FFP Scopes and all the hype

[steve123]

Bob Quote, "You can click your elevation with either type and shoot off the crosshair. Zoom it wherever you want. The dots don't matter anymore."

If you are referring to using windage hashes in a SFP reticle, when the elevation is dialed as the shooting solution, then that is incorrect for exact holds of 'other than that one magnification' because these hash values are only correct on one magnification. You can dial windage in this case, or you can math out what value the hash values are on a particular magnification, or you can SWAG it.

I hold off more than 90% of the time so FFP is easier most of the time. The windier it is the more I depend on those windage hashes in conjunction with the ballistic program. Especially for long range and ELR.

 

[Coinwa]

Bob Quote, "You can click your elevation with either type and shoot off the crosshair. Zoom it wherever you want. The dots don't matter anymore."

If you are referring to using windage hashes in a SFP reticle, when the elevation is dialed as the shooting solution, then that is incorrect for exact holds of 'other than that one magnification' because these hash values are only correct on one magnification. You can dial windage in this case, or you can math out what value the hash values are on a particular magnification, or you can SWAG it.

I hold off more than 90% of the time so FFP is easier most of the time. The windier it is the more I depend on those windage hashes in conjunction with the ballistic program. Especially for long range and ELR.

Wind holds are the primary reason dialing for elevation is better than any system of “hold-over”. Once the elevation is compensated for the X-axis, all one has to worry about is managing the wind-hold on the Y.

I understand Bob’s comment about “hunting not being precision shooting”… I wholeheartedly disagree… but I understand what he’s saying.

HOWEVER… hunting should also be a little more precise than “Hold a foot high and 10” right”… even when “pesting” with an airgun.

 

[steve123]

Wind holds are the primary reason dialing for elevation is better than any system of “hold-over”. Once the elevation is compensated for the X-axis, all one has to worry about is managing the wind-hold on the Y.

I understand Bob’s comment about “hunting not being precision shooting”… I wholeheartedly disagree… but I understand what he’s saying.

HOWEVER… hunting should also be a little more precise than “Hold a foot high and 10” right”… even when “pesting” with an airgun.

True if one has time to dial elevation. And if you aren't dialing that allows more time to locate targets, build a better position, and see what the wind is doing.

Nowadays I dial elevation a lot because I'm out of practice holding over, which is more of a confidence thing to me at present, whereas I used to be very good at holdovers and holdoffs years ago, good enough to win a ELR match. I ran out of elevation so I had to holdover the rest of the elevation after 20 mils, and holdoff for wind quite a bit, for the farther targets. I hit the 2356 yard plate and I'm not sure anyone else hit it that match.

At that same location won the long range series two years in a row primarily holding over and off using the H59 reticle. Literally everyone else was dialing elevation. I think they thought I was nuts but it worked. Basically I could take my time and they were rushing because it takes time to look up and dial.

I don't want to sound braggy but I've won matches in four other gun disciplines using holdovers and holdoffs.

Well if I'm shooting at a fixed distance a bunch dialing is the way to go.

You know it just occurred to me that I should start using holds again for a new match format that our club just started which would save me some time since I'm getting close to timing out!

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I can absolute concede to that point. Between 1 and 60 it doesn't much matter. Maybe 2.4 minutes of travel is only an inch and a quarter. I see your point. Forgive my autism. And I'm not being facetious. I often forget how my direct and undressed language is perceived in print.

I agree with you on every point you've made.

Shooting at the extremes of any weapon a good scope and good dope is great no matter how you do it.

Airguns have a lot of trajectory. It sure helps when making tiny precise shots.

I hunt within my capabilities and within reasonable distance for the game I'm after. I don't have any problems with a springer at 80-100 yards with iron sights. My transitions are pretty good. The same with my 06 out to 350 and a fixed power duplex reticle. It's only a few inches and I know I'm going to put it in the right spot.

