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Extreme FT rules and positions

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I think Centercut and Franklink may have jumped the gun alittl. I think we as. Group will vote as usual on any preliminary rule that will be or is to be changed or modified. The 8” stool was in reference to stools that AOA donated that we already have. I think the intention is that ALL the participants have a vote after they are given the details pros and cons as given by other members. Example last month Mike smith had a different type of bipod. Mike gave the description of how it worked and as a group we voted to allow it.
 
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I was wondering how CC ended up making his statement on the adding the rule as if it was already decided. It seems to me there is a lot of information being put out there that is not exactly true. Rules and requirements that have not been completely established. The reason the ranges are given is because when there is a time limit it makes it where the 3 targets can be feasibly completed in the 5 minutes. We don’t need more classes. We need to keep it simple like It is at EBR so it can continue to be challenging and fun at the same time. 
 
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Hey, easy now... ;). I discussed with Ben before posting but jumped the gun. Should have said it’ll be voted on, my bad...

Yes, common sense. regarding the ground. Prone on a shooters mat is on the ground. Cross legged or normal knees up butt down on a bag is on the ground. And of course bucket and sticks isn’t.

PS., the sky is blue and the Earth is round. Just sayin’. ;)
 
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Bluebaby and I have actually shot in the EBR AFT... unlike most in this discussion. There is a reason it's the first event to fill when registrations are begun... it's the whole experience . What Ben is doing is incredible! The amount of work to get this going is off scale ! 

What's missing from this one though is time. In EBR AFT, you are given a rigid minute to set up, then 5 minutes to shoot 8 shots. That's 37.5 seconds per shot that INCLUDES ANY AND ALL adjustments to your position. ANY POSITION is allowed but the clock is the enemy so complicated positions or equipment really aren't beneficial. I really like Scotchmo's post earlier that basically outlines these same ideas.... any position and use the course to limit the use of prone or other undesired positions but put TIME back in.... please.... I think that would solve a lot of this discussion. 37.5 seconds times 4 shots is 2.5 minutes. Throw in an additional minute for setup and have 4 minutes to shoot 4 shots from the time you get figured out who is to shoot. Pick up rifle, pellets, sticks, adjust seat, and address target.... all on the clock..... go...

If you disallow attached bipods(as an example), not going to be much prone shooting. This TIME factor is HUGE in the pressure of completing a lane and to me... one of the really important aspects of the EBR AFT experience that keeps people coming back.

I'm intending to shoot the event, regardless, but hope we can continue the EBR AFT trend of less rules , please.

Bob
 
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Thank you Bobby and Sandy, always the voices of reason. 

Despite all the drama this conversation seems to have created, and however the rules shake out, I too will continue to compete in the Extreme FT matches. I shot at the first and the third monthly matches and enjoyed the heck out of both of them. 

I liked the use of the timers at the first match and will vote for their return if given the chance. As Bobby states, all this silly arguing might be simply solved by putting people back on the clock. I like it. 

(Does this mean I can shoot from a bum bag and harness now? Lol)
 
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”Also remember, this isn't AAFTA Field Target. We do not need to carry forward rules that have been implemented into the AAFTA rules due to prejudice or politics."

Such speculation from one who didn't live it can't be faulted for not realizing how perfectly this thread fits the adage "History repeats itself".

That history will also repeat itself here.

Mod edit: antagonistic statements removed. 
 
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Bob, I like it... I’ve shot EBR AFT twice, but seem to have forgotten that time crunch and the excitement and pressure to get your 8 shots off in time. And just like EBR AFT, attached bipods are allowed, whether for sitting on a bucket or lying prone, didn’t matter. Less rules means just that, less.

The four minutes starting before you step on the rubber mat would be a good time limit. When your time is up you’re done, even if your finger is on the trigger. I wonder if we can use that recording on outdoor speakers like they use at EBR? That made everything flow so much better...
 
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Rules:

  • No Tripods
  • No Rear Rest
  • Pellets Only (no bullets/slugs)
  • Scope Magnification maximum of 32x
  • No Challenging of Targets
  • Any shooting position is allowed within marked shooting area
  • Bipods, shooting sticks, and monopods are allowed (2 inch maximum diameter base)
  • No chairs with back allowed

Just thought I'd copy and paste the whole rules set for EBR AFT. Not suggesting that we HAVE to follow them but only pointing out the simplicity and genius involved. The TIME factor really does kill a lot of the problems but I realize there are those that feel better with gadgets. I shot with a guy named Matt in Temecula that had a toolbox full of adapters and devices to allow him to shoot all kinds of angles and positions with his USFT pretty well supported and he could manage the contraption setup AND his shots well within the time limit. Might have helped.... he didn't win... but it was entertaining ...

So Franklink. . I'm guessing your harness would fall under the back support rule.... maybe?..... lol.

Bluebaby and I witnessed a LOT of the transitional rule stuff going on in AAFTA and always made me sad.... to take a simple, fun, game with minimal rules and have the constant searching for ways to circumnavigate them for some perceived advantage. The nature of humans and competition , I guess.

Looking forward to the next one anyway.

Bob
 
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......

Bluebaby and I witnessed a LOT of the transitional rule stuff going on in AAFTA and always made me sad.... to take a simple, fun, game with minimal rules and have the constant searching for ways to circumnavigate them for some perceived advantage. The nature of humans and competition , I guess.
Click to expand...

THIS is what I've been trying to say all along, stated much more eloquently than my many attempts. 

When the talk of only one allowed position started, I jumped on it, with the perhaps ill-conceived notion that a single allowed position could eliminate all that crap that I've seen go on elsewhere. 

