Extreme FT rules and positions

[thomasair]

Unlimited classes tend to foster progress.

Many view progress as a detriment. 

An unlimited class would allow all the cheaters and morally bankrupt folks a place to shoot away from the rest without actually cheating.

Plus, when the good and pure turn in a higher score, they can crow about what they have done....and rightfully so.

Sounds like a win-win. 

Mike 

 

[Franklink]

Unlimited classes tend to foster progress.

Many view progress as a detriment. 

An unlimited class would allow all the cheaters and morally bankrupt folks a place to shoot away from the rest without actually cheating.

Plus, when the good and pure turn in a higher score, they can crow about what they have done....and rightfully so.

Sounds like a win-win. 

Mike

A little Schrodinger's cat concept perhaps.........

If someone win-wins in a competition in which they are the only one using a certain technique/piece of equipment etc (that the rest of the competitors are either incapable of, or simply cannot obtain, no matter the price OR are not "morally bankrupt" enough to stoop to those levels) than did they REALLY win? 

Reminds me of deflated footballs, steroids, and "juiced" bats. Maybe we should invite Tim Donaghy to be the ranch officer on match days? 

 

[steve123]

You guys are already doing two classes. Slug and pellet.

Make pellet the restricted class...and let slug be unlimited. See what happens. In a years time you will have lots more info. If guys want to shoot unlimited with pellets, that’s their choice. Choice is good.

Makes sense to me!

No dog in the slug fight. But a certain somebody has been sharing incredibly impressive results with home-brew slugs. Making the slug class unlimited would be a convenient way to get around the "mass-produced projectiles" requirement. I'll be glad to not be shooting in slug class if it becomes a situation where I'm shooting against a guy that is using unobtainium ammo, except to him. But, I suppose that's the unlimited nature of an unlimited class. Sounds like a vote, lol (this whole thing has been plenty ridiculous already but it sounds like it's likely to only get more so).

C'mon man you're killing my buzz! 

Just trying to be the voice of reason when it comes to considering the long-term implications of rules and changes to those rules, like I have been throughout this entire poopshow. Essentially trying to take the stance of how can the rules be equitable for ALL competitors, future and present vs taking the viewpoint of, "how can I get ahead of the competition at any cost."

It all good with me... whatever happens - happens.

Just musing - In unlimited/freestyle, I do enjoy cleaning a course more than anything else if at all possible, and trying the different ways to shoot, like prone with attached bipod one day while dialing dope, then the next time doing the same thing using holdovers, next time off bucket and sticks, you know switching things up a bit. I guess I like the tripod via clamp most because I don't have to get up and down off the ground. I used to do like Scott did and range with the reticle to determine distance. This kind of stuff is a lot of fun to me. I got bored at some point with open and hunter in FT which is why I went to freestyle. 

Sh!tshow, lol, this is soothingly tame compared to snipershide forum!!!!! Heck I see great civility here and only people expressing opinions.

Like you said, "the vote" will establish what is acceptable to the majority. 

As to slugs, and your expressed opinion concerning "home brew", while giving an example here. I don't think a rifle shooting custom swaged slugs providing 1.1 moa at 100Y with a 1.2 BC at 850 fps is going to give any discernible advantage "in the real world" to mass produced slugs providing 1.2 moa at 100Y with say a 1.15 BC going a little faster, this on 2-3 moa KZ's, which is how close slugs will be in the near future, if not right now, but I don't know what mass produced slugs and BC's are available right now??? And there's the fact that people can and will weight sort, etc, mass produced slugs. You know darn well people will strive to get mass produced slugs with even higher BC's right at 99 fpe and at some point will all be around 1 moa give or take a few. 

 

[AirNGasman]

Lively discussion

"poopshow"... (necessarily).

Don't sugar-coat it; tell us how you really feel. 

 

[thomasair]

The win-win of the situation is that you can shoot your class with like minded individuals...and the folks you are trying to avoid can shoot the unlimited class.

There is plenty of room for everyone.

Guys in one class shouldn’t worry about the scores of the other...that’s been a pitfall for AAFTA for as long as they have crowned overall match winners.

Mike 

 

[Franklink]

The win-win of the situation is that you can shoot your class with like minded individuals...and the folks you are trying to avoid can shoot the unlimited class.

There is plenty of room for everyone.

Guys in one class shouldn’t worry about the scores of the other...that’s been a pitfall for AAFTA for as long as they have crowned overall match winners.