The only time I've ever needed anything more is for long distance shots on Prarie dogs or steel. I've got a rifle set up for that. I don't hunt with it. It's simply not sensible for spot and stalk. It's SFP 6x20 Vortex. It's a great scope for a stationary target at a known distance. The FOV is miserable and the crosshairs are thick. It's big and unwieldy. It's great for long shots. It sucks for jump shooting coues deer in scrub or sniping them out at 400 yards.

I'm certainly not advocating Kentucky windage. That's not the message here at all. I know exactly how much drop my bullet has at any range down to the fraction of an inch. And I can estimate that on the target with plenty of precision to make a shot. If I can't I pass on the shot and hunt closer. If I wanted to make 500 yard shots I'd shoot a rifle set up to do that. But I don't shoot those ranges on game so it's a moot point. I have simply never found the need to shoot that far nor do I expect to.

I love irons within 100 yards. I like shooting offhand. Yeah I get more precision with a graduated crosshair. But I get on target and make just as many "hits" with open sights. And hunting within 100 yards It's just more fun. Even if you toss one in the dirt or gut shoot a rat.

For a pellet gun or a saddle gun a scope is optional. Precision is too. If your after precision a scope is needed. If you just want to practice your shots and plink it's quite unnecessary unless your eyes are such it makes it difficult.

I can stand and shoot better with open sights than with a scope by a big margin. I can get on target faster and follow a moving target much better. If I'm shooting at stationary targets from a rested position of course a scope is better. With the arc of an air rifle it makes precise transitions possible and the first shot IS more precise.

But...

A reasonably sized target (2 moa) will get hit (almost) as many times with open sights as a scope. Instinctive shooting (like a traditional bow) is (almost) as accurate as calculating a precise shot with a dope sheet from 10-50. It is much faster and infinitely more fun to shoot than calculating precise range transitions and trying to dope wind.

One pellet in the dirt is all it takes to dope the wind anyway. Why calculate? Sling one out there at a tiny target, see where it lands and adjust accordingly. It's honestly no big deal unless it's of utmost importance that every shot be as precise as possible.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

Bob Quote, "You can click your elevation with either type and shoot off the crosshair. Zoom it wherever you want. The dots don't matter anymore."

If you are referring to using windage hashes in a SFP reticle, when the elevation is dialed as the shooting solution, then that is incorrect for exact holds of 'other than that one magnification' because these hash values are only correct on one magnification. You can dial windage in this case, or you can math out what value the hash values are on a particular magnification, or you can SWAG it.

I hold off more than 90% of the time so FFP is easier most of the time. The windier it is the more I depend on those windage hashes in conjunction with the ballistic program. Especially for long range and ELR.

I clearly said elevation. Not windage. If your hash marks help you with ELR and long range and a FFP scope helps you dope wind then fantastic! Use one!

I use the windage marks on a SFP. It works just as well as the marks on an FFP but in a little different way. I acknowledge that the FFP may be simpler to rationalize. I'm not knocking a FFP scope at all. Just saying for my use it's not a sensible expenditure. For me it's more "hype" than it is a valuable tool. For you it may make all the difference.

I suppose I'll have to say it again?

For MOST guys shooting a pellet gun at pellet gun ranges a simple scope or open sights works fine. For specialized applications and precision shooting a scope with specialized features is often the way to go.

You guys are a hoot! You defend your fancy specialized scopes like a daughter on her first date. If they make it easier to do what you want them to do my opinions on what works for me shouldn't make that much difference. Yet for some reason my observations are quite the chatter...

