97% of it is squarely field target. Even the last couple comments have new shooters/field target matches intertwined.
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Field Target is an arms race.
- Thread starter Franklink
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97% of it is squarely field target. Even the last couple comments have new shooters/field target matches intertwined.
The GEAR one starts out with or over time continues to use is tied to either ones Finances or ones Self image of wanting to be seen as Able & Capable.
The 1st "Finances" can be simply NOT having the money to invest in higher end gear or Unwilling too seeing FT as just a casual game able to be played with what they have.
The 2nd "Self Image" is what most are drawn to do ... Have nice gear, be proud in ownership, be seen as ready to be serious at the game.
We Americans especially are programmed to be Consumers & live the American dream ... Own the best or at least the latest & greatest and keep this trend going as BIG BUSINESS relies on the consumer to keep consuming
Long thread ... Lots of view points ... Little resolve or mutual agreement if a Arms race or not
The 1st "Finances" can be simply NOT having the money to invest in higher end gear or Unwilling too seeing FT as just a casual game able to be played with what they have.
The 2nd "Self Image" is what most are drawn to do ... Have nice gear, be proud in ownership, be seen as ready to be serious at the game.
We Americans especially are programmed to be Consumers & live the American dream ... Own the best or at least the latest & greatest and keep this trend going as BIG BUSINESS relies on the consumer to keep consuming
Long thread ... Lots of view points ... Little resolve or mutual agreement if a Arms race or not
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The GEAR one starts out with or over time continues to use is tied to either ones Finances or ones Self image of wanting to be seen as Able & Capable.
The 1st "Finances" can be simply NOT having the money to invest in higher end gear or Unwilling too seeing FT as just a casual game able to be played with what they have.
The 2nd "Self Image" is what most are drawn to do ... Have nice gear, be proud in ownership, be seen as ready to be serious at the game.
We Americans especially are programmed to be Consumers & live the American dream ... Own the best or at least the latest & greatest and keep this trend going as BIG BUSINESS relies on the consumer to keep consuming
Long thread ... Lots of view points ... Little resolve or mutual agreement if a Arms race or not
I agree on all your points in this post Scott.
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I've been hesitant to post this, but I noticed early on that Thomas owners were some of the individuals that took the most umbrage with my assessment that FT is an arms race.
Thomas being the most expensive gun we typically see at ft matches. And the price isn't what's in question here. Price is determined by supply and demand. Mike's guns cost what they do because of the demand for them. And The demand for them is because of their performance. And that demand for them ties us back to ft being an arms race.
Field target = guys are willing to pay for greater performance. Simple as that. What's psychologically interesting is to see the anger that arise from stating the obvious.
Thomas being the most expensive gun we typically see at ft matches. And the price isn't what's in question here. Price is determined by supply and demand. Mike's guns cost what they do because of the demand for them. And The demand for them is because of their performance. And that demand for them ties us back to ft being an arms race.
Field target = guys are willing to pay for greater performance. Simple as that. What's psychologically interesting is to see the anger that arise from stating the obvious.
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There's nothing wrong with the "arms race". Yes, it's what guys do when competing at anything. At the upper levels it's expected. It pushes the limits and expands the sport. For those that compete at these levels it's great. And it's not their job to recruit interest in the sport.
People aren't going to travel 200 miles to plink or have a fun shoot. They do that on the weekends with friends at a dozen locations just outside of town. They are unencumbered by rules, don't spend thousands on equipment and travel and have a bunch of fun with friends and family close to home.
I think there would be interest for a shoot that's more geared to the everyday shooter. But that is best handled locally in places where there is a demand. Maybe we can get some of the FT guys to come and play by different rules with basic hunting equipment in a shoot with a bunch of riff raff that can't afford a fancy rifle.
People aren't going to travel 200 miles to plink or have a fun shoot. They do that on the weekends with friends at a dozen locations just outside of town. They are unencumbered by rules, don't spend thousands on equipment and travel and have a bunch of fun with friends and family close to home.
I think there would be interest for a shoot that's more geared to the everyday shooter. But that is best handled locally in places where there is a demand. Maybe we can get some of the FT guys to come and play by different rules with basic hunting equipment in a shoot with a bunch of riff raff that can't afford a fancy rifle.
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I was speaking of the latest switch where posters are talking about doing things outside of FT to get other shooters involved, and that would be of interest to almost anyone on AGN. Seems like the "FT is an arms race" has finally run it's course.
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iMO Money spent is Not relevant for almost all shooters except? The top 3% ? You can’t buy accuracy before your skills develop to a certain point, and only practice and experience and learning to read the winds will take you to a podium.
