Field Target is an arms race.

[Bedrock Bob]

Anyone can go to a ft match and have fun with their poopty equipment. No need to start anything new.

Unless...having fun actually means beating someone else with similarly poopty equipment and receiving some sort of award or recognition for it. It's a slippery slope.

Shooting a match with poopty equipment would be as much fun for me as it would be for you if you were shooting a match with poopty equipment.

Thus the discussion on the "arms race".

Having fun for many people means not competing at all. And that is where (in my humble opinion) the match scene falls short. It's a specialized sport for a certain type of shooter. Just as racing is to a certain type of driver.

Most folks love to drive but they just want to cruise and listen to the radio. They arent interested in racing. Same deal with shooters.

It would be nice to have an equivalent shooting event.

 

[Scotchmo]

“Field Target is an arms race.”

We could say the same about numerous other shooting sports.

Legal shooting aids can allow more shooters to get closer to the accuracy potential of their equipment. Then they seek better equipment to realize additional score improvements. Benchrest is a good example with a continual quest for equipment capable of higher accuracy.

Allowing more shooters to reach the limits of their equipment probably makes the games more popular, but generally induces them to seek better equipment (i.e. “arms race”).

 

[dgeesaman]

???

I apologize for being snippy.

I want to be clear: new shooters visit here before starting and if they come away with the impression that it costs $10k to have a chance at shooting well then:

1) we all lose because they’re mostly going to not even try it if they think it’s rigged based on spending

2)) our conversations about classing and other elements of the sport are going to be heavily jaded by the assumption that very expensive equipment is strongly superior and buying points. And from what I can see that is overblown and overblowing this is harmful to the game. Equipment matters but cost doesn’t establish the leaderboard.

3) we could build resentment between big spenders and budget spenders if its believed to be happening. I think this is less likely but since fellowship is so valuable we should carefully guard against this kind of erosive idea.

I think the leaderboards are well sorted in terms of who puts in the work to sort their rigs, practices consistently, experiences a variety of shooting environments regularly, and studies their own technique for opportunities to improve. Week to week there is decent turnover because not everyone has their best day.

The fundamental observation is that winning shooters frequently shoot with fairly expensive equipment. I mostly see that too. Sometimes very reasonably priced equipment wins. I think the reason for that is there is some enjoyment from shooting better quality gear, a little bit of added performance, a bit of trying to find improvements, but mostly it’s the “if I’m going to spend every weekend traveling ($$) and competing, I might as well use the most reliable and well built equipment I can get”. On some level it’s travel insurance.

I personally think the rules work quite well and if we could do anything to keep costs down it’s to continue pushing for more match locations so shooters don’t have to put out major travel time and money to participate.

 

[cavedweller]

Yep, "expensive" and "cheap" are all relative.

Psychology term sometimes does apply: "relative deprivation" also known as you don't know what you got till it's gone.
Or, if ya never knew it existed or never had it, your not likely to miss it although once you know it existed you may constantly want it.

 

[cavedweller]

Only cap technology when it’s making a difference.

I don’t have experience in Open but in Hunter having a huge fancy scope is not necessarily an advantage.

I think FT is great because the overwhelming difference between the bottom middle and top of the results table is preparation, practice, and skill. Equipment is part of the preparation but it’s not necessarily a matter of buying the most expensive options.

Also there seems to be a healthy dose of correlation being transformed into causation. Shooters who have time and resources to travel most weekends in the year including some national travel are spending many thousands each year without taking a single shot. That experience and practice matters a lot too. If you’re making that investment year after year then sure buy a fancy scope and put it in a fancy rifle. It’s can’t hurt and it might even help. But that doesn’t prove the fancy equipment is a reason for success.

@dgeesaman - you make an essential and valid point.
Not everyone is in a position to travel at will, or to spend money at will. Typically it is an older person, retired, who is free to wander in search of FT shoots. That same older person is also more likely to be able to practice 3-4 times a week and attend monthly shoots.
But
That same older person's skills are forevermore challenged by the onset of age related truths...
slower reflexes, aging eyesight, diminished flexibility and a slow loss of muscle mass and thus kin-esthetic control.
So the older guys with the pricey guns, scopes and gadgets, are operating at a distinct physiological disadvantage from the get go. Only their experience and training can make up for the onslaught of neuromuscular deficits.
You could easily argue that age ultimately "levels the equipment race / playing field".

