I think we can all agree that bargain scopes with MOA adjustment turrets and a MIL reticle are crippling.
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FFP Scopes and all the hype
- Thread starter Spyguy
- Start date
I slapped one onto my crown once after selling the Athlon that was on it while I was waiting for the new discovery 4-16. It was SFP and I start missing left and right. So I ramp it up to 12x and realize how stupid i was when a one inch popper was only 1 increment at 50. I understand this was to aide in ranging. But man, that's like giving someone metric measurement tools to work on imperial machines. Doable, but, a pain.
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It was a center point scope that came with a crosman break barrel combo from basspro that someone gave me as a gift some 14 years ago. You can bet your house that I pay attention if Im spending Schmidt and bender money.
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That's my experience too. I'll usually shoot on 6x because that is where I sight my air rifle. I may zoom in to get a better look. But I'll always zoom back to 6x (or less) to shoot the rifle. On a firearm I use enough magnification to estimate the drop on the animal and shoot off the crosshair regardless of magnification. I don't use holdover dots at all.
On a paper target I zoom so the target is barely visible around the crosshair. A tiny target always yield the best grouping.
Hunting is a completely different ballgame with completely different requirements. You have no idea what range an animal may present a shot or how long that opportunity will last. You need to prepare to hit your target at any range without fiddling with your sights. Most guys shoot off the crosshair and know their arc well enough to get within an inch or so at any range the target presents itself. That's generally done with a dope sheet in inches of drop and using the crosshair as a point to measure from on the body of the animal.
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Objectively false. Is that how you have a discussion? I'm not rubbing anyone here. Why don't you allow me the same respect?
I think I was crystal clear about the advantages of FFP in certain circumstances. Did you not read that part?
I understand that YOU use blinking lights, holdover dots, zoom and whatnot. Most hunters do not. Most plinkers do not. Simply because YOU do it a certain way does not mean others do it that way. Nor does it mean my way is "objectively false".
Where YOU hunt and the guys YOU shoot with it may be different. You can range and click and zoom and turn on the lights when a shot presents itself if you want to. I can assure you that the equipment and methods YOU use in YOUR situation will not be efficient in MY situation. I was simply offering my perspective.
If you feel a piece of equipment makes it easier for you to do what you need to do then buy it! But please don't try to scuff me up about it. My experience and opinion is AT LEAST as valuable as yours. I will always give others room for their opinions and I demand that others give room for mine.
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I spoke in broad terms and I apologize. You got me. That all encompassing statement was objectively false.
When that statement is read in the context of my post I believe the meaning becomes clear. When taken out of context it becomes objectively false and you have something to snipe about.
Some guys do hunt with that stuff I suppose. It's specialized equipment that's not really suited to hunting but some guys use it and feel it helps them. For them it's just peachy. For MANY guys it's just a bunch of crap they don't find useful because they hold over for elevation in a completely different way.
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Four or five years ago, I never heard of an FFP scope. Then someone posted that they are the latest and greatest and the best thing since sliced bread. I'll stick with the mouldy old stuff.
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Every scope has scaled strengths and weaknesses depending on particular tasks that the end user has in mind.
I've simply found FFP scopes to be more versatile at a wider range of tasks is all.
The main attribute of FFP is having a reticle with hash values for holdovers and holdoffs correct on any magnification.
There are reasons these are favored in sports like NRL and PRS where one will need to devote their thinking to the varied dynamic situations they find themselves in instead of if they are at the correct magnification in a SFP scope for values to be correct and if the FOV will be large enough to find targets fast enough to wade through the stage layout optimally. I've been there back when I used to use SFP Nightforce 5.5-22x56's in tactical matches and it was a hindrance. It can be much harder to find small steel out there on max magnification and you don't have time to be dialing the magnifcation back and forth, and not only have I timed out before but I've seen others do this back then.
I won my first tactical match as soon as I got a FFP Horus Predator 8-26x50, using holdovers and holdoffs on 15x or so, which gave just enough FOV to find steel fast, which was literally a game changer for me. The difference was HUGE!!!!
In this case there's absolutely no question as to which P excells.
Could FFP be used in BenchRest and excell, of course. I could go either way SFP or FFP for BR. This is a fixed distance so dialing works best and you can use the target rings for holdoffs. I prefer a very high magnfication scope with simpler reticle in SFP having thin hashes. This specialized type of scope isn't great for most types of hunting and not great for speedy dynamic shooting for obvious reasons.
How about hunting? Even though this isn't my wheelhouse I've done it much more especially on varmints. I could also go either way FFP or SFP. After all I used 4x and 3-9 SFP's with dupex reticle and capped turrets when I was young and shot tons of stuff at PBR. You can become pretty good with these "out" to a certain point in distance at which time you're just SWAGing where to aim.