@Franklink
when I first discovered field target, perhaps 3 years ago, I didn’t know the difference between a 12 fpe ft gun or a 20 fpe ft gun. I knew nothing about scopes past mounting one and zeroing it.
I had owned Sheridan pumpers, Gamos and Beeman break barrels. But PCPs were new to me and I bought my first one thinking I could pump it up with a floor pump… and take out the coyotes plaguing my neighborhood. I’m still laughing at my naive self.
Field Target, however, totally intrigued me. As such, with plenty of disposable income I began to acquire some of the finest airguns available thinking that I could be a great shooter! Boy oh boy was I wrong!! So I figured I better up my game and buy some of the finest scopes available, certainly that would make me a great shooter
nope…. I even tried mixing and matching various combinations of scopes and airguns thinking that just the right combination was the answer… haha…
obiviously I needed to tune my airguns.
nope - I still sucked.
but being a stubborn lug, and still having enough money to be more stupid, I didn’t give up and began to watch and listen to some really good shooters, and slowly it became apparent (sink in) that I actually needed to practice if I wanted to improve; alas there were no field target facilities anywhere close so I began to buy my own targets and set up a course in my backyard to practice whenever I could.
Wowza-my KZ scores actually started to improve, regardless of whether I was shooting a Crosman with a Hawke or my Redwolf with a Sightron, or my Steyr’s or my Brococks or my FWB’s or my Alan Zasadny specials or my USFT mac1 or even my Thomas, well you get the idea… in the end I discovered that if I would just stick with one gun and one scope I improved In significant and measurable ways, and Much quicker!!
So in retrospect, only the skills that come with practice and knowing your equipment intimately will truly elevate your game… mind you, I still suck… but just not as bad, and I’m having a great time doing it And I’ve had a great time laughing at myself along the way. Perhaps when I can consistently hit 90% of those tough shots I might be able to tell the difference in my Redwolf score when compared to my Crosman HFT score, meanwhile the arms race against myself continues as I am truly my most significant competitor!
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My FT journey was quite different, and is probably a large part of why I lean so equipment-heavy in my opinions of where good scores come from.
First foray was a HW77k in the green laminate stock. Springer. No need to say more. Something like 14/40 that first match. Used that for a few months, scores slowly getting better I was always gunning for just 50%, but....springer.
Next was a Brocock Concept Elite. It was AOAs last .177 in this, and I got it for $500-600, at closeout prices. This was still in the 12x Hunter class days, had to have been 2017 or so. Used that for a year or so. Scores got better, and even won some monthly matches with that gun, but typical scores were 75% knockdowns.
Next was the USFT. Started regularly getting 90% knockdown rates, (and occasionally 95%) at monthly matches, using a SWFA scope.
Put a Falcon X50 on it after a year or so and from there on out it was very rare for me to miss more than a couple shots per match, and occasionally no misses. This combo was my first clean score, Did it a couple more times with USFT/X50 combo. I don't shoot on Sundays so that gets tricky with high profile matches. One year during COVID there was a 1 day match for the AZ state match. I won the Open State champ that year, if memory serves. I still go shoot the Saturday portion of the AZ state matches, which some years are GPs. I can remember missing one shot on a Saturday with this rig for a state match a couple years ago. And similar in other years. At this point we're talking about a $2400 gun and a $900 scope. Not counting bum bag and knee riser and Open class harness, etc.
My FT journey was very much more money = better scores. Of course experience and figuring out how to get those scores was acquired over those first couple of years. That's the knowing what you're doing part. But knowing what you're doing with a subpar gun does not equate to overall match high scores.
Another wrinkle here is that money buys FT-specialized guns. I can somewhat agree that money only buys accuracy up to a certain point because I have a $1200 gun that is just as accurate as my $2400 USFT. But the ergos, etc make it harder to eke out that accuracy from the cheaper, non-ft specialist gun. I CAN score well with that cheaper gun, but it's much harder to do so than it is with the FT specific USFT. The more budget friendly option requires better trigger control, follow through, concentration, etc.
I've since shot a bunch of different guns in field target matches. Some of them very atypical FT guns. And again, can do well with the general-use guns, but it's sure the hard way to get good scores. But when I want to shoot a really good score, out comes the high roller rig.
Ie the path of least resistance to good scores is spending coin for a ft specific gun. And the fact of the matter remains that with $$$ comes performance...as long as the guy yanking that trigger has put in some time to practice with the gun and scope.
