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Extreme FT rules and positions

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Lol... I love it AirNGasMan!!

Looking forward to it !

We really enjoyed shooting with you guys this last weekend and CONGRATULATIONS on your hard fought win ! My Bro even kicked my butt with my own rifle ;) Also, serious CONGRATULATIONS to ZX10Wall (the Kidd ) for taking down the Old Man and setting a new course record in pistol AND whupping us all in 35 ft lb class. GREAT times !!

A note about the Textreme schedule .... Garrett has published the date for the Southwest Gran Prix field target match on the weekend of March 5th. Hoping yours doesn't conflict. We would really like to be able to attend both.

Bob
 
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To reiterate, I thought the implication of supplying shooting sticks for the EBR AFT and also for these new monthly matches was that people were expected to shoot from that position. And I have no problem with that. My gripe is that certain people will say, well, the organizers are expecting us to shoot from sticks, and most everyone is, but, there aren't any rules saying I have to, so, even though most of the competitors are going with the whole fair chase concept and using the sticks, I'm going to shoot in a position that I feel is more stable. That automatically disenfranchises the rest of the competitors that were assuming the sticks is just how it's done.
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Cole, I think we both were just trying to carry forward the Match Directors intentions, and also what we all assumed was required since the bucket/stool and sticks were supplied. If that’s not the case...

I’m with what Bobby C pointed out last night. Adopt the EBR AFT rules as is, including a hard stop time limit. Continue to carry forward Pellet and Slug classes. Other than that, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. 
The only “vote” I see is whether or not your “girdle” acts as a seat back or not, since seat backs are one of the few things not allowed in EBR AFT... never used one so I don’t know.
 
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Just let me add that the first time I shot EBR AFT I had NEVER shot from sticks and bucket before. I hadn’t started using my body harness yet so I chose to shoot from my bumbag and off my knee like I did in the open class FT matches. The first two lanes went fine, I think I missed a 20 yd target (scope wouldn’t go that low so was blurry) used my mulligan and got it. When I got to the next lane I couldn’t see the targets from my position so I had to use the bucket and sticks. I did knock some down but missed some too. The moral of the story is that no matter what position you may WANT to shoot that is not from a bucket and sticks, you will at some point need to use the bucket and sticks. It is not a one position fits all match. This may be another factor that would add to the “Extreme” name that has been given to this match. You never know what your going to encounter and adjustments will definitely need to be made...at least that is what I have discovered in EBR AFT. It you just want a big version of FT with larger targets, further ranges and more powerful guns then get your rule book out because that is what it will come to.


 
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To reiterate, I thought the implication of supplying shooting sticks for the EBR AFT and also for these new monthly matches was that people were expected to shoot from that position. And I have no problem with that. My gripe is that certain people will say, well, the organizers are expecting us to shoot from sticks, and most everyone is, but, there aren't any rules saying I have to, so, even though most of the competitors are going with the whole fair chase concept and using the sticks, I'm going to shoot in a position that I feel is more stable. That automatically disenfranchises the rest of the competitors that were assuming the sticks is just how it's done.
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Cole, I think we both were just trying to carry forward the Match Directors intentions, and also what we all assumed was required since the bucket/stool and sticks were supplied. If that’s not the case...

I’m with what Bobby C pointed out last night. Adopt the EBR AFT rules as is, including a hard stop time limit. Continue to carry forward Pellet and Slug classes. Other than that, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. 
The only “vote” I see is whether or not your “girdle” acts as a seat back or not, since seat backs are one of the few things not allowed in EBR AFT... never used one so I don’t know.
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Might need a vote about prone position too then. 

All this crap was what I was trying to avoid by going along with what Ben was telling us about sticks and a seat with min height of 8inches would be required. 

I'm fine with the sticks. But if I'm trying to do the right thing and shoot the match as intended, then everyone else should have to as well. 
 
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Thanks for the heads up about Garrett's GP match date, BC. I'll definitely schedule TFT for a different weekend. 

My brother used to abuse me the same way as your's. I'd get his rig set-up really well, only to have him kick my butt the next match! Seemed to get worse after he lost the last joint of his trigger-finger and started using his middle digit. However, imagine how much more embarrassing it would be if a girl beat you... I mean, ME, with a rig you... I mean, I, set up for her! 👩 😳 😉 

Speaking of fingers, guess we're gonna have to break the Kidd's thumbs for disrespecting his elders like that, huh? But in all seriousness, I'm flattered to be humbled by the level of shooting talent my little matches are attracting.

BTW, your 80 Foot Pound class BRS record still stands, Bob (just no longer alone). Some old geezer recently tied it with some kind'a weird-ass, obnoxiously-loud, third-world hunting rifle. WTF?

