Field Target is an arms race.
- Thread starter Franklink
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With “deadman”, your position is legal in all AAFTA FT divisions: Hunter, Open, WFTF, Limited Pistol, Hunter Pistol.
I’ve never used a harness in competition. It might be helpful for stability, but then you are limited to Open Division only.
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I think part of the problem is that your argument assumes that Anyone has the ability to win, it's just their access to the top tier goods that is keeping them from the podium. The folks who win do so because they put in the time with their equipment and have natural talents.
When we cherry pick the Nationals as our example, we are pointing to the MOST DEDICATED and talented shooters out there. Shooters who have put in the time and achieved the results which then allowed them to justify spending the dime (including the dime to attend that competition).
At the end of the day, the best equipment in the world is only worth a few points on the scorecard. If your that dedicated (or gifted) and your scores are that close to the Nationals, perhaps its time to bite the bullet, save a few shekels, and splurge on that trophy rifle you've been eyeing all these years. ;-)
I.E. it's only an arms race for those at the very top of the sport, and hard to even argue there as all the top competitors want the top gear anyway. Is anyone at the top of the sport even participating in this broader discussion? Or is this discussion amongst people vying for runner up?
I shoot Hunter FT with a Notos and a Westhunter scope. Granted, my scores are an irrelevant 30/60 average. Even if I had one of the Thomas' I compete against, I'd still be a < 40/60 shooter. I'll learn and tune my gun and body as best I can in hopes of being a 50/60 shooter. If I'm still having fun when I get to that level, perhaps I'll switch to a more expensive FT specific rifle. Or, perhaps I'll just buckle down and get the Notos to shoot a perfect score.
Let's pose the opposite point to the OP: If everyone shot exactly the same equipment, would we see different people at the Nationals? Or would the best shooters still be the best shooters? If the answer is the latter, then what are we even discussing here?
The whole discussion reeks of everyone gets a trophy mentality.
Cheers!
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Actually the point is adequate equipment and lots of work = sucess. 98percent are unwilling to do the work. If you have inadequate equipment and work like the dickens you still in all probability come up short. Give the best shooters the worst equipment it's doubtful they will win. Give a poor lazy shooter the best equipment he will seldom win. Give a smart, hard working shooter adequate euipment he will be one of the guys always around and sometimes or maybe even often at the top. It's about the Indians not the arrow but the masses think they might buy points with equipment so equipmrnt continually evolves. If you don't evolve to some degree you will end up frustrated and eating dust.Some, usually those with a big ego get the trophy mentality, I agree. I feel sorry for them because when they NO longer win they have no fun and tend to disappear. What shooters don't recognize you need not beat any other shooters. They don't count. The match is between you and the target. Simple, beat the target and you will be s winner regardless of what the rest of the field does.
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Saying shooting sports are an arms race = admiting you suck at shooting.
There, I said it. Prove me wrong.
This is me at an FT match last weekend. Basically just a monthly match. And sometimes I suck at shooting. But sometime I don't.
Only the overall high score got this particular trophy.
I'll make it easy on checking up the depth of the competitors at this monthly match: https://www.airgunnation.com/thread...der-cup-match-report-from-phoenix-az.1326158/
And just to be clear, yes, I used my expensive gun. And I did that cuz I wanted to win.
Nationals and GP standings are at least as much (maybe more) of a measure of dedication levels than they are a measure of shooting skill. Ie, East Coast = a bunch of talented West coat guys don't go. West Coast = a bunch of talented East Coast/PR guys don't go.
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Klaudia makes good Open harness's. I bought mine from her in 2017 or 2018 and it's still going strong, although hasn't been used as much in the last two years as it was the first 5 or 6.
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Ok. You got me dead to rights there.This is me at an FT match last weekend. Basically just a monthly match. And sometimes I suck at shooting. But sometime I don't.
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Only the overall high score got this particular trophy.
I'll make it easy on checking up the depth of the competitors at this monthly match: https://www.airgunnation.com/thread...der-cup-match-report-from-phoenix-az.1326158/
And just to be clear, yes, I used my expensive gun. And I did that cuz I wanted to win.
Nationals and GP standings are at least as much (maybe more) of a measure of dedication levels than they are a measure of shooting skill. Ie, East Coast = a bunch of talented West coat guys don't go. West Coast = a bunch of talented East Coast/PR guys don't go.
Cheers!
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Ok. You got me dead to rights there.
Cheers!
Lol, I said early on this isn't sour grapes.
I win my fair share of matches-this topic isn't coming from that place of "woe is me, I never win, waa waa."
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@Reg,
Give THE best field target shooter in the world a gun that groups 2" at 55 yards (indoors) and there is NOTHING he will be able to do to not suck.
Good equipment is very important. Good equipment does not have to be the best equipment.
There are many examples of people using a lot of elbow grease with what we would consider 'normal' airgun equipment to produce very tight groups and thus competitive equipment. Some folks have even built their own rifles...
Really all you need to win on the equipment side is a consistent velocity and a good barrel (3/4" or smaller at 55 yards indoors), then its all about practice (mostly wind reading if you live in an area that has wind and of course positional stability). A great barrel is 1/4" at 55 yards (indoors benched).
I believe I had only shot a single WFTF match before attending the Worlds, it was in Sacramento circa 2014, it was 120 degrees and it was a modified EdGun Matador in 177 (one of two in the USA). I placed in the upper 50% for the Worlds internationally, in the upper third for the nation.