Ahhhh the joys of youth = when the body don't hurt and sleep is easy. I'd trade my $4K gun and $3K in today for a rested sleep in which my body wakes refreshed and without pain. For many of the ol guys i run into, field target is a distraction from "what hurts today" or it's sometimes easier to say "what doesn't hurt today"?

 

[beerthief]

Toby Keith stole my line when he recorded, “I’m not as good as I once was, but I am as good once as I ever was”.
That line fits me to a tee.
80, next August, I am competition for no one, except myself.
There are FT shooters in our mist that no one, repeat, no one will beat.
There are some golfers like that too.
Until….Father Time arrives on the scene.
I look at FT the way some golfers look at that sport.
You are competing against yourself.
There just happens to be others in the area.
I think we would all agree Tiger Woods would still have had a stellar career, regardless of the club or ball manufacturer that he was using.
Exercise, fresh air, camaraderie.
This is what FT is to me.
I shoot my TX200s with no drop data except what my feeble mind can remember.
I do not have ChairGun or access to it.
I shoot 50% as always.
I do not have (without hindering other shooters) a long enough space to develop drop data.
But (and this is most important for me), I am having fun.

EXACTLY ! well said .
Stan in KY.

 

[cavedweller]

100% agree on this statement.

I'm curious if the saltiness from so many is that they spent the coin, but didnt put in the practice.

Probably not as "stated". Humans, esp men, don't like to feel judged on what they choose to spend their monies on.
I would never tell my meat hunting friends that they just paid $2350.00 / lb for their pheasant meat because they chose to shoot their game with at Purdey shotgun: https://www.purdey.com/
The thing about practice is also a thing about opportunity - access to facilities and targets etc....

 

[beerthief]

There are always heated moments with guys who are really serious about competition.

...another good reason to turn it down a notch or two for the greenhorns who are a bit apprehensive about "competition shooting".

It's a door to get into pellet gun shooting for the average guy. I enjoy shooting against guys that shoot better than I do. But if there is a huge disparity in experience and equipment it's just not sport anymore.

Pellet rifles are so much more than FT matches. Just like cars are so much more than Indy. Shooting needs a lowrider hop and some off-road races so the average Joe can participate. Not new rules to your games but rather a completely new game geared more toward fun and building skills with basic equipment.

You can already do that at any FT match , just bring yourself and your equipment and shoot . Its fun and easy , and you can keep score or not .

 

[cavedweller]

I apologize for being snippy.

I want to be clear: new shooters visit here before starting and if they come away with the impression that it costs $10k to have a chance at shooting well then:

1) we all lose because they’re mostly going to not even try it if they think it’s rigged based on spending

2)) our conversations about classing and other elements of the sport are going to be heavily jaded by the assumption that very expensive equipment is strongly superior and buying points. And from what I can see that is overblown and overblowing this is harmful to the game. Equipment matters but cost doesn’t establish the leaderboard.

3) we could build resentment between big spenders and budget spenders if its believed to be happening. I think this is less likely but since fellowship is so valuable we should carefully guard against this kind of erosive idea.

I think the leaderboards are well sorted in terms of who puts in the work to sort their rigs, practices consistently, experiences a variety of shooting environments regularly, and studies their own technique for opportunities to improve. Week to week there is decent turnover because not everyone has their best day.

The fundamental observation is that winning shooters frequently shoot with fairly expensive equipment. I mostly see that too. Sometimes very reasonably priced equipment wins. I think the reason for that is there is some enjoyment from shooting better quality gear, a little bit of added performance, a bit of trying to find improvements, but mostly it’s the “if I’m going to spend every weekend traveling ($$) and competing, I might as well use the most reliable and well built equipment I can get”. On some level it’s travel insurance.

I personally think the rules work quite well and if we could do anything to keep costs down it’s to continue pushing for more match locations so shooters don’t have to put out major travel time and money to participate.

