Field Target is an arms race.

[Bedrock Bob]

Well aware that this isn't new, read my OP and notice I use the word "perpetual" in reference to it.

What about the facts being stated makes you (and others) mad though? Is it a head in the sand kinda thing? Even for someone like bedrock bob that hasn't ever attended an ft match it's easy to see what kinds of guns are being shot. So it's not like the price tags are fts dirty little secret.
The anger is akin to getting mad if you were told the sky is blue. Yes, it's blue. We all know it's blue. But being reminded of it angers people. Very interesting to me.

I've been shooting quality rifles all my life. I've shot to my rifles capabilities since I was 15 years old. I've used specialized equipment to pursue precision and I know exactly how much advantage it gives a shooter. You can measure it downrange with calipers. You need that advantage to be competitive in FT competition. It's just a fact.

An inexperienced shooter can use average equipment and have fun. They can grow into the sport with their skills. But for an experienced shooter with developed skills it's all about capital outlay. To shoot at your level your going to have to come up with a few thousand bucks and have the time and money to travel.

When you make the investment in money, you have to devote time to stay on your game. A hobby that requires a substantial time investment is only available to a select group.

It's a game for the motivated few that are willing to provide the resources to pursue it. Competitive people are driven to compete and they will. There is nothing wrong with that. But it does limit interest in FT to a very select group.

 

[Franklink]

I've been shooting quality rifles all my life. I've shot to my rifles capabilities since I was 15 years old. I've used specialized equipment to pursue precision and I know exactly how much advantage it gives a shooter. You can measure it downrange with calipers. You need that advantage to be competitive in FT competition. It's just a fact.

An inexperienced shooter can use average equipment and have fun. They can grow into the sport with their skills. But for an experienced shooter with developed skills it's all about capital outlay. To shoot at your level your going to have to come up with a few thousand bucks and have the time and money to travel.

When you make the investment in money, you have to devote time to stay on your game. A hobby that requires a substantial time investment is only available to a select group.

It's a game for the motivated few that are willing to provide the resources to pursue it. Competitive people are driven to compete and they will. There is nothing wrong with that. But it does limit interest in FT to a very select group.

Yes, yes, and yes.

 

[Airgunoregon]

I remember minimum wage back in the late 80s was 3.35/hr. I think it's around 16.00/hr now. My head still thinks in terms of 1988. Haha

I remember when I could buy a house for $10,000 and a real nice new car for $2,500. At that time I was 18 years old and a journeyman carpenter taught by my dad and grandpa. I was subcontracting carpentry and making $20 to $50 per hour... about the same as now but that house and car now costs $500,000 and $60,000..
What's wrong with this picture, and how can it get fixed? But that should be another thread, so don't answer.

 

[dgeesaman]

I remember minimum wage back in the late 80s was 3.35/hr. I think it's around 16.00/hr now. My head still thinks in terms of 1988. Haha

It is 14.40 in Colorado, the rest of the US is at 7.25.

 

[Airgunoregon]

It is 14.40 in Colorado, the rest of the US is at 7.25.

The starting wage at our lumber re-manufacturing factory is $18.75 That's what works for us long term and for the worker. If they work out, they quickly go to $20 plus.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

It is 14.40 in Colorado, the rest of the US is at 7.25.

The federal minimum is $7.25.

Each State has their own minimum wage laws. Many are much higher than the federal minimum. There is a link on the page to the State minimums. In addition cities have enacted their own minimum wage that may be higher still.

Minimum Wage

www.dol.gov

The minimum wage for some employers is different. For instance if you work on a government contract or projects funded with taxes different minimum standards apply. Those wages are much higher and are commonly referred to as "scale wages". It's all about FALSA and there is a link to that too.

Wages on average have risen faster than inflation. With minimum wage rising after Covid the lower wage earners have accounted for most of that increase. The type of pellet rifles they could afford would not be competitive in FTT even with an 200% increase in pay ($7.25 to $15 hr.).

 

[thomasair]

It's quite amazing what some can "afford" when long term goals for themselves or family are not a factor. People tend to get the things they care about most...whether that's viewed as a responsible thing to others or not.

FT is expensive and not very many want to play cheap FT.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

It's quite amazing what some can "afford" when long term goals for themselves or family are not a factor. People tend to get the things they care about most...whether that's viewed as a responsible thing to others or not.

FT is expensive and not very many want to play cheap FT.

I see it as the exact opposite.

The vast majority of airgunners play "cheap FT".

Not very many want to play "expensive FT".