CC and I have been the most vocal proponents of the single allowed position idea, even though neither of us would prefer to shoot from that position (bucket and sticks) if given the choice.

My intent throughout all of this discourse has simply been fairness. Level playing field, or as level as possible given all of our varying degrees of honesty and integrity. 

Will be interesting to see how this is all put to a vote and the ensuing outcome. 


 
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Rules:

  • No Tripods
  • No Rear Rest
  • Pellets Only (no bullets/slugs)
  • Scope Magnification maximum of 32x
  • No Challenging of Targets
  • Any shooting position is allowed within marked shooting area
  • Bipods, shooting sticks, and monopods are allowed (2 inch maximum diameter base)
  • No chairs with back allowed

Click to expand...

That's a set of rules I can get behind. 

And from a target setter perspective, I wonder if it would be easier to use a peg instead of a marked shooting area, like British HFT. Just put a stake in the ground, and the shooter has to be touching the stake with some part of their body.
 
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We have shot many times on lanes marked by a peg or stake or cone in AAFTA matches. Works for me ... Ben laid down small rubber mats for the stools and buckets to be used on. They are nice because the terrain is rocky and fine dusty. Because the terrain is so rocky and the targets large, he's anchored pallets to fasten them to. It's been a tremendous amount of work and to get more options, more will need to be installed. This makes controlling the type of position with target placement difficult. Obstacles COULD be placed to shoot around or over, but the matches are still in their infancy and more important details are still being addressed.



There are probably a couple of others that have shot and will contribute , CC. I spaced it on that. FUN way to do it, for sure. I admire what Ben is trying to do with this, but am just against creating mandatory MORE gear to use. Seems like Scotton, Scotchmo , and AirNGasMan are supporting that same idea with less rules, more shooter options, and simpler.

Looking forward to the next one ...

Bob
 
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With the direction this discussion has turned....the big question is from what position should I practice for the next one? 

In my preferred position of sitting on a bumbag and using a harness, my "chair" (bumbag) doesn't have a back.......so would fit into the EBR AFT rules shared above. And I can dang sure get plopped down in that position and crank off 4 well-placed shots within 4 minutes. 

Just playing devils advocate here cuz this is the type of stuff that is going to come up. The vote will essentially be about whether or not we are all okay with that.
 
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Cole, instead of band-aiding the core issue with your suggestions....you should seek a way to root out those with a lower level of honesty and integrity.


Mike
Click to expand...

Not catching your drift. 

To reiterate, I thought the implication of supplying shooting sticks for the EBR AFT and also for these new monthly matches was that people were expected to shoot from that position. And I have no problem with that. My gripe is that certain people will say, well, the organizers are expecting us to shoot from sticks, and most everyone is, but, there aren't any rules saying I have to, so, even though most of the competitors are going with the whole fair chase concept and using the sticks, I'm going to shoot in a position that I feel is more stable. That automatically disenfranchises the rest of the competitors that were assuming the sticks is just how it's done.
 
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@Franklink, didn’t you shoot the first time from your bumbag? I have tried that and find that it’s pretty steady but certainly can’t say it’s more steady. I tried shooting from the bucket and have come to realize that it’s to tall for me. So I use the stool. Remember Wayne cut his bucket added a padding to the top to fit him specifically. This was Hunter class FT, not EBR AFT. I personally think if this game takes off more and more people will be doing something of this nature. Also, having their own preferred sticks set to the correct height so they don’t have to be adjusted every time. In EBR AFT it was necessary to move in order to see the next target you were shooting on occasion and this is not something we have had to deal with yet. I know Ben has been working hard on trying to add lanes to make it slightly different and add variations to the matches to make it more challenging and different each time. 

So to answer your question, I think if you want to shoot from your bumbag you could practice that since it has not been passed as a rule and will not be voted on until the end of the match. Like I said, I have used mine for some lanes in previous matches and found no benefit. But remember if you win it will more than likely get voted down since everyone will think it gave you an unfair advantage. Haha JK, 


 
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No, I shot from the supplied folding stool and Vanguard? sticks both times that I've participated. The first time was a pain because the sticks were out at the lanes and Gene and I had to adjust the sticks every time we shot (he was using the bucket and I was using the stool). The second match I shot with a guy who brought his own sticks so the supplied sticks that I grabbed off the table at the pre-match meeting were used throughout the match and I really only had to get them adjusted to my liking at the beginning of the match. 
 
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I believe only bureaucrats impose rules for no particular reason other than camouflage their agendas and justify their salaries. So assuming no-one is getting rich on Extreme Field Target, I believe it safe to assume no-one here is interested in adding superfluous rules.

Having been involved in more rules-making/evolution than I ever cared to, contrary to what some seem to believe, everyone should understand that rules come about to address real issues and situations; either forecast, or as issues dictate solutions. 

So rather than anyone jumping to conclusions that rules are unnecessary, or just a few rules can address any competition beyond tiddly-winks, much less EFT as it grows from infancy to awkward adolescence to maturity, the most we can hope for is to cover all the necessary bases with as few, simple, succinct, and unambiguous rules as possible.

I'm still not sure this thread has settled whether or not bum-bags are allowed in EFT competitions. But employing one rule that seems virtually sacrosanct might prove its worth at this particular moment in Extreme FT time; that being Match Directors' option... correction, luxury, of running their events as they see fit.

As it seems bum-bags are in danger of becoming a casualty of a larger, elephant-in-the-room agenda, allowing bum-bags at TEXtreme Field Target might help set sensible precedent for healthy growth of Extreme Field Target.
 
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