Up the magnifcation and add modern features in a SFP and the veratilty goes up. Have "time" on your side and modern SFP is fine in many cases because you can plainly see the reticle on low magnification with a large FOV for shots not much more than PBR. Farther out and hashes correct at whichever magnification that is, then dial, GTG.
Even still I prefer FFP because Murphy will likely make sure you find yourself in that situation where FFP would have helped.
The best times I've had was when shooting colony varmints, and was with a FFP using holds, H59 reticle, in a S&B 5-25. Head shots on PD's out to 300Y was fast and easy with my 20 cal centerfire precison rifle.
As some of you know I love my FFP Athlon G2 Helos DMR 2-12x42. It covers the most bases as far as versatility of any scope I've experienced so far.
You can do more on 12x than one would think and also using 2x.
Seeing reticle on 2x, yes.
Speed shooting, yes, and super good at this.
Paper target shooting, yes, and IMHO superb for black bulls with the illume on because of the large dot and the circle works as a aperture. Still awsome on regular targets.
Works fantastic for Hunter pistol FT.
Excellent for long range steel either holding or dialing. No problem hitting our 1143Y 19x21" plate with specialized AR.
Has a zero stop and locking turrets!
Does work for BR but of course there are better choices.
The DFP March 1.5-15 could be the one I'd pick but the super compactness and 10x mag ratio compromises IQ quite a bit.
Iron's have their place, but, and there are a lot of buts, well why even go there, and Red Dots aren't much different.
But hey whatever works for you.
I've simply found FFP scopes to be more versatile at a wider range of tasks is all.
The main attribute of FFP is having a reticle with hash values for holdovers and holdoffs correct on any magnification.
There are reasons these are favored in sports like NRL and PRS where one will need to devote their thinking to the varied dynamic situations they find themselves in instead of if they are at the correct magnification in a SFP scope for values to be correct and if the FOV will be large enough to find targets fast enough to wade through the stage layout optimally. I've been there back when I used to use SFP Nightforce 5.5-22x56's in tactical matches and it was a hindrance. It can be much harder to find small steel out there on max magnification and you don't have time to be dialing the magnifcation back and forth, and not only have I timed out before but I've seen others do this back then.
I won my first tactical match as soon as I got a FFP Horus Predator 8-26x50, using holdovers and holdoffs on 15x or so, which gave just enough FOV to find steel fast, which was literally a game changer for me. The difference was HUGE!!!!
In this case there's absolutely no question as to which P excells.
Could FFP be used in BenchRest and excell, of course. I could go either way SFP or FFP for BR. This is a fixed distance so dialing works best and you can use the target rings for holdoffs. I prefer a very high magnfication scope with simpler reticle in SFP having thin hashes. This specialized type of scope isn't great for most types of hunting and not great for speedy dynamic shooting for obvious reasons.
How about hunting? Even though this isn't my wheelhouse I've done it much more especially on varmints. I could also go either way FFP or SFP. After all I used 4x and 3-9 SFP's with dupex reticle and capped turrets when I was young and shot tons of stuff at PBR. You can become pretty good with these "out" to a certain point in distance at which time you're just SWAGing where to aim.
Up the magnifcation and add modern features in a SFP and the veratilty goes up. Have "time" on your side and modern SFP is fine in many cases because you can plainly see the reticle on low magnification with a large FOV for shots not much more than PBR. Farther out and hashes correct at whichever magnification that is, then dial, GTG.
Even still I prefer FFP because Murphy will likely make sure you find yourself in that situation where FFP would have helped.
The best times I've had was when shooting colony varmints, and was with a FFP using holds, H59 reticle, in a S&B 5-25. Head shots on PD's out to 300Y was fast and easy with my 20 cal centerfire precison rifle.
As some of you know I love my FFP Athlon G2 Helos DMR 2-12x42. It covers the most bases as far as versatility of any scope I've experienced so far.
You can do more on 12x than one would think and also using 2x.
Seeing reticle on 2x, yes.
Speed shooting, yes, and super good at this.
Paper target shooting, yes, and IMHO superb for black bulls with the illume on because of the large dot and the circle works as a aperture. Still awsome on regular targets.
Works fantastic for Hunter pistol FT.
Excellent for long range steel either holding or dialing. No problem hitting our 1143Y 19x21" plate with specialized AR.
Has a zero stop and locking turrets!
Does work for BR but of course there are better choices.
The DFP March 1.5-15 could be the one I'd pick but the super compactness and 10x mag ratio compromises IQ quite a bit.
Iron's have their place, but, and there are a lot of buts, well why even go there, and Red Dots aren't much different.
But hey whatever works for you.