The pool of people that can afford to shoot FT is very limited. The pool of people interested in FT is even less. But the pool of people shooting pellet guns is very large. Due to the cost and intense competition FT only attracts a small subset of airgunners.

I don't think anyone wants you to compete in lower classes. I don't see the discussion as a threat to your sport in any way. The FTT guys are in a rather insulated place and I'm not sure you see "shooting sports" the same way the average airgun shooter does.

Your perception is limited to the boundaries of your experience. From your perspective at the top of the pack I understand how you might think there is no demand for a less expensive airgun event. There certainly isn't a demand for you nor anyone you shoot with.

The rest of us with average hardware are always looking for a little shooting fun and competition. They just don't want to make it a way of life. If there were less specialized events for airgunners I believe they would be well attended and compliment the sport.

But that is just my personal opinion from my narrow perspective based on my limited experience as an average everyday run-of-the-mill airgun shooter.

 

[thomasair]

 

[Nofilters]

I see it as the exact opposite.

The vast majority of airgunners play "cheap FT".

Not very many want to play "expensive FT".

The pool of people that can afford to shoot FT is very limited. The pool of people interested in FT is even less. But the pool of people shooting pellet guns is very large. Due to the cost and intense competition FT only attracts a small subset of airgunners.

I don't think anyone wants you to compete in lower classes. I don't see the discussion as a threat to your sport in any way. The FTT guys are in a rather insulated place and I'm not sure you see "shooting sports" the same way the average airgun shooter does.

Your perception is limited to the boundaries of your experience. From your perspective at the top of the pack I understand how you might think there is no demand for a less expensive airgun event. There certainly isn't a demand for you nor anyone you shoot with.

The rest of us with average hardware are always looking for a little shooting fun and competition. They just don't want to make it a way of life. If there were less specialized events for airgunners I believe they would be well attended and compliment the sport.

But that is just my personal opinion from my narrow perspective based on my limited experience as an average everyday run-of-the-mill airgun shooter.

This is a driving factor for UGT. So all people can compete. Distances given and you can compete with the same .22 airgun you use for squirrels or other small game. With the distances given removes the necessity for a equipment race. Also guys that buy the more expensive scope can only use a max of 25x so it keeps it very even. The purpose is if you can see the kill zone even if it is not as clear (ie cheaper scope) you can still knock down the target.

 

[BeMeUp]

I see it as the exact opposite.

The vast majority of airgunners play "cheap FT".

Not very many want to play "expensive FT".

The pool of people that can afford to shoot FT is very limited. The pool of people interested in FT is even less. But the pool of people shooting pellet guns is very large. Due to the cost and intense competition FT only attracts a small subset of airgunners.

I don't think anyone wants you to compete in lower classes. I don't see the discussion as a threat to your sport in any way. The FTT guys are in a rather insulated place and I'm not sure you see "shooting sports" the same way the average airgun shooter does.

Your perception is limited to the boundaries of your experience. From your perspective at the top of the pack I understand how you might think there is no demand for a less expensive airgun event. There certainly isn't a demand for you nor anyone you shoot with.

The rest of us with average hardware are always looking for a little shooting fun and competition. They just don't want to make it a way of life. If there were less specialized events for airgunners I believe they would be well attended and compliment the sport.

But that is just my personal opinion from my narrow perspective based on my limited experience as an average everyday run-of-the-mill airgun shooter.

What do you mean by specialized events, hunter springer is about the least expensive as far as guns go,and you can get a good scope for 600, awards aren’t important their usually given at Grand Prix and nationals,most matches are just for fun and bragging rights, I go out to shoot against the course, not the other competitors, if I get a top 3 its an extra bonus. Back when I played golf the A player on our team had $1500 clubs I was the C or D man with $200 clubs he could still score the same using my clubs but I couldn’t come close to his score using his. If all targets had given distances and you don’t spend the time learning your trajectories andif you don’t PRACTICE you still won’t win

 

[Bramezy]

I see it as the exact opposite.

The vast majority of airgunners play "cheap FT".

Not very many want to play "expensive FT".

The pool of people that can afford to shoot FT is very limited. The pool of people interested in FT is even less. But the pool of people shooting pellet guns is very large. Due to the cost and intense competition FT only attracts a small subset of airgunners.

I don't think anyone wants you to compete in lower classes. I don't see the discussion as a threat to your sport in any way. The FTT guys are in a rather insulated place and I'm not sure you see "shooting sports" the same way the average airgun shooter does.

Your perception is limited to the boundaries of your experience. From your perspective at the top of the pack I understand how you might think there is no demand for a less expensive airgun event. There certainly isn't a demand for you nor anyone you shoot with.

