Field Target is an arms race.

[Franklink]

...

This is a key FT requirement that is being ignored in this thread. The fact of the matter is that you will not score well at all with a rifle that is not accurate.
Sure, you will occasionally find an inexpensive rifle that shoots well while another 50 copies of the model will not. If you are lucky to find one, you have found inexpensive accuracy. The rest of us have to pay more for higher quality rifles to find accuracy. (or buy a handful of Barrels/Liners to cull through and select the best; or pay someone to do it for you)

To be highly competitive in FT you have to (at a minimum) a rifle that can shoot 3/8" groups at 15 yards, and sub 3/4" groups at 50 yards. The tighter the groups, the easier it is to score well. - The more you spend, the easier it is to get small groups (that indicate better accuracy).
You can have lots of fun shooting FT without such a rifle by competing with yourself. (I see an Avenge-X in my future to see how it does)

But you will never learn when a miss is your fault vs. the rifles fault if it can't meet the above levels of accuracy.
This is where your marksmanship will improve with practice because every miss will be because YOU did something wrong - figure it out!

If your rifle is not this accurate out of the box, tuning is required to make it so. Some choose to take a shortcut and spend $$$ to send their rifle to someone else to accurize / tune it. Some spend $$$ to buy a rifle that is accurate from the box (EX: Thomas).

We HAVE to set realistic expectations for new shooters to FT. If they do better - Bully for them! If they don't, they aren't embarrassed, Hey, FT is not an easy game - simple, but not easy.

I find the gun vs. shooter debate is a tedious misdirection play by those with a excellent rifle wanting to claim all the credit for scoring well for themselves and not the rifle. Both are required to score highly - an accurate rifle and good marksmanship. Having the $$$ to buy the best rifles is a shortcut to try to climb the leader board as Cavedweller describes. It is undoubtedly easier to shoot a top rifle well than a cheaper (read: less accurate) rifle well. This is the reason people who have proven their skills by shooting a Marauder VERY well move to a better rifle - It is EASIER to do well. (and you have higher confidence in your equipment)

I find those doing well with a "lesser" rifle to be truly admirable. Leave the Thomas at home and show us you can shoot a Sub $1000 rifle to a podium finish - Now THAT is impressive and shows you can do the work. Make no mistake - a poor marksman will not podium just because he has a Thomas and I'm not discounting the skill of Thomas shooters.

...

Yes, yes and yes, on all accounts.

 

[Franklink]

Part of what lead up to me deciding to get this discussion rolling was that I was asked for airgun recommendations from two different people in the weeks leading up to Christmas.

One of them asked me for himself. I had him over to my backyard to try some out. I had initially told him prices go from mild to wild, and you generally "get what you pay for." I let him shoot a good representation of guns, from rigs around $500 on the bottom end, all the way up to north of $2500. I was too embarrassed to crack out the $2500 gun and the nearly $1000 scope and the sidewheel and the riser and the moderator, etc, that would have gotten us into the 4k realm. So he didn't shoot that one. Nor did I admit that I own one that expensive. Ultimately, from his responses and reactions, he wanted to go the buy once cry once route. Which really surprised me.

The other request was a cousins wife. She asked for a recommendation for a gun for her husband (my cousin). This one was a bit more complicated as I couldn't have him over to feel out the price range she was looking to spend. I recommended a gun in the $500-600 range. And was embarrassed to even go that high.

In both situations I felt sheepish about sharing with these two individuals the prices for high end airguns.

I think for many of the field target crowd, the sticker shock wore off multiple thousands of dollars ago. To the point that the ft crowd is in la la land when it comes to trying to see this from a non field target persons perspective.

The prices of airguns, specifically the bulk of what we see guys running at matches, are just plain nuts to the other 99.999% of the population not involved in ft. The equipment race does that to us. It's an atypical journey to jump straight to the 4k airgun. Most of us worked our way up to the hard stuff, like any self-respecting addict would. And that slow burn into the big money territory is the equipment race.