Mike

Hey now. I'll have you know that I've had fun at every single AAFTA match that I've ever been to. 

 

[thomasair]

I’m certain you have had fun. 

Do think attendance at aafta events would increase if they did away with the Open, WFTF, and Unlimited divisions and only allowed the remaining Hunter division with additional restrictions on position?

Mike 

 

[Scotchmo]

Unlimited classes tend to foster progress.

Many view progress as a detriment. 

An unlimited class would allow all the cheaters and morally bankrupt folks a place to shoot away from the rest without actually cheating.

Plus, when the good and pure turn in a higher score, they can crow about what they have done....and rightfully so.

Sounds like a win-win. 

Mike

I like the idea of two classes.

I'm all for advancing the state of the art.

Competition is a good place to test and see what works and what does not work. If something new works well, others will want it and some enterprising individual or an established company will soon be producing it. Limitations for legitimate safety reasons excluded, if we put strict limits on what can be done, we won't see as many cool new developments.

Have an unlimited class - high power scopes, shooting jackets, bum bags, seat, sticks, attached bipods, slugs, range finders, 600cc+ tanks, etc. Homemade or mass produced - all good.

And another class with as many restrictions as the group desires.

 

[Franklink]

Here we go, history repeating itself and the already small pool of shooters getting all broken up. 

The having fun at AAFTA events quip was in reference to a comment thomasair made earlier in this discussion. 

AAFTA doesn't have an Unlimited class to do away with. It was voted down if I remember correctly. 

Here are my thoughts on guessing about what a universal class would do to AAFTA attendance.

But first I'll share an example of what was one of the most enjoyable matches I've ever attended. It was an Airgunners of Arizona monthly match at Arzrover's place. It was announced the previous month that this event would have special rules, different than typical AAFTA fodder. That month we would shoot with a scope power limit of 10x, all distances would be known, everyone would shoot from shooting sticks, and we would all be in a universal class.. The prelims were in a typical ft situation with regular field targets. The top shooters from the prelims advanced to finals which consisted of various stages of more and more difficult targets. The finals stages were things like army men offhand at 35 yards, or paintballs at 45 yards, etc. The last two shooters were shooting at a bell target with a roughly 1/2inch aperture at around 55 yards if I remember correctly, and I think it may have been offhand. It was so fun to have everyone be in the same class. The camaraderie was much higher than a typical, divided til there was nothing left and one or two shooters per class, AAFTA match. The 10x scope limit meant that just about anybody could compete with just about any scope. The structure of the match gave no automatic advantage to expensive equipment. In short, it was great.

Now, back to your question......Initially people would piss and moan, just like we're seeing here. Those pissers and moaners competitive advantage might disappear and that just wouldn't be right. But, if they wanted to compete, the less prideful amongst them would start practicing in the newly approved only allowable position. And eventually the numbers would probably swell because the emphasis isn't on specialized equipment like > $1000 scopes with sidewheels the size of dinner plates, and foot tall knee risers and butthooks that look like something that should be attached to the three-point hitch of a tractor not somebodies shoulder. In the sub 20fpe realm (since we're talking about AAFTA) lots more gun/scope combos would have the potential to be competitive. 

As for me, I enjoy this silly airgun thing enough that I would start practicing from shooting sticks. I would also likely sell my high-end, extremely specialized field target gun because it wouldn't be any more useful in this theoretical competition than a regular sporter. Actually it would likely be very hard to sell because their wouldn't be a market for it anymore (Maybe that's part of the problem you have with this concept of stopping the equipment race with the intent of being more inclusive and equitable?)

 

[thomasair]

I don’t think that accurate guns will ever go out of fashion. It’s neat that you believe you can stop the equipment race in a sport that is highly equipment dependent.

We will see where it goes over the next year.

Mike 

 

[Scotchmo]

...
AAFTA doesn't have an Unlimited class to do away with. It was voted down if I remember correctly. 
...

I don't remember ever voting for a true unlimited class (Division?) in AAFTA. But a couple/few years back, the AAFTA BOG did have an informal vote among the clubs to allow a new trial class, where the only change would be to allow Open Division shooters to use a bucket and sticks. I think 60% voted for the change but it would have needed 2/3 (67%) to pass. It was not going to be called Open but I forget the name that was used.

I think the fear was that bucket and sticks with a high power scope made the game too easy and some did not want to compete with them or even be compared to them.

 

[Franklink]

I don’t think that accurate guns will ever go out of fashion. It’s neat that you believe you can stop the equipment race in a sport that is highly equipment dependent.