The rest of us with average hardware are always looking for a little shooting fun and competition. They just don't want to make it a way of life. If there were less specialized events for airgunners I believe they would be well attended and compliment the sport.

But that is just my personal opinion from my narrow perspective based on my limited experience as an average everyday run-of-the-mill airgun shooter.

Do you have any ideas on such events? I think I get it. Not benchrest, not something that may involve ultra precision. Just fun, is that right? Spew some ideas here, and possibly some MDs out there will like and try and run with some. Im always wondering how to get more people involved in airguns. The only events are organized events of Field Target and Benchrest. A club im at does have a speed event. Wonder if something like a silhouette type shoot or perhaps something new all together.

 

[Nofilters]

Actually I belive everyone has known that all along. I don't believe anyone has "simply noticed it recently". It's no secret that these sports are limited to those with the time and money to be competitive. It's always been that way and will continue to be. The fact that it is being discussed today does not mean the concept is new to us.

The point is that anyone curious or wanting to perhaps get involved is initially scared off. That is why UFT I think has a place. Besides getting all different distances to shoot together it will be or appear to be more inclusive to someone that is not really sure of the ranging game or hasn’t been involved in airguns very long. I think it gives these potential future airgun addicts a easier start to get involved. I think this sport needs all the growth it can get at this point.The Full Monty is more for the seasoned competitors that want to get serious about tuning and accuracy. It allows choices so you can either use pellet or slug. Do you use slug for the more stable at 100 or do you sacrifice the longer for the more close range accuracy of a pellet. So the UFT allows the new competitor to feel invited in and the air gun addict his addiction as well. Lol

 

[Bedrock Bob]

Do you have any ideas on such events? I think I get it. Not benchrest, not something that may involve ultra precision. Just fun, is that right? Spew some ideas here, and possibly some MDs out there will like and try and run with some. Im always wondering how to get more people involved in airguns. The only events are organized events of Field Target and Benchrest. A club im at does have a speed event. Wonder if something like a silhouette type shoot or perhaps something new all together.

How about some fun games rather than competition?

5 shot poker. Mexican horse shoes. A gang plink. Chasing shotgun shells or ping-pong balls. Shooting balloons. The same stuff people do with a rifle when they aren't competing.

There are lots of games to play with a rifle that don't involve competition or precision. It's where everyone gets started and the type of shoot most people enjoy. Its fun to watch too.

Some fun reactive targets that arent too hard to hit with regular rifles and nothing but basic safety rules. It dosent have to be structured or complicated if "competition" isn't the goal. The same games you play with your family and friends. Only in a group setting.

Just a good plink off while the big dogs are shooting would attract new blood. Every shooter enjoys that. Very few want to "compete" and be "ranked" and deal with rules about how they can shoot. That only appeals to a certain type of person. Find a game that appeals to the rest and more people will get involved.

 

[Nofilters]

The point is it’s a mix of everything so that gives the novice a better idea of what it is to be serious and at the same time have some fun before they decide what direction they wanna go. The whole point is to get more shooters involved with Air Gunning because the way that it’s been run. It is not promoting the sport to new shooters. This is just a way to promote to new shooters while they shoot alongside experience shooters so that they can get a true feel of what it is from the low end to the high end honesty and transparency, always wins the day. Well, at least it should. INCLUSIVITY REPEAT AFTER ME LET’S BE INCLUSIVE, NOT EXCLUSIVE.

 

[Bedrock Bob]

Back when the NRA was "different" we had local fun shoots all the time. They were usually BB gun and rimfire. Every little town had somewhere to shoot and a few guys to organize. They got help from the association. Shooting sports were going strong because it was growing roots.

Now there is no association or corporate support for training, teaching, local fun shoots or an entry level doorway into the sport. The foundational elements of our sport are not being taught at basic levels. Organized activities are only "clubs" and "associations" geared toward competitors.

It's not the FT guys duty to provide fun shoots. Nor is it the retailers and dealers. But if someone did it would grow the sport. Things grow or die from the roots up. From my perspective shooting sports have some very shallow roots.