The defensiveness, and in some of the response, outright denial, is extremely interesting to me.

The BOG chairman stated at one point in this discussion that my "comments don't help." Jeff, I'm not sure what you're referring to it not helping. Sticking our heads in the sand about what airguns cost for field target is your alternative? Or the one rule of field target is that we don't talk about how much field target costs? Also for Jeff, yeah, I do get bored and like to discuss airguns and field target, and that's why I started this discussion. I guess I shot a split on understanding what the purpose of forums is.

Anyway, thanks all for contributing. It has been a lively and enlightening conversation.

 

[cavedweller]

How many of you guys are still running the same gun and scope you shot at your first match?

me. But, now I have three of them…

An oddity of mine…. I will often switch between my various Hft rigs, top dollar to inexpensive, just to see if the way I shoot improves or
To date I “have” developed a favorite combination of gun and scope. Unfortunately the favorite one seated with sticks is “NOT” the same as my favorite when shooting forced lanes.
Go figure?
What makes one HFT rig great in the sticks aka weight, can be a detriment when shooting offhand.
The imaginary arms race continues… both on AGN and in my lil brain.

 

[cavedweller]

You make a lot of good points. I'm coming from a completely different environment where almost none of those problems exist.

I suppose in a much more populated area with limited space it would be more difficult. We have a deluxe public range that covers several hundred acres and about 26m acres of public land in every direction. Finding shooters and a place to shoot is no problem here. I suppose I'm unaware of the challenges in other areas.

@bedrockbob
Where do you live?

 

[cavedweller]

Part of what lead up to me deciding to get this discussion rolling was that I was asked for airgun recommendations from two different people in the weeks leading up to Christmas.

One of them asked me for himself. I had him over to my backyard to try some out. I had initially told him prices go from mild to wild, and you generally "get what you pay for." I let him shoot a good representation of guns, from rigs around $500 on the bottom end, all the way up to north of $2500. I was too embarrassed to crack out the $2500 gun and the nearly $1000 scope and the sidewheel and the riser and the moderator, etc, that would have gotten us into the 4k realm. So he didn't shoot that one. Nor did I admit that I own one that expensive. Ultimately, from his responses and reactions, he wanted to go the buy once cry once route. Which really surprised me.

The other request was a cousins wife. She asked for a recommendation for a gun for her husband (my cousin). This one was a bit more complicated as I couldn't have him over to feel out the price range she was looking to spend. I recommended a gun in the $500-600 range. And was embarrassed to even go that high.

In both situations I felt sheepish about sharing with these two individuals the prices for high end airguns.

I think for many of the field target crowd, the sticker shock wore off multiple thousands of dollars ago. To the point that the ft crowd is in la la land when it comes to trying to see this from a non field target persons perspective.

The prices of airguns, specifically the bulk of what we see guys running at matches, are just plain nuts to the other 99.999% of the population not involved in ft. The equipment race does that to us. It's an atypical journey to jump straight to the 4k airgun. Most of us worked our way up to the hard stuff, like any self-respecting addict would. And that slow burn into the big money territory is the equipment race.

The defensiveness, and in some of the response, outright denial, is extremely interesting to me.

The BOG chairman stated at one point in this discussion that my "comments don't help." Jeff, I'm not sure what you're referring to it not helping. Sticking our heads in the sand about what airguns cost for field target is your alternative? Or the one rule of field target is that we don't talk about how much field target costs? Also for Jeff, yeah, I do get bored and like to discuss airguns and field target, and that's why I started this discussion. I guess I shot a split on understanding what the purpose of forums is.

Anyway, thanks all for contributing. It has been a lively and enlightening conversation.