Story time: after having snooped around "lurked" on AGN for a good while, i bumped into this field target world. Never ever shot a match let alone a knock down gamo target. BUT... it seemed very cool and i loved the excitement i could read in peoples posts. Little did i know just how big the field target desert was - three hours to get to a match. Hmmm? But hey it was still cool and i was shooting an FX Dreamline and FX crown at the time but in bigger calibers. I learned via AGN posts that i needed a .177 so i found a used Daystate Grand Prix in the classifieds and i bought it from an accomplished shooter in Canada whose priorities had changed.... time to get his kids in college. Gun arrived, and scoped and what the hell... this things is fricking heavy and my 65 year ol body wasn't liking it. Never mind i had yet to shoot a target with it. So i needed targets... In steps Mike Smith @Sturkis RIP who was selling 20 used targets in AZ.... ok... i needed a vacation so i set up a drive all the way to AZ to see Mike and visit AOA. When i stopped in AOA to buy a case for my Grand Prix the sales gal saw my gun and wanted it... i ended up trading my Grand Prix for a new Redwolf and they even moved the scope. Mike Smith took me to my first match the next day. He sat with me the whole time. Taught me the basics and guided me through an entire match... now i'm HOOKED. I was a terrible shot (very uneducated) but i had arguabley one of the best HFT guns available... scope i dunno as i don't even remember what was initially on that RW. I toted all 20 targets back from Phoenix to Mobile and my quest to improve my game began. after a few months of piddlin i went to the AAFTA Grand Prix called the Cajun Classics in Baton Rouge... my oh my!
Boy oh boy did i suck... and rightfully so... equipment wasn't the win, practice and experience was! But the people were great and all of them were like Mike Smith, very helpful and willing to talk and teach. Since then, i've eaten humble pie everyday, even when i practice in my backyard as my only true competitor is myself and regardless of the high dollar gun or scope i'm rocking... I still suck.. just less everyday. I was very lucky that @BC moved to Pcola FL and set up a FT game for a year or so until the humidity and VW sized misquitos sent him back out west. He taught me a lot and i enjoyed his snickering when i bought yet another high dollar gun or scope only to suck again. It's not an arms race.. it's an education about ones self and oneself's willingness to be humble and learn. @Nofilters states my sentiments well, read and heed and invest in the sport with your time, talent and energy, be a mentor as much as you can, share your gifts...... only then will the sport we call Field Target grow.

 

[JoeWillie]

Yep I said it, and not for the first time.

Some sure seem to get heated up about that statement. Others are pragmatic enough to accept reality.

When guys are running "bb guns" that cost north of $8-10k, there's not much of an argument against it being an arms race.

When I say "arms race" I'm talking about the perpetual creep that results in ever bigger side wheels, more expensive scopes and guns, more complicated bipods, and generally more gadgetry for the classes where that's allowed, etc.

The arms race is a result of a combination of factors. First of those is that in any competition that is similarly equipment-dependent, you'll see the same thing. Competitors will spend big to acquire what they feel is the most competitive equipment. Another is the demographic....field target competitors are primarily a collection of well-to-do geezers, and many of those are retired, with the time and money to be silly about how they spend that time and money. Another is psychology...if I just buy THAT gun or THAT scope then I'll be at the top in future matches. In that sense, the arms race is as much a personal battle as it is a side-quest competition with the rest of the field. Furthermore, and another part of the psychology, is that it's simply fun to try out new guns and scopes. And who's going to buy a lower quality gun or scope than what they already have? So of course that feeds into the process of continually spending more and more and the average price of a rig in any given ft competition creeping up and up and up over the years. In that sense, some of the arms race is the over-used adage of, "you get what you pay for."

All of that is fine and dandy, and it's simply the reality of the field target game.

The negative aspect of the arms race is those rare times when a newcomer is at their first match and we have to tell them the price of the borrowed rig they're fondling. It's hard for them to envision themselves being part of the collection of field target competitors since they haven't mentally worked their way up to the great financial heights incrementally like most of us have. I say that from personal experience when I was new, and from the exact same facial expression I see when I introduce someone to field target.

As for the inevitable, "it's the indian, not the arrow" straw man logic rebuttals that are sure to come.....There is very certainly a price threshold that must be crossed to get into "competitive" territory. Yeah yeah, "so and so won with an entry level _______________ back in 20XX." Those cases are rare, and speak much to the skill of that individual competitor. In the main example I see used, that guy is now shooting a $3-4K scope/gun combo, NOT the entry level rig that he did well with that year. For most of us mere mortals, quality equipment ($$$) must be invested in if a guy has any intentions of being competitive, then of course comes practice to complete the rest of the winning equation. Hence my earlier statement about how equipment-dependent field target is.