 

[Nofilters]

That is what I have always been about trying to grow the sport. I know it is not my job. I have been burned by some of the biggest players. I still do what I can in my circle. I , if allowed to support all the matches that I can. Over the years , local night practices, new ideas (one gun challenge,XFT, barrel tensioning kits, pellet testers, and now the UFT. I have ran matches for 4 years, I have volunteered alot before that and still do where I can. So I get what you are saying. That is why when people come across with negative comments I get a little defensive. I truly love this sport and believe that it is one of the few family sports left. My biggest enjoyment as a match director is seeing 10 year olds competing and husbands getting beat by their wife’s. Plus all the ribbing and teasing that goes along with it. So my point is grow it however you can. Participation,promotion, new ideas whatever postive way you can. Some promote it for their wallet and convey they are doing it for the good of the sport. There is a fine line there IMO. Especially when control and greed rise to the top. That line completely disappears.

 

[Franklink]

How about some fun games rather than competition?

5 shot poker. Mexican horse shoes. A gang plink. Chasing shotgun shells or ping-pong balls. Shooting balloons. The same stuff people do with a rifle when they aren't competing.

There are lots of games to play with a rifle that don't involve competition or precision. It's where everyone gets started and the type of shoot most people enjoy. Its fun to watch too.

Some fun reactive targets that arent too hard to hit with regular rifles and nothing but basic safety rules. It dosent have to be structured or complicated if "competition" isn't the goal. The same games you play with your family and friends. Only in a group setting.

Just a good plink off while the big dogs are shooting would attract new blood. Every shooter enjoys that. Very few want to "compete" and be "ranked" and deal with rules about how they can shoot. That only appeals to a certain type of person. Find a game that appeals to the rest and more people will get involved.

What you're talking about happens at some matches. What I call "the camping matches" are what hooked me into airguns.
Two clubs/groups in my general area put on camping matches, and the camping nature of them isn't actually part of the formal club, just happens on the same weekend. Rex J and his Southwest Airgunners put on a plinking/silhouettes/field target weekend a couple times a year. These used to take place up high in the Mtns south of Luna, NM, but they have now moved to the riverbottom near Duncan, AZ.
The other club is the Airguns of Arizona group. They have an AAFTA match on the third Saturday of each month out in the national Forest South of Flagstaff Arizona, not quite to Mormon Lake.

At these matches the Friday evening silhouette match and the Saturday morning FT match are pretty serious competition....but the down-time shooting of match heads, and steel spinners and Red Ryder's and CO2 pistols and 10m silhouettes and dualing trees, and shooting paintballs, etc. are just as much or more fun than the actual competitions. All this informal shooting is rarely repeated for every match. Sometimes it's popping paint ball's. Sometimes steel spinner and bell targets and biathalon targets are the plinking fun. Sometimes we'll hang bell targets out to 100 yards and plink away on them. Sometimes it turns into a dare/challenge to see who can hit what from offhand. All said and done....FUN.

 

[Martin3528]

Unfortunately, it all comes down to money and time. I have the money, but time is harder to come by, especially for my grand kids. School, school events, hobbies and sports are conflicting also. I think that is why you usually see more retired/semi-retired guys at these events. They usually have both time and money.

To outfit my two grandsons is $1000 each for a reasonable setup. And only one of them is really interested in shooting for any length of time. So, in order to make this a "family" sport, you need to get all of the family involved. $$$ no matter how you cut it.

Even making a trip to Phoenix for a days shoot is going to cost me $200 - $300 by the time you add fuel, food, etc. This is for going to Rio in the morning and PRGC in the afternoon. And airgun shooting is a relatively boring event. It is slow paced per other youth events like mountain biking, soccer, etc.

Over this past summer, we have held a .22RF fun shoot at least once a month at our local shooting range with various events. A poker shoot, golf balls, silhouettes and paper targets. Sometimes a barbecue afterwards. Pretty well attended usually. Just due to the lower population of the Flagstaff area, I would not expect to have more than two or three people show up if it was airgun only. When I do bring my airguns out, everyone is interested, but they are not interested enough to shell out $600 to $1000 for even a basic setup.

How many actual "families" with kids have you seen at an airgun event (Besides Cole's)?. Hardly any. I wish there was a magic wand that could change this, but airgunning is not really a "family" event for the masses. I'm not trying to be specifically negative, but in the past five years or so that I have been involved, that's what I see. Part of the reason I shoot is that I can do it alone and shoot for my own enjoyment.

Previously, I was very involved in archery. Both 3D and target. I saw a ton of families and friends shooting 3D events. I think a lot of that was due to being able to shoot the courses at their own speed (generally), move closer to the targets for the youngsters and beginners, and everyone shot the same target at the same time. Now, that will not work with airgunning as it is more of an individual shooting event.

I am not sure what might be able to change this, but all we can do is try.

 

[Cloud9AG]

Seems like this thread should migrate to the General Discussion thread now that it has morphed into finding ways to get more people interested in shooting airguns.