rifle shooting.

So I bought a Marauder, put a half-decent scope on it, got my prone mat and attached bipod and I was ready to go. A week before my first match, AAFTA decided that attached bipods were the devil because someone kept winning with them (I'm not going to out him, but he's in this thread). It seems that a bunch of the hunter class decision makers could not lie on their bellies without their feet sticking up in the air, so they said "Let them eat buckets". This was a huge bummer, but I came to enjoy shooting the different divisions and life moved on.

Fast forward to now. Some great and awesome guys decide to throw off the shackles of AAFTA tyranny and start a new FT game with longer ranges, bigger foot/pounds (feet/pounds?) and practical equipment requirements. As I'm listening to the choir singing hallelujah, I read this, "Oh, and by the way, you gotta sit on buckets". It feels like Lucy has ripped the football out from under me yet again.

So I guess my issue isn't with buckets (although they are terrible and I hate them). My issue is with being told what to do with my butt.

And I'll add: This discussion is 1000% more civil than the fights we used to have about hunter class rules on the old yellow forum.
 
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My vote will be to keep it standardized. And that's coming from a guy who shoots Open class in regular field target. 

We're already talking about a relatively small amount of people with interest and within driving distance of any place that might want to put on a match. Start slicing and dicing that 20? or so shooters and we'll end up with one or two or three competitors in each class, like sometimes happens In regular field target. "How'd you do at the match?" " Oh I was first place out of 1 person in my class." Kinda lame. 


 
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Maybe an Open Unlimited Class where anything goes up to 100 FPE, and a “standard EAFT” Class for those that want to standardize the sport so that it’s consistent across the USA?

Standard Class - Bucket/Stool and sticks.

Open/Unlimited Class - anything including bum bags, girdles, platforms, prone, whatever works.
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Are there any published rules for what's allowed in "Extreme Field Target"?. I did see a mention of 25x for scopes. And there has been plenty of discussion here about how the competitors are allowed to hold the rifles, but not much about any gun restrictions. I read somewhere that it will be similar to NRL22 airgun requirements.

What I read about 22NRL for Air Rifle:

"If the shooter chooses to use domed pellets the Air Rifle must be a .30 caliber or lower. If the shooter chooses to use slugs, the Air Rifle must be a .25 caliber or lower and the slugs must weigh 45 grains or less. Tethered tanks are not allowed. Projectiles must be mass produced."


 
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So I bought a Marauder, put a half-decent scope on it, got my prone mat and attached bipod and I was ready to go. A week before my first match, AAFTA decided that attached bipods were the devil because someone kept winning with them (I'm not going to out him, but he's in this thread). It seems that a bunch of the hunter class decision makers could not lie on their bellies without their feet sticking up in the air, so they said "Let them eat buckets". This was a huge bummer, but I came to enjoy shooting the different divisions and life moved on.
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Many of the Hunter Division shooters (myself, Dan Jones, Sean Holbeche, Doug Witkowski, et al.) at the 2013 Nationals shot prone with attached bipods. It was very competitive. It took a lot of work to get to the point where I could beat them. Many of them were not going to change when the rules changed, so unfortunately, Hunter division lost a portion of the competitive spirit after that. I wasn't tied to shooting prone, but I could appreciate the prone advantages and shortcomings. I too abandoned the prone position after the push-back, but I kept shooting FT, though maybe not with the same enthusiasm.
 
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Wow... a lot of discussion off topic here so I feel compelled to donate my $0.02.

I'm really curious when the vote occurred about mandatory sticks and buckets over 8". Can't remember it, myself .

Anyone who knows me are aware of my animosity toward gadgetry to up their scores.... rather than practice and training. From that standpoint ... I'm curious how shooting with LESS gadgetry is outside the intent or spirit of the game. The EBR American FT has no such rules. Mike N and Scotchmo have both put a great amount of time perfecting their game with less, now... just for instance . I, For one, admire the effort and dedication to get where they are. I fail to see where NOT using a bipod or bucket is an advantage. Try it yourself ....

I fully realize the intent to put everyone on a completely even competitive level but ... as has already been pointed out... can't fully be done. The message you're sending here is that practice and training won't be allowed because it gives you an unfair advantage .... WTH?

Seems to me that simpler is always be better.... especially if you consider that this was intended to be a sort of training GAME for hunting.