We will see where it goes over the next year.

Mike 

Yes, we finally agree on something. No, accurate guns will never go out of fashion.

And as long as we're answering each others questions and in an attempt to understand your perspective........

Please help me understand how a level playing (or at least as level as possible) is the bad thing you make it out to be?

We use "competition" as if it has a noble, righteous meaning, but really its simply from the root word compete, and the definition for that word sounds pretty ugly, almost the opposite of sportsmanship.

com·pete

verb

1. 
   strive to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others who are trying to do the same
   
   [/LIST=1]
   
   If we're comparing ourselves and our skills (in this case in regards to our marksmanship ability) again, how is it a bad thing to try to minimize the effect of the equipment? 
   
   Maybe your idea of competition places more emphasis on the inherent abilities of the equipment and less on the shooter? My idea of competition is that the most dedicated, hardest working person should have the best chances at winning. But, start putting a Sightron scope next to some poor guy with a UTG in a competition where ranging by focus is required, (like regular field target), and it doesnt matter how good of a shooter the UTG guy is, he will shoot lower scores than the Sightron guy. 
   
   Back to the slug thing as an example, I just can't see any way that a competition is even remotely fair by allowing one guy to shoot a personally produced slug (that no one else can even get) when everyone else is shooting whatever slugs they can purchase. (Yes I understand and appreciate the immense amounts of R&D that you've put in to get the results that you are with slugs. You are perhaps the only potential competitor that has the time and resources to produce those slugs and those results. But nobody that you're going to be shooting against has that amount of time or resources or likely even knowledge to also produce those slugs. I just can't see how "winning" in that scenario is really winning.)
   
   

 

[Franklink]

...
AAFTA doesn't have an Unlimited class to do away with. It was voted down if I remember correctly. 
...

I don't remember ever voting for a true unlimited class (Division?) in AAFTA. But a couple/few years back, there was an informal vote to allow a trial class, where the only change would be to allow Open Division shooters to use a bucket and sticks. I think 60% voted for the change but it would have needed 2/3 (67%) to pass.

Yeah, the details in my memory were vague but I drug this up from my inbox, from our club secretary, dated 01/14/18. Looks like the vote was for a trial like you're saying. 

Hey Gang,



The vote for “hunter unlimited” did not pass the 2/3 votes needed to be included as a trial class, therefore the option failed.



Here is the notification that I just received;



“The deadline for votes closed as of January 13, 2018.



1) As shown here:

http://aafta.org/Assets/resources/documents/2018/AAFTA_Clubs_Trial_Votes.pdf



We reached out to all 43 member clubs to confirm that they were receiving email communication sent via " [email protected]".



Out of 43 registered clubs, 4 were not eligible to vote, and 4 opted to abstain.

From 35 eligible votes received, 21 clubs voted "Yes" and 14 clubs voted "No".



BTW, we received 3 other "No" votes that could not be counted because the clubs were not eligible (per By-Laws).



2) As shown here:

http://aafta.org/Assets/resources/documents/2018/Trial_Class.pdf



The required two-thirds majority was not reached, therefore AAFTA will not sanction a Trial Class for 2018.



Thanks for participating in the process.

AAFTA Chairman, on behalf of the BoG”



For us that means that Freestyle class as you have been shooting it is still in effect within OUR club only. Other clubs may have their own version of Freestyle, or whatever they want to call theirs. Those Freestyle shooters in our club that wish to shoot at other clubs would therefore have to follow the rules of that club for whatever class they want to shoot. Maybe as time goes on, it will be looked at again. If it does, and it won’t be anytime in the near future, we will keep all of you informed.



See you on Saturday.

Mark

 

[Franklink]

Wish the links to the descriptions still worked. Oh well. 

 

[Scotchmo]

If we're comparing ourselves and our skills (in this case in regards to our marksmanship ability) again, how is it a bad thing to try to minimize the effect of the equipment? 

... it doesnt matter how good of a shooter the UTG guy is, he will shoot lower scores than the Sightron guy. 

...

Two classes.

One with minimal equipment allowed. Minimize the affect of equipment (if that's even possible).

And another with few restrictions. Advance the state of the art.

Hey! Three of my four National FT championships were won while using UTG scopes. I shot a higher score than the "Sightron guy".

 

[Franklink]

If we're comparing ourselves and our skills (in this case in regards to our marksmanship ability) again, how is it a bad thing to try to minimize the effect of the equipment? 