 

[JimD]

I've been buying 6-24s so I can use 6x for pesting and plinking and 24x for targets. But I recently bought a 10-40 scope for targets so I could go back to lower power scopes. My Arken 6-24 is a nice scope but almost unusable at 6X. My PA 4-14 is also FFP but the reticle is thick enough I can easily see it at 4X. Overall I'd rather just use SFP. I put the holdover at a couple magnification on a label inside the optical lens cover. But with a 30 yd zero most of my guns are within a quarter inch or so from 20 to 40 yards which covers most pesting shots. I rarely want to take time to look up a holdover and just do it referencing the size of the target.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I've been buying 6-24s so I can use 6x for pesting and plinking and 24x for targets. But I recently bought a 10-40 scope for targets so I could go back to lower power scopes. My Arken 6-24 is a nice scope but almost unusable at 6X. My PA 4-14 is also FFP but the reticle is thick enough I can easily see it at 4X. Overall I'd rather just use SFP. I put the holdover at a couple magnification on a label inside the optical lens cover. But with a 30 yd zero most of my guns are within a quarter inch or so from 20 to 40 yards which covers most pesting shots. I rarely want to take time to look up a holdover and just do it referencing the size of the target.

Exactly.

 

[steve123]

I clearly said elevation. Not windage. If your hash marks help you with ELR and long range and a FFP scope helps you dope wind then fantastic! Use one!

I use the windage marks on a SFP. It works just as well as the marks on an FFP but in a little different way. I acknowledge that the FFP may be simpler to rationalize. I'm not knocking a FFP scope at all. Just saying for my use it's not a sensible expenditure. For me it's more "hype" than it is a valuable tool. For you it may make all the difference.

I suppose I'll have to say it again?

For MOST guys shooting a pellet gun at pellet gun ranges a simple scope or open sights works fine. For specialized applications and precision shooting a scope with specialized features is often the way to go.

You guys are a hoot! You defend your fancy scopes like a daughter on her first date. If they make it easier to do what you want them to do my opinions shouldn't make that much difference. Yet for some reason my observations are quite the chatter...

That's why I stated "if".

Here's the confusion. You could have stated "use the crosshair", rather than "off" the crosshair, right?! Because clearly "off the crosshair" more clearly defines "away" from the crosshair. In other words I've never said to anyone, hey bud, shoot off the crosshair, lol, because saying "use the crosshair" gets the meaning across clearly.


And my point still stands because those hashes in the reticle are only precise for windage, even if "elevation is dialed", "and only on one magnification when SFP, so this matters from a little to a lot.

The only times you use the center crosshair actual, after elevation is dialed, is when you're so close there's no need for windage, you've dialed the windage already, or there is no wind to account for. Otherwise you aim "off" using the hashmarks.

I think I went "off" a little here, but it was clearly needful, lol.

 

[JimD]

I also don't understand messing with magnification hunting. I miss judged a squirrels position on a limb this week by not turning up the magnification but usually taking the time to change it would cost me the shot. I almost always use 6X. More and I'm too slow to acquire the shot. Lower and I worry about placement. But regardless of what magnification you like if you don't mess with it you should know the value of your reticle marks. I find SFP scopes with a reticle I can see a lot more useful than a FFP scope with an invisible reticle at the magnification I want to use.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

That's why I stated "if".

Here's the confusion. You could have stated "use the crosshair", rather than "off" the crosshair, right?! Because clearly "off the crosshair" more clearly defines "away" from the crosshair. In other words I've never said to anyone, hey bud, shoot off the crosshair, lol, because saying "use the crosshair" gets the meaning across clearly.


And my point still stands because those hashes in the reticle are only precise for windage, even if "elevation is dialed", "and only on one magnification when SFP, so this matters from a little to a lot.

The only times you use the center crosshair actual, after elevation is dialed, is when you're so close there's no need for windage, you've dialed the windage already, or there is no wind to account for. Otherwise you aim "off" using the hashmarks.

I think I went "off" a little here, but it was clearly needful, lol.

I got you. I threw an apple and you caught an orange. I miscommunicated.

I should have said the elevation would be corrected and you would shoot somewhere along the horizontal crosshair. I said "off the crosshair" and that was a miscommunication. I see clearly how it was misinterpreted.

I say "shoot off the crosshair" and that's probably a scar from my sketchy upbringing. I mean shoot "from" the crosshair. Shoot "on" the crosshair. Not shoot "off" the crosshair.