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Years ago I didn't know anything about PCPs other than the most basic information that doesn't mean they don't have a long extant history and many long time shooters with extensive knowledge. Because something is novel to you doesnt change anything. I competed in unknown distance courses since my teenage years and yes FFP was born from precision marksmanship, the range and battlefield. However, once learned they are precision tools, and once mastered they become a massive advantage on the range and in the field. Without the scale you're just estimating "that's about 2 inches'. But our eyes and minds are not exactly precise tools all the time. Instead of hit or miss on sparrows. I choose where in it's head to hit. And can shoot with confidence that I'm going to be within half an inch if all goes to plan. I'm struggling to understand how a more certain measurement and hold is disadvantageous in any way. Every "problem'' ive seen mentioned is easily managed by simply buying based on the reticle and objective size you prefer. Only on 6-24, 5-30' 10-40 scopes is the tiny, hardly visible at low mag reticle an issue. On my 4-16 and even on my 6-24 I find myself between 8 and 13x consistently. I only go up to 16 when my shots are beyond 85y. Not that I need to. But because I can be more exacting. Everyone has their preferences and that's fine.
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I wasn't attacking you. I didn't mean to come off harshly. But, the statements came off as more deriding the choice of FFP in the field as some newfangled ridiculous fad. I disagree. I fail to see how a changing scale can be an advantage. I understand you like the reticle to be the same size at every magnification and that's fine. I prefer the opposite. If any disrespect was sensed, I apologize. It wasn't mean that way
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The disadvantages are not with the scope but with the application. For precision shooting using a graduated crosshair to elevate a FFP may be advantageous to some guys. There is no argument there.
You can shoot every bit as precisely with a SFP. You just have to go about it differently. They have graduations you can use too. They are just a bit more complicated to use if you shoot on different magnifications.
You can click your elevation with either type and shoot off the crosshair. Zoom it wherever you want. The dots don't matter anymore.
It dosent matter much which type of scope or how it is incremented as long as you understand it's functions and know where to aim. No one way is better than the other. What you are practiced with is always best for precision shooting.
Hunting is not precision shooting. In certain circumstances you might use precision shooting techniques. But in most cases the equipment and methods used for precision shooting are indeed a hindrance. It all depends on where you hunt and what you hunt.
I would consider shooting sparrows and rats with a rested gun precision shooting. A coyote from a blind off a tripod is precision shooting. The equipment you use for that would be completely different than walk hunting squirrels, jackrabbits or cotton tails.
You can shoot every bit as precisely with a SFP. You just have to go about it differently. They have graduations you can use too. They are just a bit more complicated to use if you shoot on different magnifications.
You can click your elevation with either type and shoot off the crosshair. Zoom it wherever you want. The dots don't matter anymore.
It dosent matter much which type of scope or how it is incremented as long as you understand it's functions and know where to aim. No one way is better than the other. What you are practiced with is always best for precision shooting.
Hunting is not precision shooting. In certain circumstances you might use precision shooting techniques. But in most cases the equipment and methods used for precision shooting are indeed a hindrance. It all depends on where you hunt and what you hunt.
I would consider shooting sparrows and rats with a rested gun precision shooting. A coyote from a blind off a tripod is precision shooting. The equipment you use for that would be completely different than walk hunting squirrels, jackrabbits or cotton tails.
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I’ve seen A LOT of guys spew much of the same drivel that Bob is. Just like Bob they believe all of it too… until it’s time to do some actual shooting. Somehow, once you hit several minutes of drop, it becomes much easier to hit stuff when you use the reticle (or turrets) to precisely aim, rather than spit-balling the drop using the “aim-high Willie” approach.
If we’re talking airgunning inside 50-60 yards, or PB hunting out to 250-300 yards… then all of this stuff is “scoop of chocolate, scoop of vanilla… don’t waste my time.” (I believe this is where Bob is referring to “hunters”, and he’s partially correct.)
But if we’re talking extended hunting ranges (60-100 yards with your average airgun, or 400-600 yards with a PB), then FFP and repeatable turrets offer tremendous advantages over Kentucky Windage. There are many “hunters” who chose to take advantage of these FFP advantages.
If we’re talking airgunning inside 50-60 yards, or PB hunting out to 250-300 yards… then all of this stuff is “scoop of chocolate, scoop of vanilla… don’t waste my time.” (I believe this is where Bob is referring to “hunters”, and he’s partially correct.)
But if we’re talking extended hunting ranges (60-100 yards with your average airgun, or 400-600 yards with a PB), then FFP and repeatable turrets offer tremendous advantages over Kentucky Windage. There are many “hunters” who chose to take advantage of these FFP advantages.
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Anywhere there's something to lean on or prone out and flip out the pods becomes a precision situation. I can accept you appreciate the large FOV. Have you tried an immersive FFP? everything comes down to the mind who's eye is peering through the glass.. however. The man with the measuring tape or the guy with the stick that's "about a yard". One can get by anywhere, one can make do sometimes.
This was humor. My sense of humor makes death valley appear waterlogged in comparison
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I can absolute concede to that point. Between 1 and 60 it doesn't much matter. Maybe 2.4 minutes of travel is only an inch and a quarter. I see your point. Forgive my autism. And I'm not being facetious. I often forget how my direct and undressed language is perceived in print.
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