... it doesnt matter how good of a shooter the UTG guy is, he will shoot lower scores than the Sightron guy. 

...

Two classes.

One with minimal equipment allowed. Minimize the affect of equipment (if that's even possible).

And another with few restrictions. Advance the state of the art.

Hey! Three of my four National FT championships were won while using UTG scopes. I shot higher scores than the "Sightron guys".

Yay for you. We should get you some kind of award. 

But that doesn't answer the question. You've still got slug guys struggling with commercial slugs and whatever guns they can buy, not custom machine themselves, competing against deeper pockets than they do. 

For your argument to hold water, we'd need three classes: slug class with minimal equipment, pellet class with minimal equipment, and then the manufacturer/engineer/machinist? class 

And now we're back at the argument of slicing and dicing up an already shallow pool of competitors.

 

[Franklink]

Unlimited classes tend to foster progress.

I like the idea of two classes.

Competition is a good place to test and see what works and what does not work. If something new works well, others will want it and some enterprising individual or an established company will soon be producing it. Limitations for legitimate safety reasons excluded, if we put strict limits on what can be done, we won't see as many cool new developments.

I missed this little gem earlier. I think we may have found at least a big portion of the motivation for an unlimited class. ($$$)

 

[Scotchmo]

...
For your argument to hold water, we'd need three classes: slug class with minimal equipment, pellet class with minimal equipment, and then the manufacturer/engineer/machinist? class 

...

If there is a desire to control the provenance/shape of the projectile, specify that in the restricted class (i.e. mass produced diabolo pellets). In the unlimited class, it does not matter (i.e. mass produced, hand cast, swaged, pellets, slugs, whatever works best). So only two classes covers everything.

 

[thomasair]

You are looking at the sport differently than most. 

There is nothing wrong with trying to make up a game where equipment is irrelevant. It’s just that it’s practically impossible when the game heavily relies on a piece of equipment to do the work.

A gun isn’t a gun. Not even the same brand and model. It cannot be successfully argued that a red wolf that shoots 1 moa is the same as a red wolf that shoots 2 moa. What’s the difference? Usually it means that someone has taken the time to make it as good as it can be. Can everyone do that? Does everyone have the resources to pay for someone else to do that? Can everyone even afford one to begin with?

What about pellets? Is one tin of pellets the same as another of the same brand and model? Only if you are ignorant to the fact that they are not.

You are contesting a game of accuracy. That accuracy comes from many components including the shooter.

Believing you can make it only about the shooter is not reasonable. Trying to make a shooting contest where accuracy of the rifle is out of the picture is impossible unless you are just going to eliminate the projectile and use a laser beam.

People like accurate rifles. People like projectiles that defy the wind. As long as those two facts remain...you will have people seeking them out to use in shooting sports that depend on accuracy to win. That is actually part of the component that makes it fun for many people. There are plenty of poor shooters with top notch equipment...and probably plenty of good shooters with poor equipment. It takes both to be successful at the a shooting game that depends on accuracy.

As I said before...if you want to make this sport appealing to people that don’t want to get into an equipment race...your best chance is to put all the targets beyond the reasonable accuracy range of a pellet. Accurate pellet guns are very evident under 75 yards...but the difference between a top gun and a mediocre gun at 100 and beyond is much smaller. Make the kill zones big so people can shoot 80% or better.

You will probably find that the fun factor for folks that like fun games will go way up. You will also find that serious competitors probably won’t bother playing the game which will likely make it even more fun for the others less competitive folks.

The problem with your concept is that you believe that the way things are allows undeserving people to win. What you are missing is the guys that win FT matches at higher than clubs levels ...are doing so because they put more into it than the next guy and it’s not the equipment doing all the work. Everyone has good equipment. 

I often hear guys moaning about the cost of good equipment. In almost all cases those same guys have spent more money on a dozen other rifle and scope combos that don’t help them do what one good setup would have.

I have also raced short track dirt oval and found that the overwhelming number of racers could not begin to afford what they were doing...often going without electricity at home to get a new set of tires or some other part. Competitive people always find the money to do what they love. People that play for fun will likely never understand that.

As for slugs...how long do you think it will take after the first competition for someone to copy a slug that outperforms all the others if such a slug exists? My guess is a week to a month. The end of the world won’t come between those two times.

Mike 

 

[Nofilters]

The law has already been passed. If you guys feel like ladies you are allowed to use the ladies room.