I can generally dope a steady wind fairly closely by estimation. No one can dope the wind in some conditions. At long range it's super tricky and I'm certainly not qualified to say what might work best. Especially with a pellet gun beyond 50 yards.

I've shot shotgun shells with 6" of wind drift at 80 yards with my springer and still hit targets with regularity. It took a couple shots to find the sweet spot and i missed plenty of shots. But I don't believe a calculation would have prevented those misses. I've never "calculated windage" other than using an estimated drift chart with a hunting firearm. With a pellet gun I shoot a couple shots, see where they hit and adjust for wind accordingly.

 

[Vetmx]

I see there is some serious back and forth going on here and I’m one of the dummies that returned to SFP so I better clarify. Squirrel hunting in the woods is a very important part of my airgunning. I am locked on 6X for all shots out to 75 yards. I will bump it up for a long bomb once in a while. I have time to dial. Plain and simple. I’m not being charged by a lion or rhino. It’s a squirrel. But I simply have to see my reticle at all magnifications from dawn to dusk. I have illuminated reticle scopes and I don’t illuminate. I don’t like it.

I still have and use two FFP scopes. The one that I absolutely won’t part with has a reticle that gets giant on 24x so I never go there. But it’s fine at 20x and usable on 7x. But I still am not taking full advantage of all the tiny aiming points in low light or critter on the move situations. I just know how to hold almost instinctively. Now if I’m going to compete where I can’t dial and will be using a mag that I can quickly and clearly see everything going on with my reticle, FFP all the way.

 

[MongooseV8]

Different tools for different applications. I like SFP for some things and FFP for others. Modern FFP reticles are very usable at min power, manufacturers started designing them with that in mind.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

Maybe it's just my impressions of FFP. I've never shot one. I've looked through a few and browsed them on the internet. They all have been prohibitively expensive, complex reticles and higher magnification than I would ever need. Although I've never used one, I understand the advantages and disadvantages, or at least I think I do...

I may have the wrong idea about them. They may truly be the cats meow. I might need to go out and buy one so I can see what all the fuss is about.

 

[L.Leon]

I find SFP scopes with a reticle I can see a lot more useful than a FFP scope with an invisible reticle at the magnification I want to use.

Use what you like, this subject has been overblown by those who insist that SFP is somehow better, in practical, tactical shooting scenarios? Not so for many shooters. My personal preference is FFPs with IRs, if I am using the scope at its lowest magnification the centerpoint of the crosshair is more than enough for me. @steve123, already stated the advantages of using an FFP at lower magnification to gain an increased FOV, which he proved through competition to be an advantage. Why? Because the holdovers, and more importantly the hold offs are the same and do provide an advantage…

I got you. I threw an apple and you caught an orange. I miscommunicated.

I should have said the elevation would be corrected and you would shoot somewhere along the horizontal crosshair. I said "off the crosshair" and that was a miscommunication. I see clearly how it was misinterpreted.

I say "shoot off the crosshair" and that's probably a scar from my sketchy upbringing. I mean shoot "from" the crosshair. Shoot "on" the crosshair. Not shoot "off" the crosshair.

I can generally dope a steady wind fairly closely by estimation. No one can dope the wind in some conditions. At long range it's super tricky and I'm certainly not qualified to say what might work best. Especially with a pellet gun beyond 50 yards.

I've shot shotgun shells with 6" of wind drift at 80 yards with my springer and still hit targets with regularity. It took a couple shots to find the sweet spot and i missed plenty of shots. But I don't believe a calculation would have prevented those misses. I've never "calculated windage" other than using an estimated drift chart with a hunting firearm. With a pellet gun I shoot a couple shots, see where they hit and adjust for wind accordingly.

You are throwing a lot of apples…and doing a lot of miscommunicating. Why not simply enjoy you SFP scopes with your SWAG for hold offs and hold overs and call it a day. Others have found a different way that they like and use effectively…

‘Shoot ‘somewhere’? along the horizontal crosshair…?!!! Lots of “I should have saids” on your part… My personal experiences with FFPs and SFP scopes comes from thousands of pellets downrange, I prefer FFPs and don’t really care what others might prefer atop their guns.