@Franklink - I think you do a great job stimulating conversation, which is very important… but the way we word our outbound questions inevitably flavors the receivers response based upon numerous internal / lifestyle factors.
I also allow people to try my stables “way too many” FT guns, and like you, my knowledge of my guests relationship with money aka socioeconomic status often leads me to judge which toys I let them tinker with because of my judgement of their particular situation. It is what it is. But it ain’t an arms race…. Per se…. It’s a journey of learning from and sharing with “people”.
The Airguns, be they $250 used or 8K new… meh… not the real issue…. They are just tools and toys and for some, a way of life; but what people own and how they pay for what they own is none of our business.
Just my thoughts, right or wrong they’re the ping pong ball in my head today.

 

[Pea-shooter O.G.]

Maybe this thread should have been two parts. Part 1, Field Target is an arms race, how did you get there.
Part 2, Field Target is an arms race, how do we mitigate it.

 

[thomasair]

Maybe this thread should have been two parts. Part 1, Field Target is an arms race, how did you get there.
Part 2, Field Target is an arms race, how do we mitigate it.

You can mitigate it by not allowing competitive people to participate.

 

[Frank in Fairfield]

I don’t know how far this post will go but…
In November at the match in Bay Point (Concord, CA), Martin had a 62 shot match.
I shot with a kid who was maybe 25 or 27.
He was shooting an Air Venturi Avenger (I never saw one before).
The kid shot a 59/62.
The rifle and Hawk scope might have cost $700.00.
Our current WFTF springer world champion is in his 30s.
He shoots a TX200 that he built himself although he can easily afford to purchase any rifle/scope combination.
The kids can take over this sport but they do have to work.
So, for now we codgers should enjoy what we have because very soon we shall be replaced.

 

[Franklink]

You can mitigate it by not allowing competitive people to participate.

I didn't start this looking for ways to mitigate it. As @cavedweller said, that horse left the barn a long time ago.

But yes, competitive people are going to buy better equipment because it gives them a better chance of winning (or they think it will) and their fellow competitors do the same, and the cycle continually repeats. (Arms race).

 

[Bedrock Bob]

View attachment 524169

Thanks.

Jim reached out to me a couple months ago. He lives just up the road. I'll get around to shooting with him one of these days for sure.

The N50 is BR shooting. The definition of an arms race. They do have a sporting class shoot, and that might be fun.

Honestly, the FT matches are a lot closer to realistic shooting. BR is even more specialized, the rifles are fully supported, making the arms race even more important.

I understand competitive guys needing a place to compete at their level. You guys throw yourselves into it mind body and credit card. Your pushing the envelope of the sport and the equipment. It's your game and it belongs to the shooters at the top.

Maybe local turkey shoots with hunting rifles are as close to organized competition as the everyday rifleman is going to get.

 

[Pea-shooter O.G.]

I'm arming up! Well, if someone would stop posting on airgun forums and get to building!
In all seriousness, I get what Cole started here. I can say for myself, I'm arming up because I'm in love with Field Target. I'd be happy if I could only shoot my Marauder with 16x. But I like the challenge and tried WFTF last season. So much so, I'm sticking with it. And after spending alot of time and money this past season traveling, my equipment let me down in the Worlds. I know a magic airgun isn't going to solve poor shooting, but it may remove some variables. And speaking of World Championship, someone may want to tell the rest of the global field target shooters they are spending too much money on their rigs!!!

 

[steve123]

Not a few times, when asked how much a particular gun or scope cost me, did I say = "you don't want to know", or "I'd rather not say", or "a lot", or.....
It's kind of embarrassing, lol, but man oh man I love me "nice stuff that works well". It's the refinement of and more than that the "hope" something can be counted on. I'm the guy that would rather pick a gun up and shoot it rather than work on a gun, mod it, etc.

I had a old friend shoot his first FT match with me this year and he was blown away how nice my Thomas FT is. He shot in our club's unlimited class and he finished just behind our best shooters scores. This gun is just that easy to shoot well.