And there you have the arms race.

(And with that, let the online battle commence).

“Envy is such an Ugly Thing”

 

[beerthief]

Story time: after having snooped around "lurked" on AGN for a good while, i bumped into this field target world. Never ever shot a match let alone a knock down gamo target. BUT... it seemed very cool and i loved the excitement i could read in peoples posts. Little did i know just how big the field target desert was - three hours to get to a match. Hmmm? But hey it was still cool and i was shooting an FX Dreamline and FX crown at the time but in bigger calibers. I learned via AGN posts that i needed a .177 so i found a used Daystate Grand Prix in the classifieds and i bought it from an accomplished shooter in Canada whose priorities had changed.... time to get his kids in college. Gun arrived, and scoped and what the hell... this things is fricking heavy and my 65 year ol body wasn't liking it. Never mind i had yet to shoot a target with it. So i needed targets... In steps Mike Smith @Sturkis RIP who was selling 20 used targets in AZ.... ok... i needed a vacation so i set up a drive all the way to AZ to see Mike and visit AOA. When i stopped in AOA to buy a case for my Grand Prix the sales gal saw my gun and wanted it... i ended up trading my Grand Prix for a new Redwolf and they even moved the scope. Mike Smith took me to my first match the next day. He sat with me the whole time. Taught me the basics and guided me through an entire match... now i'm HOOKED. I was a terrible shot (very uneducated) but i had arguabley one of the best HFT guns available... scope i dunno as i don't even remember what was initially on that RW. I toted all 20 targets back from Phoenix to Mobile and my quest to improve my game began. after a few months of piddlin i went to the AAFTA Grand Prix called the Cajun Classics in Baton Rouge... my oh my!
Boy oh boy did i suck... and rightfully so... equipment wasn't the win, practice and experience was! But the people were great and all of them were like Mike Smith, very helpful and willing to talk and teach. Since then, i've eaten humble pie everyday, even when i practice in my backyard as my only true competitor is myself and regardless of the high dollar gun or scope i'm rocking... I still suck.. just less everyday. I was very lucky that @BC moved to Pcola FL and set up a FT game for a year or so until the humidity and VW sized misquitos sent him back out west. He taught me a lot and i enjoyed his snickering when i bought yet another high dollar gun or scope only to suck again. It's not an arms race.. it's an education about ones self and oneself's willingness to be humble and learn. @Nofilters states my sentiments well, read and heed and invest in the sport with your time, talent and energy, be a mentor as much as you can, share your gifts...... only then will the sport we call Field Target grow.

EXACTLY ! NEWBIES read this twice !

 

[Frank in Fairfield]

It's been entertaining to see the thought process and mentalities in some of the responses.

The equipment race isn't something that keeps me up at night folks. I'm not passing judgement as I've been just as active in it as the next guy. Buying new scopes and guns is fun, and the hunt for a more accurate gun is addictive.

Whether somebody disagrees with my verbiage or not, the process of continually spending more and more and buying "better" and "better" equipment is simply an integral part of the game.

Does the amount of anger you feel towards my initial post correlate with how much YOU spent on the current rig you're running? And are you mad b/c you're not getting the scores you wanted out of it? Or because I reminded you of how much it cost?

Lots of comments here essentially saying you cant buy better scores. I'll concede that you can't buy better scores without practice....but will also state that combining a better rig with more practice WILL improve scores.

How many of you guys are still running the same gun and scope you shot at your first match?

How many of you guys are still running the same gun and scope you shot at your first match?

me. But, now I have three of them…

 

[Back_Roads]

Walmart should promote the sport using their airguns ??? LOL

 

[scotton]

Guns in the $750-1500 range can be competitive, as can scopes in the $300-600 range.

I agree. So what's the issue? If a $1,200 rig can be competitive, go be competitive. If someone wants to spend thousands more than that for marginal gains, let them. I can't be distracted from looking at the target by looking at someone else's gun (or wallet). This sport (and life in general) would be a lot more fun if people spent less time in other people's business.