 

[Vetmx]

Maybe it's just my impressions of FFP. I've never shot one. I've looked through a few and browsed them on the internet. They all have been prohibitively expensive, complex reticles and higher magnification than I would ever need. Although I've never used one, I understand the advantages and disadvantages, or at least I think I do...

I may have the wrong idea about them. They may truly be the cats meow. I might need to go out and buy one so I can see what all the fuss is about.

I sold a bunch of them 30 seconds after I unboxed them. Turned them to 6X, no go, back in box and up for sale. Would have made you a heck of a deal.

 

[Tumblinginflight]

FFP or SFP, I put the crosshairs close, break the shot, then guide the projectile to the target with my mind. It’s the only way.

If there seems to be hype around big scopes, high mag, and FFP, that’s likely due to the fact that quality, availability, cost, and availability of accessories has aligned like never before. My guess is that this trend will start to ebb a bit. In the next few years I’d expect 1” tubes to quietly start disappearing, dual focal to start appearing more, move LPVOs to have adjustable objectives, better optimized FFP reticles, and an emphasis on lighter, more compact offerings across the board. Maybe some of that will even manifest at S.H.O.T. next year, or maybe that’s just my holiday optimism.

 

[L.Leon]

I sold a bunch of them 30 seconds after I unboxed them. Turned them to 6X, no go, back in box and up for sale. Would have made you a heck of a deal.

Question becomes who, in fact buys an FFP scope to use at its lowest magnification range? I would bet that is a very small demographic. My sweet Pathfinder sports a 3-12x44 FFP SF IR. I have used it throughout it magnification range to take pest from 10 to 50+ yards. Most of the time its parked at 8x. My 6-24x50 FFP SF IR atop my Ghost is mostly used in the 8-20x range. For me FFP has proven versatile in airgun shooting, am not speaking to powderburners…

 

[Tumblinginflight]

I’ll also add that properly adjusting the diopter on a FFP can make a huge difference in usability. It would be interesting to learn how many discount a FFP without tuning to their eye first. Utilizing illumination at lower power levels adds functionality. I understand not wanting to rely on batteries and electronics, but it does help.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I sold a bunch of them 30 seconds after I unboxed them. Turned them to 6X, no go, back in box and up for sale. Would have made you a heck of a deal.

I was just kidding. I'm not interested in one. I'm perfectly happy with my Sightron S1 4x12x40 on the HW97k. I'm getting a Leupold 3x9x32 a.o. for the HW95. The Cometas I shoot open sights and the Hatsans have all been given to a buddy to shoot. I have a wheelbarrow full of Hawke scopes if anything needs an optic.

I need more gear to play with like I need a second set of nipples. I'm going to take half of it to the gun show in the spring so I have room to work in my shop.

 

[Vetmx]

Question becomes who, in fact buys an FFP scope to use at its lowest magnification range? I would bet that is a very small demographic. My sweet Pathfinder sports a 3-12x44 FFP SF IR. I have used it throughout it magnification range to take pest from 10 to 50+ yards. Most of the time its parked at 8x. My 6-24x50 FFP SF IR atop my Ghost is mostly used in the 8-20x range. For me FFP has proven versatile in airgun shooting, am not speaking to powderburners…

I tried to be a part of that small demographic when I started trying them on my airguns. I’ve also always found it curious that airgun dudes gravitate towards scopes that have magnifications that exceed their guns accuracy capabilities. Kinda strange aiming at an eyeball at 150 yards that you will never hit. But to each his own. There is no right or wrong, just what we prefer. Or how much help a guy needs. I’m sure we all come from different shooting backgrounds. Some short, some long. When I started shooting long distance many many years ago, our crosshairs were so fine they were almost invisible. So I love progress and will try anything as long as my wallet will allow it. Sometimes topic like this inspire me to try a scope.