Back when I first started FT about 23 years ago I was hooked from the first match and over the years "equipment raced" to better and better gear which I'm thrilled to have done. That was part of the FT journey that made it more fun for me. Spending the money was a sacrifice back then and I had to sell stuff to help fund the next tier higher items. I'd do it all again because I know what I like.

Almost two decades ago there was a guy that used to come shoot his Gamo springer at our FT matches and he would often have single digit scores. Nothing against him at all because he was a super nice guy in a unfortunate situation and doing the best with what he had but for me as far as how I think I personally would have left the sport were I in the same situation. Later on he got into a halfway decent pcp and his scores immediately doubled, also he seemed to be having much more fun. We were glad for him.

That's fine I'm guilty but I'm doing what works for me.

 

[steve123]

Bob, there used to be Turkey shoots local to me. I learned regular people don't like it when a few individuals are winning all the prizes. At least I left early but this one friend of mine didn't, LOL. I was like "man dude leave some for them" yuh goofball.

 

[thomasair]

Competitive people and non competitive people don't really mix well in competition environments. When the two groups are on the near fringes of their respective groups...they can kind of exist harmoniously. Even that is somewhat a stretch.

 

[steve123]

Bob, also one time I went to a informal small town get together shoot not far from the AZ Mex border with centerfire pistols and rifles. It was a very odd one?! They wouldn't explain the rules beforehand and when I won a stage they'd say that doesn't count because.... This kept happening. They didn't like it when a outsider comes with a little extra skill. I learned a few things then too.

 

[Kdog]

Just remember shoot and shoot more often even in the bad conditions....no matter what you choose to shoot!

 

[Motorhead]

I didn't start this looking for ways to mitigate it. As @cavedweller said, that horse left the barn a long time ago.

But yes, competitive people are going to buy better equipment because it gives them a better chance of winning (or they think it will) and their fellow competitors do the same, and the cycle continually repeats. (Arms race).

Simply not true ... IMO

With all the Higher End rifles used at FT matches, that sentiment should equate to a much larger portion of shooters being VERY GOOD to EXCELLENT and In my observation and shooting the FT game that simply is not the case at all.
Now I'm not dissing all the folks with great gear and above average scoring percentiles, what I'm saying is to be in the upper 80% into being a 90% or better FT shooter which is typical score percentile for the top shooters no matter class shot, It becomes No Longer the "Gun", or the "Glass" ... But that of refined "SKILL" or as they may say ... The Indian himself more than his Bow or Arrow used.

Does accurate gear help ? .... for sure ! Tho is is not as defining to success as the position of being an Arms race your kinda pushing

 

[Cloud9AG]

Simply not true ... IMO

With all the Higher End rifles used at FT matches, that sentiment should equate to a much larger portion of shooters being VERY GOOD to EXCELLENT and In my observation and shooting the FT game that simply is not the case at all.
Now I'm not dissing all the folks with great gear and above average scoring percentiles, what I'm saying is to be in the upper 80% into being a 90% or better FT shooter which is typical score percentile for the top shooters no matter class shot, It becomes No Longer the "Gun", or the "Glass" ... But that of refined "SKILL" or as they may say ... The Indian himself more than his Bow or Arrow used.

Does accurate gear help ? .... for sure ! Tho is is not as defining to success as the position of being an Arms race your kinda pushing

Yep Scott. Traditional Field Target is HARD, and I find that turns many people away and leaves the hard-core competitors (or gluttons for disappointment missed targets).

 

[Bedrock Bob]

Bob, also one time I went to a informal small town get together shoot not far from the AZ Mex border with centerfire pistols and rifles. It was a very odd one?! They wouldn't explain the rules beforehand and when I won a stage they'd say that doesn't count because.... This kept happening. They didn't like it when a outsider comes with a little extra skill. I learned a few things then too.

I'm sorry your experience wasn't all that you'd hoped it would be.