That being said, the easy solution (for the non-existent problem) is to encourage springer shooting. The gun and scope costs for a hunter piston rig is pretty self-limiting.

 

[jdanvers]

Admittedly I haven't read through this entire thread. Arms race in FT? Ok - sure. There is, unfortunately, the same thing in a lot of sports. I used to race bikes ( road cycling - think, like tour De France - but obviously not at that level ). When I started racing back in the 80's one could buy a fully race ready ( and I mean using the same equipment as the pro's ) for less than $2k. Now-a-days - your lucky if you can get a set of wheels for less than 2k. I got out - WAY to expensive. {sigh}

 

[thomasair]

I think the Oregon guys have tried to make a go a a basic break barrel class shooting on a pistol course. I think the bulk of the participation has been from its creators and am not aware of it drawing hordes to the sport...or anyone for that matter.

Kind of like the Dodge Neon Racing series. Let's make racing accessible for everyone. Turns out that racing boring, slow cars is not exciting to anyone....participant or fan.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

You can already do that at any FT match , just bring yourself and your equipment and shoot . Its fun and easy , and you can keep score or not .

That's great. And I may certainly do that.

But that does not make FT more attractive to the average pellet gun shooter. It's not a family event that fosters new participants or gets novice shooters interested much.

We used to have turkey shoots in the fall where hundreds of people came. There was food and a tailgate. All you had to do was announce it in the local paper and shooters from all over the area came to have some fun. Local businesses donated and supported. Volunteers stepped up to help organize. It was something MANY people wanted to get involved in.

There would be three or four shoots every year in my little community and the same in neighboring towns. It promoted shooting sports for the average shooter and grew the sport from the bottom up. You didn't have to buy equipment or travel for hours and it was fun for the wife and kids who weren't interested in shooting.

Kinda like the local NRA clubs did back when their goal was promoting shooting sports and safety in the communities.

The matches are great for the folks that want to shoot in a match. But they simply don't appeal to the average pellet gun shooter. Everyone has an air rifle in their closet. The pool of shooters that would attend a bit different type of event is much larger than the pool that would be interested in an FT match.

If you want to grow the sport and get more shooters interested in FT, there needs to be an attractive entry level game that appeals to shooters and their families. Just like the "turkey shoots" and NRA afternoon shoots of the past that were so well attended. Otherwise it will only appeal to a specific type of shooter with the time and resources to invest in match shooting.

I'm not trying to change anything you guys do. I'm just pointing out why the FT matches are only appealing to a small subset of air rifle shooters. I think the sport would grow much faster if there was a concerted effort to draw those from outside the FT circle into the sport. Simply allowing a guy to shoot and not keep score isn't going to do that.

 

[thomasair]

What you are proposing sounds just like the basic break barrel class that didn't go anywhere.

Most people are not very competitive. That's why they don't compete in anything.

The question people should be trying to answer is why aren't inexpensive rifles and scopes exciting to most people?

 

[Bedrock Bob]

I think the Oregon guys have tried to make a go a a basic break barrel class shooting on a pistol course. I think the bulk of the participation has been from its creators and am not aware of it drawing hordes to the sport...or anyone for that matter.

Kind of like the Dodge Neon Racing series. Let's make racing accessible for everyone. Turns out that racing boring, slow cars is not exciting to anyone....participant or fan.

The lowrider clubs, offroaders, motorcycle clubs and rally driving clubs are going strong. Businesses support them. The events are family oriented. Lots of new people get involved.

Yeah, nobody wants to watch slow cars race. That's why it's NOT A RACE.

When "racing" isn't the objective the pool of interest grows exponentially. Racing, like FT is a specialized game for a specific type of person with the resources to participate. That is why the pool of interest is fairly limited.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

What you are proposing sounds just like the basic break barrel class that didn't go anywhere.

Most people are not very competitive. That's why they don't compete in anything.

The question people should be trying to answer is why aren't inexpensive rifles and scopes exciting to most people?

They ARE exciting to most people. Why aren't inexpensive rifles and scopes exciting to you?

Agreed, most people aren't competitive. Thus the need for a place they don't have to compete. It's obviously not going to be within the FT format. Maybe there needs to be some other way to promote the sport for the average guy that enjoys shooting.