25 Sumatra.1607622349.JPG







 
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I think we're in a great mode here.... there are a lot of good thoughts and observations. I don't think the EBR AFT rules are really enough for the future of EAFT but was just pointing at complexity of rules and limiting simpler position options out not really being the preferred approach. The TIME aspect WILL sort out a few of the concerns, but not everything. Keep in mind that at the Rio venue, terrain can be used pretty creatively AND it's only once per year. I really like Scotchmo's idea of addressing the lane on it's own terms to sort out the best shooter that day, but the setup of the then becomes the difficult part. Many of you who have shot at my matches have seen some creativity with this but the venue itself can have limitations.

"I just wanna shoot".....

Bob
 
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Thanks for the heads up about Garrett's GP match date, BC. I'll definitely schedule TFT for a different weekend. 

My brother used to abuse me the same way as your's. I'd get his rig set-up really well, only to have him kick my butt the next match! Seemed to get worse after he lost the last joint of his trigger-finger and started using his middle digit. However, imagine how much more embarrassing it would be if a girl beat you... I mean, ME, with a rig you... I mean, I, set up for her! 
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Speaking of fingers, guess we're gonna have to break the Kidd's thumbs for disrespecting his elders like that, huh? But in all seriousness, I'm flattered to be humbled by the level of shooting talent my little matches are attracting.

BTW, your 80 Foot Pound class BRS record still stands, Bob (just no longer alone). Some old geezer recently tied it with some kind'a weird-ass, obnoxiously-loud, third-world hunting rifle. WTF?

25 Sumatra.1607622349.JPG




Hahaha....very funny. We were both LOL on that one. 



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Just some .02's of mine that I feel compelled to share...

I haven't been back to the EAFT match since the first one and didn't know the timers weren't used in later matches. It drives me nuts when someone takes a long time to shoot a lane in regular FT, which then becomes 10 lanes or more, and now its taking ridiculously long. Then if more unluck has its way there is even more than one person taking too long as well. Been in this position many times in our local matches and it can get extremely annoying! Lets please avoid that at all costs! Especially for those that travel, like me, who might want to get home ASAP, or go to places in Phoenix that we need/want to go to since we are already in the area. 

I guess my current stance is that "only" the EAFT supplied shooting aids already present in the lane should be allowed to be utilized, along with the current rules of no back support and feet on the ground. That and the time limit keeps things incredibly simple because we are all doing the same thing, and so no advantage can be realized by the use of personal shooting aids, "whether perceived to do so by others or not". 

Also the way I see it now is that there should be no positional lanes in the match because if you take two equal shooters in the usual way the one that is better at positional shooting will get high score more often than not. I'd just rather it be that if I won a match it was because I hit most of the KZ's due to getting the wind right and not making any mental mistakes, not because I was good at offhand, or that I lost a match because I wasn't good at offhand. BTW, this opinion is coming from a fairly good offhand shooter who has won matches basically because I hit most of the offhand targets. 

I used to shoot a long range centerfire match and what was so FUN about it was that it was all off the bipod shooting at steel, and lacking any positional. The guys that won only won because they got the wind right, had their DOPE down, didn't make any mental mistakes, and had capable equipment. 

But like others have stated, I'm planning on attending when I can, no matter the rules. 


 
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Everyone can physically shoot from a stool or bucket and a bipod not everyone can get up from a bum bag not everyone can get in a position that can lay the rifle across both legs therefore in my opinion one position is the simplest bucket or store and bi pod just my opinion. My vote will be. One is the simplest number. Lol
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This is where we differ. I feel like buckets should be ALLOWED because some shooters have to shoot from a bucket, not REQUIRED because some shooters have to shoot from a bucket. Making things required to accommodate a small group of shooters is a slippery slope. I can't afford a Daystate Redwolf, so does that mean that no one should be allowed to shoot a Red Wolf? I'm very tall, so shooting on a bucket puts me at a disadvantage against shorter shooters. Should bucket height be modified so that all shooters' heads are the same distance from the ground?

At the end of the day, you need to outshoot people. I'm beaten consistently by people that shoot from sticks and buckets, and people that sit on bum bags. But no one has ever beaten me BECAUSE they were sitting on a bucket or a bum bag. Shooters gotta shoot, and the best shooters will shoot best.


 
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One problem I see that can happen, and that has happened to me on different occasions, is that I couldn't engage a target the same way others could. Context being I sometimes cannot get into a steady position to engage a target because I can't get high enough or something else is protruding in the way obscuring, in other words I'd have to shoot a target off hand or kneeling to make the shot vs others who can make the shot in their normal FT seated position. This is another reason I went into Freestyle. 100% of the time the people setting up the course didn't do this on purpose BUT it happened more than a few times and these were usually forced position shots. Sandy you probably remember this happening to you earlier this year in our FT match??, I think we laughed it off eventually but I learned something that weekend about course set up and that is the target has to be easily acquired by everyone.