Informal matches put on by a few guys in a "club" are often a bull snort. If you are competitive with them they get hurt inside and lash out. I think that's a pretty common thing. If an "outsider" rolls in and shoots well there is always animosity. That's just how the odd chromosome works.

I've shot against a lot of guys in informal "dollar a shot" challenges. Some guys don't like to lose. If your on their turf I kinda expect them to get salty about it.

I dont mind losing. I try not to do it often but it dosent bother me at all. The guy(s) I'm losing to l'm learning from. It's worth the $1 a shot tuition to watch a good rifleman shoot.

So the rules (or changing the rules when you've outshot them) don't weigh too heavily on me. You have to expect the old herd bulls to bellow whenever a new bull is in the pasture. Hearing them make noise is half the fun.

 

[Airgunoregon]

To quote Townsend Whelan: "Only accurate rifles are interesting". It is true for me unless I am plinking at pop cans at 20 yards with my Gamo Nitro piston.

This is a key FT requirement that is being ignored in this thread. The fact of the matter is that you will not score well at all with a rifle that is not accurate.
Sure, you will occasionally find an inexpensive rifle that shoots well while another 50 copies of the model will not. If you are lucky to find one, you have found inexpensive accuracy. The rest of us have to pay more for higher quality rifles to find accuracy. (or buy a handful of Barrels/Liners to cull through and select the best; or pay someone to do it for you)

To be highly competitive in FT you have to (at a minimum) a rifle that can shoot 3/8" groups at 15 yards, and sub 3/4" groups at 50 yards. The tighter the groups, the easier it is to score well. - The more you spend, the easier it is to get small groups (that indicate better accuracy).
You can have lots of fun shooting FT without such a rifle by competing with yourself. (I see an Avenge-X in my future to see how it does)

But you will never learn when a miss is your fault vs. the rifles fault if it can't meet the above levels of accuracy.
This is where your marksmanship will improve with practice because every miss will be because YOU did something wrong - figure it out!

If your rifle is not this accurate out of the box, tuning is required to make it so. Some choose to take a shortcut and spend $$$ to send their rifle to someone else to accurize / tune it. Some spend $$$ to buy a rifle that is accurate from the box (EX: Thomas).

We HAVE to set realistic expectations for new shooters to FT. If they do better - Bully for them! If they don't, they aren't embarrassed, Hey, FT is not an easy game - simple, but not easy.

I find the gun vs. shooter debate is a tedious misdirection play by those with a excellent rifle wanting to claim all the credit for scoring well for themselves and not the rifle. Both are required to score highly - an accurate rifle and good marksmanship. Having the $$$ to buy the best rifles is a shortcut to try to climb the leader board as Cavedweller describes. It is undoubtedly easier to shoot a top rifle well than a cheaper (read: less accurate) rifle well. This is the reason people who have proven their skills by shooting a Marauder VERY well move to a better rifle - It is EASIER to do well. (and you have higher confidence in your equipment)

I find those doing well with a "lesser" rifle to be truly admirable. Leave the Thomas at home and show us you can shoot a Sub $1000 rifle to a podium finish - Now THAT is impressive and shows you can do the work. Make no mistake - a poor marksman will not podium just because he has a Thomas and I'm not discounting the skill of Thomas shooters.

As to getting new shooters exposed to FT - Set out Targets that can be shot by .22 rifles (20-50 yards) post the target distances and have an open day. (Most non-specialized family type rifles are sold in .22) Have regulars there to explain the FT game and keep it fun and flexible.

That's what I saw as a necessary missing part of growing field target, improving "out of the box air rifles" into 3/4" at 50 yards competitive low price entry level equipment. China and Turkey/Kral/Reximex manufacture such equipment and we polish, tune and upgrade that equipment to shoot the 3/4" groups in the wind. Some of these products are built really well and can be polished and tuned to preform at a top level.
This is really important to making the sport available for folks who don't want to, or can't afford to jump in at the upper level of equipment... but still want a chance at the winners circle... if they do the work.