First foray was a HW77k in the green laminate stock. Springer. No need to say more. Something like 14/40 that first match. Used that for a few months, scores slowly getting better I was always gunning for just 50%, but....springer.
Next was a Brocock Concept Elite. It was AOAs last .177 in this, and I got it for $500-600, at closeout prices. This was still in the 12x Hunter class days, had to have been 2017 or so. Used that for a year or so. Scores got better, and even won some monthly matches with that gun, but typical scores were 75% knockdowns.
Next was the USFT. Started regularly getting 90% knockdown rates, (and occasionally 95%) at monthly matches, using a SWFA scope.
Put a Falcon X50 on it after a year or so and from there on out it was very rare for me to miss more than a couple shots per match, and occasionally no misses. This combo was my first clean score, Did it a couple more times with USFT/X50 combo. I don't shoot on Sundays so that gets tricky with high profile matches. One year during COVID there was a 1 day match for the AZ state match. I won the Open State champ that year, if memory serves. I still go shoot the Saturday portion of the AZ state matches, which some years are GPs. I can remember missing one shot on a Saturday with this rig for a state match a couple years ago. And similar in other years. At this point we're talking about a $2400 gun and a $900 scope. Not counting bum bag and knee riser and Open class harness, etc.
My FT journey was very much more money = better scores. Of course experience and figuring out how to get those scores was acquired over those first couple of years. That's the knowing what you're doing part. But knowing what you're doing with a subpar gun does not equate to overall match high scores.
Another wrinkle here is that money buys FT-specialized guns. I can somewhat agree that money only buys accuracy up to a certain point because I have a $1200 gun that is just as accurate as my $2400 USFT. But the ergos, etc make it harder to eke out that accuracy from the cheaper, non-ft specialist gun. I CAN score well with that cheaper gun, but it's much harder to do so than it is with the FT specific USFT. The more budget friendly option requires better trigger control, follow through, concentration, etc.
I've since shot a bunch of different guns in field target matches. Some of them very atypical FT guns. And again, can do well with the general-use guns, but it's sure the hard way to get good scores. But when I want to shoot a really good score, out comes the high roller rig.
Ie the path of least resistance to good scores is spending coin for a ft specific gun. And the fact of the matter remains that with $$$ comes performance...as long as the guy yanking that trigger has put in some time to practice with the gun and scope.
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Very helpful insight! And good stuff for us to all take in… I did leave out the age/health factors but they too play heavily on the game.
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I think it is key to establish WHAT version of FT we are talking about. For open or WFTF, buying certain expensive equipment or top of the line equipment is necessary. However, for Hunter, all the expensive special bits and bobbles are not necessary or even banned from use.
Consider, in Open, you are not limited by scope power, so buy the biggest most powerful scope you can afford, it will buy you points by being more accurate at ranging at 80x power. But, in Hunter, you cannot use this scope to its fullest power - you'd be better off using an affordable scope that tops out at 16x power. In Open, you probably need a special stock, something with many adjustments, a hamster, things you can adjust between lanes, is comfortable when shot in an awkward position. But, in hunter, you can't take advantage of such a stock, you just use the basic/standard stock that comes with the gun. In Open, you can also take advantage of shooting specific clothing, like shooting coats and pants. But, again, not allowed in Hunter.
The key thing is you can reasonably get into Hunter and be competitive with a PCP and an OK scope for less than $2K. You do not need a Thomas, you do not need a March scope. As stated before, if you think you need these things, what you really need is practice.
However, for Open (or WFTF) you are probably going to have a bigger spend on the gun, more specifically the stock, along with a bigger spend on the scope. Not that you can't do ok with less, but you will need to buy or build your way into something that's going to work for your chosen position. When you look at guns designed to shoot from position, like a 3-position stock for 3p rifle (the Olympic sport), the top of the line guns are nearing $7K, and more than half of that value is in the stock, and they usually come with sights, which is probably another $700 of value.
For Hunter division, there aren't many points to buy with equipment, get as Daystate Huntsman and put a UTG 4-16x on it, and you are good to go. However, there are tons of points to be bought if you choose to play open or WFTF - suit up and buy those forced position points, get a high powered scope and buy the precise ranging and ability to click so you can hold center, and buy the gun and stock that will work the best for it all.
Consider, in Open, you are not limited by scope power, so buy the biggest most powerful scope you can afford, it will buy you points by being more accurate at ranging at 80x power. But, in Hunter, you cannot use this scope to its fullest power - you'd be better off using an affordable scope that tops out at 16x power. In Open, you probably need a special stock, something with many adjustments, a hamster, things you can adjust between lanes, is comfortable when shot in an awkward position. But, in hunter, you can't take advantage of such a stock, you just use the basic/standard stock that comes with the gun. In Open, you can also take advantage of shooting specific clothing, like shooting coats and pants. But, again, not allowed in Hunter.