Another example was in the EBR AFT last year, I couldn't get high enough on the tall bucket to see some KZ's, literally guessing where it was. The curse of the short torso is what I call it.

If positions are forced then test them to make sure everyone regardless of size can engage them equally. I'd personally rather not deal with forced position shots even though they do add spice to the game, sometimes a not so good tasting spice at that.
 
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Just to opine why some folks prefer terrain to play a role. Some of us feel field target is still the hunting-simulation game it was originally conceived as and created to be, as opposed to competitions like bench-rest, NRA silhouette, and ten meter competitions available to those preferring stricter structure.

Hunting rewards adaptability, so I see no reason a hunting-simulation game should disallow, avoid, or overly minimize (all) terrain variables. Neither should it purposely handicap physical limitations like heigth and/or flexibility; especially for nefarious motives. 
 
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This is a field shooting game, so this talk of bucket and sticks just seems stupid. The shooter should use whatever position is best for the shot at hand. The match director can lay out the course so that not all targets are visible from prone. Maybe have the shooter have to stretch and lean against a tree for standing support now and then... Shooting prone or kneeling with a sling for support has been taught to marksmen for 100 years or so now. It seems these are logical field shooting positions that should be practiced in a game like this to prepare for hunting.
 
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One problem I see that can happen, and that has happened to me on different occasions, is that I couldn't engage a target the same way others could. Context being I sometimes cannot get into a steady position to engage a target because I can't get high enough or something else is protruding in the way obscuring, in other words I'd have to shoot a target off hand or kneeling to make the shot vs others who can make the shot in their normal FT seated position. This is another reason I went into Freestyle. 100% of the time the people setting up the course didn't do this on purpose BUT it happened more than a few times and these were usually forced position shots. Sandy you probably remember this happening to you earlier this year in our FT match??, I think we laughed it off eventually but I learned something that weekend about course set up and that is the target has to be easily acquired by everyone.

Another example was in the EBR AFT last year, I couldn't get high enough on the tall bucket to see some KZ's, literally guessing where it was. The curse of the short torso is what I call it.

If positions are forced then test them to make sure everyone regardless of size can engage them equally. I'd personally rather not deal with forced position shots even though they do add spice to the game, sometimes a not so good tasting spice at that.



I totally get what your saying @steve123, I’m not sure people understand the honor system when shooting and trying to keep it at 5 minutes for FT that’s why I am advocating timers. You also compared FT to AFT and that’s is comparing apples and oranges . In FT in is quite necessary to give everyone the same opportunity to shoot the targets and have the same view. In EBR AFT it is not like that and was never designed to be that way. I will say it it again, buckets/stools and sticks are probably the most efficient way to shoot EB R AFT but not required . If the course is set up creatively enough no one should be able to shoot the whole match all one position other than using the b & s . Not required just set up that it makes sense to shoot it that way.
it puzzles me that this has gone to such an extreme, pun intended, discussion . We have shot 3 times, 4 if you include the inaugural match, and no one complained about what or how we should or shouldn’t be shooting . Curious.....
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I will say it it again, buckets/stools and sticks are probably the most efficient way to shoot EB R AFT but not required . If the course is set up creatively enough no one should be able to shoot the whole match all one position other than using the b & s . Not required just set up that it makes sense to shoot it that way.
it puzzles me that this has gone to such an extreme, pun intended, discussion . We have shot 3 times, 4 if you include the inaugural match, and no one complained about what or how we should or shouldn’t be shooting . Curious.....
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Good points, and I didn't hear any complaints at either of the matches I attended. No one that has actually shot the match has said anything either positive or negative about B&S as a "requirement" that I can remember.... We all just shot that way because the equipment was provided, and we all assumed it was required. About the only thing I heard from many was "guess I gotta practice more to become steadier B&S''...
 
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This is a field shooting game, so this talk of bucket and sticks just seems stupid. The shooter should use whatever position is best for the shot at hand. The match director can lay out the course so that not all targets are visible from prone. Maybe have the shooter have to stretch and lean against a tree for standing support now and then... Shooting prone or kneeling with a sling for support has been taught to marksmen for 100 years or so now. It seems these are logical field shooting positions that should be practiced in a game like this to prepare for hunting.
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Agree 100% , to many rules, just hit the target with whatever you can carry with you.

B
 
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This is a field shooting game, so this talk of bucket and sticks just seems stupid. The shooter should use whatever position is best for the shot at hand. The match director can lay out the course so that not all targets are visible from prone. Maybe have the shooter have to stretch and lean against a tree for standing support now and then... Shooting prone or kneeling with a sling for support has been taught to marksmen for 100 years or so now. It seems these are logical field shooting positions that should be practiced in a game like this to prepare for hunting.
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Agree 100% , to many rules, just hit the target with whatever you can carry with you.

B
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Can I bring my buggy so I can carry more assist devices?
 
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