 
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100 FPE, slugs or pellets. Must be commercially available ammo. Scope 25X limit (can be variable that goes higher, but must be set to 25X or the next lowest setting if 25X not marked.). That's it, even more lenient that NRL-22.
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I like that as I've been working towards a 100fpe slug shooter.

Seems like most of the proposed rules apply to how we will shoot, with very few gun restrictions. That's a recipe for an equipment race. I don't think that's a bad thing in itself. I like working on my gun projects even more than working on my shooting positions, so I'm now getting a little more enthused about EFT.
 
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I fully realize the intent to put everyone on a completely even competitive level but ... as has already been pointed out... can't fully be done. The message you're sending here is that practice and training won't be allowed because it gives you an unfair advantage .... WTH?

Seems to me that simpler is always be better.... especially if you consider that this was intended to be a sort of training GAME for hunting.

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Hey Bobby, good to get your input. 

I've said a bunch of times throughout all this that practice and training are the ONLY way to get ahead. 

I was told about the 8 inch min seat height and sticks required by Ben. If that is the only accepted position, than the point I have been trying to make is that everyone should be shooting from that position, not trying to parse through the wording to get to shoot from a different position. 

If that's the required position than we all need to practice and train from that position to get better. 
 
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Scott, great, I'm sure we'd all love to have you in EAFT. Someone that's won FT as much as you have would give it even more credibility. I'm a fence sitter on the position. By that I mean either everyone shoots the same (and I have been arguing for that) , or, we shoot as we see fit. 

But please, no silly rules about targets having to be XX inches high and if in your position you can't see the target because its too low or because of scrub brush or whatever, then you need to change your position for that target(s). Bobby mentioned EBR EAFT, and that's the way it is there. Many of the targets can't been seen from prone or sitting on the ground - more than half. So we all need to decide, do we make it equitable position for everyone, or do we allow any position desired? Right now we are moving in the "everyone shoots from the same position".

I'd ask if other than bucket and sticks are allowed, what are the limits? One piece of gear? Two? A bum bag is gear, an attached short bipod is gear... So if we say one piece allowed in any position, I'll shoot prone... IF someone wants to shoot sitting on the ground and the bum bag is their piece of kit, then that's good also. 

This can get really complicated when the initial intention was SIMPLE, CONSISTENT and FAIR.

Also remember, this isn't AAFTA Field Target. We do not need to carry forward rules that have been implemented into the AAFTA rules due to prejudice or politics.
 
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I get what the intent of the statement is but I just looked through the rules provided at the last match and no mention was made of MANDATORY use of bucket or stool. It specifically says ANY SEAT without a back support.

My argument is that anything less complicated that falls under the MAXIMUMS should be allowed.... including the ground . Maybe a support of the the gluteus maximus only statement ? It does state that rifle cannot be supported by the seat.

While it IS a worthy idea to TRY to homogenize everything under one rule, nobody is the same physically... so how does that work? To penalize someone that's trying to shoot better, more simply, isn't my idea of a fair match.

Btw... I feel the sticks and stool are an advantage ... and I prefer them for myself... just don't like the FORCED aspect of this debate.

I still go back to..... when did we vote on this?

Bob
 
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My vote will be to keep it standardized. And that's coming from a guy who shoots Open class in regular field target. 

We're already talking about a relatively small amount of people with interest and within driving distance of any place that might want to put on a match. Start slicing and dicing that 20? or so shooters and we'll end up with one or two or three competitors in each class, like sometimes happens In regular field target. "How'd you do at the match?" " Oh I was first place out of 1 person in my class." Kinda lame. 

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To me that's the wrong way to look at any match. It's not you against others but you against the course. But to each his own.

Brian
 
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But please, no silly rules about targets having to be XX inches high and if in your position you can't see the target because its too low or because of scrub brush or whatever, then you need to change your position for that target(s). Bobby mentioned EBR EAFT, and that's the way it is there. Many of the targets can't been seen from prone or sitting on the ground - more than half. So we all need to decide, do we make it equitable position for everyone, or do we allow any position desired? Right now we are moving in the "everyone shoots from the same position".

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That's how I think FT should be. Adjust your position to suit each target.

Have the rules specify any seats or supports that will be allowed (none allowed is my preference, but rules should be so as to attract the most shooters), and then let the shooter use any position they want - prone, low seat, high seat, no seat, but the targets should not be required to be set to accommodate a specific position. In other words, be prepared to engage the target from a position (not a specified position) that you feel will get the job done to best advantage for each target position.

Shoot the way you want, and don't complain about the target visibility.