The key thing is you can reasonably get into Hunter and be competitive with a PCP and an OK scope for less than $2K. You do not need a Thomas, you do not need a March scope. As stated before, if you think you need these things, what you really need is practice.
However, for Open (or WFTF) you are probably going to have a bigger spend on the gun, more specifically the stock, along with a bigger spend on the scope. Not that you can't do ok with less, but you will need to buy or build your way into something that's going to work for your chosen position. When you look at guns designed to shoot from position, like a 3-position stock for 3p rifle (the Olympic sport), the top of the line guns are nearing $7K, and more than half of that value is in the stock, and they usually come with sights, which is probably another $700 of value.
For Hunter division, there aren't many points to buy with equipment, get as Daystate Huntsman and put a UTG 4-16x on it, and you are good to go. However, there are tons of points to be bought if you choose to play open or WFTF - suit up and buy those forced position points, get a high powered scope and buy the precise ranging and ability to click so you can hold center, and buy the gun and stock that will work the best for it all.
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So a 300$ Aircuda and a 100$ UTG and you are good to go. Ya right. I agree the severity levels of equipment race is less in Hunter it is still there. The problem is NOTHING you do as a match director or club is going to totally eliminate it. Except!!!!!!! Most of us are old enough to remember the IROC series in racing. Concept all same equipment and best driver wins and has bragging rights. That is the way you eliminate it PERIOD.
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well as much as this might be true... you will never, ever, get the diverse group of FT shooters to buy the same platforms! They are way too into self expression; and that's ok.
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IROC cars cost about 65k back in the mid 80s. Certainly less people in the world could afford a 65,000$ race car than a 4000$ rifle....and they wouldn't need to worry about wrecking the rifle.
People who don't actually know certain things just repeat what they have heard. There are also way more people that don't know something than people that do....so that's gonna be what you mostly hear. I've heard about the 80x advantage for a decade....and always from people that don't have one or have never used one.
I greatly prefer a 35-40 power scope over a 80x March for wftf. I've spent a ton of time with both and have never been able to range better with the 80x March...and I've certainly tried. I was lucky enough to borrow one for a month. You'll never be able to convince anyone that hasn't tried.... so the idea will live forever.
The most accurate rifle that can be had will get you the most points....no matter what your skill level. If you don't have skills...it won't get you to the top... but it will knock down more targets.
Mike
People who don't actually know certain things just repeat what they have heard. There are also way more people that don't know something than people that do....so that's gonna be what you mostly hear. I've heard about the 80x advantage for a decade....and always from people that don't have one or have never used one.
I greatly prefer a 35-40 power scope over a 80x March for wftf. I've spent a ton of time with both and have never been able to range better with the 80x March...and I've certainly tried. I was lucky enough to borrow one for a month. You'll never be able to convince anyone that hasn't tried.... so the idea will live forever.
The most accurate rifle that can be had will get you the most points....no matter what your skill level. If you don't have skills...it won't get you to the top... but it will knock down more targets.
Mike
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Scope and gun are the biggest financial factors. The small stuff like hamsters does add up though. There are people who shoot Open without the shooting jacket, butt hooks, etc.
Yes a Revere and an ok scope CAN be competitive in Hunter, in the right hands. We don't see many people stopping at a Huntsman and a UTG scope though, even in Hunter. That's the theme of this discussion.
Positional shots are the most earned shots in field target. You simply don't get the points on those lanes unless youve got some sort of offhand practice routine.
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I was recovering from an injury and found shooting my air gun in the garage fun. So I bought a “good” gun and scope . 300 dollsrs to me was a fortune. And I shot about 100-150 shots a day. Filling a five gallon bucket with lead from my trap. Needless to say I got pretty good with that gun . And Mike at flying dragon helped my tune it. Then I discovered field target. I can hit a quarter every time at 25 yards. Let me try that field target thing .
The rest is history .
The rest is history .
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I wasn’t talking about having people buy the exact same gun. I was talking about a concept when I was really young. We used to go rent motorcycles or go karts so you could have were guns were all the same people rented them when they paid for their event. that would be the only way that you’re gonna get rid of the equipment race because you have egos that wanna spend more than the next guy or wanna have the nicest stuff. This would also be a more accurate measure of bragging rights based on practice time,shooting skills, not on Wallet.
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