If more than half the targets can't be seen from the prone position, than no one is going to rely on the prone position if they expect to be competitive. That should not mean that they are not allowed to use the prone position for targets where prone would work.
 
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I'm not so much a proponent of bucket and sticks being THE required position as I am of simply having A standard position. From the perspective of bad backs, advanced age, BMI, etc. sticks and a bucket is likely the most inclusive. 

Only having one allowed position is what I'm supporting more than anything else through all of this. Whatever that shakes out to be, that's how I'll practice and learn to shoot to the best of my abilities. 
 
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@centercut, so if a bumbag becomes allowed and prone becomes allowed, can I stuff my bumbag under my gun as a shooting bag and shoot laying down on my belly? Cuz bumbags work pretty good for shooting bags. Avoiding that type of ridiculousness is what I've been so vocal about throughout all of this.
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I'm all for eliminating the ridiculousness... I was just brainstorming. I'm with you on keeping it simple and fair, and was only pointing out just how ridiculous it would become if we did allow all types of BS... Perhaps I didn't make that clear. My bad... 

The rules do need to be specific enough that that can't easily be "tweaked" to suit an advantage. Something like bucket/stool,. sticks,. ground, bum bag, short bipod, whatever, but nothing that would give that intrinsic position an advantage, like a platform or something similar. It wouldn't be fair for me to bring a platform a foot or two high that I can lie on to shoot prone. Prone position is on the ground. Sitting position is on the ground. Etc. Not sure I'm expressing myself clearly...

Mike
 
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@centercut, so if a bumbag becomes allowed and prone becomes allowed, can I stuff my bumbag under my gun as a shooting bag and shoot laying down on my belly? Cuz bumbags work pretty good for shooting bags. Avoiding that type of ridiculousness is what I've been so vocal about throughout all of this.
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I'm all for eliminating the ridiculousness... I was just brainstorming. I'm with you on keeping it simple and fair, and was only pointing out just how ridiculous it would become if we did allow all types of BS... Perhaps I didn't make that clear. My bad... 

The rules do need to be specific enough that that can't easily be "tweaked" to suit an advantage. Something like bucket/stool,. sticks,. ground, bum bag, short bipod, whatever, but nothing that would give that intrinsic position an advantage, like a platform or something similar. It wouldn't be fair for me to bring a platform a foot or two high that I can lie on to shoot prone. Prone position is on the ground. Sitting position is on the ground. Etc. Not sure I'm expressing myself clearly...

Mike
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It was more rhetorical than anything else. Cuz that's the kind of stuff guys will do unless the position rules prohibit it. 
 
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IGreat points Ron and Mike N. I think I saw at least 2 or 3 shooters using their own laser rangefinders this past November just to confirm accurate range. Almost all of us that shoot EAFT hunt, so we already have laser rangefinders if we want to use them… Having the actual range does put the emphasis on wind reading and positional stability as Mike N mentions above, which is as it should be. We also set shooting position on bucket (or stool) and sticks (unattached bipod), plus limit scope Mag to 25x to make it as fair as possible for everyone. As of now, no bum bags or prone allowed. Ben and I discussed minimum seat height of 8 inches, which will be added to the rules as the sport evolves…

this is very interesting to me. It was my understanding per the match director that ideas were to be presented in an email and he would bring the idea to the match and it would be voted on . I used a bum bag before as did Someone else their first time shooting. There is certainly no advantage and was simply just a preference since I had no experience with sticks. It seems to me that people are forgetting that extreme Field target is an event started at EBR. You can shoot the target any way you want so long as your back is not supported. I used my bumbag for some and bucket and sticks for others . This was not advantageous since there is a time limit. We have veered away from that little piece of the puzzle and if you are under a time limit you do not have time to try this position and then another. Bucket and sticks are possibly the best and fastest so maybe, just maybe this is why it’s used. We originally used time clocks and it was hastily dismissed but is a HUGE part of the event and IMO needs to be brought back. I have brought this up and will bring it up again so it hopefully will be reinstated.

Bucket, stools and sticks have always been provided but never have I heard it was required. It was always my understanding that this shoot was started because so many people loved shooting it at EBR and we always had to wait a year to shoot it again. Well now we have a monthly match that can help us do better when EBR rolls around again. Remember Michael shot a perfect score using sticks and a bucket. Why would anyone feel the need to do it any other way. You could but this has been proven so why make things more complicated than they need to be. Honestly, if it’s not broke don’t fix it.




 
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