Not bad considering i'd never really shot or practiced WFTF before going to the Worlds (i'm an Open shooter). I could hit all my pure cross wind shots (I made some good charts), it was acute angle leading and trailing winds that were the issue (I had not been able to shoot in those conditions prior to the event). The rifle I shot rifle owns two AAFTA National Championships (Michigan & Morro Bay) in Open and a Hunter Pistol National Championship (Arizona).
I may not have known where to put the pellet on some occasions, but when I did it went where it was supposed to, if the rifle had not been grouping as well as it was I would have not done as well as I had being a total newb in WFTF. Good equipment and no practice produced decent results for my first real WFTF match. I went not wanting to be last, I never expected to be in the top half of the list.
For WFTF practice is even more critical, if you point a really accurate barrel at the wrong spot you'll miss. On the west coast we get a lot of wind so shooting Open/Hunter is kind of like shooting WFTF, we do need to hold outside the kz. Because of this wind effect I believe I was able to do better than if I had come from an area where I was not holding as much for wind. But WFTF practice is more than just wind, its positional stability too.
I've been able to get away with not practicing due to others around me not practicing, but I see the dip in my shooting ability and it bugs me. I spend a lot of time getting things sorted out so I can just shoot well (set up, pellet testing, etc), need more bag time for practice instead of practicing at the matches...
What I find to be absolutely crazy in terms of equipment expense is the cost of a mass production rifle (Red Wolf) compared to a short run custom rifle such as a Thomas. The Red Wolf is no slouch, however it has a scope rail that should have went away last century. Either the Thomas is an amazing deal or the Red Wolf is overpriced and honestly i'm not sure which is true, if either is true... I own a Thomas (two actually) and i'm looking at a RedWolf thinking it may just be a better shooter (more accurate). On the other hand if I can get a good barrel then i'll have saved close to 4k...
The beauty being if you have a good barrel a custom Marauder can kick some butt in field target. And honestly any rifle you buy will need some type of work to get it to shoot well/right for you. I would need to heavily modify a RedWolf for the way I shoot, thats a lot of work after putting down that kind of bank. A Thomas not so much modification needed, but some tuning is needed if you like things a certain way.
Even at the top end of shooters (which is where I would be placed by my peers) it's a lot less of an arms race than you may expect. I think it simply comes down to the availability of good barrels, the better the barrel, the better the groups, the better the score. The barrel is one of the least expensive parts of what we do ($200) and it's what makes all the difference. The unfortunate part is a good barrel is not easy to find.
Then it is all setup and practice.
Give THE best field target shooter in the world a gun that groups 2" at 55 yards (indoors) and there is NOTHING he will be able to do to not suck.
Good equipment is very important. Good equipment does not have to be the best equipment.
There are many examples of people using a lot of elbow grease with what we would consider 'normal' airgun equipment to produce very tight groups and thus competitive equipment. Some folks have even built their own rifles...
Really all you need to win on the equipment side is a consistent velocity and a good barrel (3/4" or smaller at 55 yards indoors), then its all about practice (mostly wind reading if you live in an area that has wind and of course positional stability). A great barrel is 1/4" at 55 yards (indoors benched).
I believe I had only shot a single WFTF match before attending the Worlds, it was in Sacramento circa 2014, it was 120 degrees and it was a modified EdGun Matador in 177 (one of two in the USA). I placed in the upper 50% for the Worlds internationally, in the upper third for the nation.
Not bad considering i'd never really shot or practiced WFTF before going to the Worlds (i'm an Open shooter). I could hit all my pure cross wind shots (I made some good charts), it was acute angle leading and trailing winds that were the issue (I had not been able to shoot in those conditions prior to the event). The rifle I shot rifle owns two AAFTA National Championships (Michigan & Morro Bay) in Open and a Hunter Pistol National Championship (Arizona).
I may not have known where to put the pellet on some occasions, but when I did it went where it was supposed to, if the rifle had not been grouping as well as it was I would have not done as well as I had being a total newb in WFTF. Good equipment and no practice produced decent results for my first real WFTF match. I went not wanting to be last, I never expected to be in the top half of the list.
For WFTF practice is even more critical, if you point a really accurate barrel at the wrong spot you'll miss. On the west coast we get a lot of wind so shooting Open/Hunter is kind of like shooting WFTF, we do need to hold outside the kz. Because of this wind effect I believe I was able to do better than if I had come from an area where I was not holding as much for wind. But WFTF practice is more than just wind, its positional stability too.
I've been able to get away with not practicing due to others around me not practicing, but I see the dip in my shooting ability and it bugs me. I spend a lot of time getting things sorted out so I can just shoot well (set up, pellet testing, etc), need more bag time for practice instead of practicing at the matches...
What I find to be absolutely crazy in terms of equipment expense is the cost of a mass production rifle (Red Wolf) compared to a short run custom rifle such as a Thomas. The Red Wolf is no slouch, however it has a scope rail that should have went away last century. Either the Thomas is an amazing deal or the Red Wolf is overpriced and honestly i'm not sure which is true, if either is true... I own a Thomas (two actually) and i'm looking at a RedWolf thinking it may just be a better shooter (more accurate). On the other hand if I can get a good barrel then i'll have saved close to 4k...
The beauty being if you have a good barrel a custom Marauder can kick some butt in field target. And honestly any rifle you buy will need some type of work to get it to shoot well/right for you. I would need to heavily modify a RedWolf for the way I shoot, thats a lot of work after putting down that kind of bank. A Thomas not so much modification needed, but some tuning is needed if you like things a certain way.
Even at the top end of shooters (which is where I would be placed by my peers) it's a lot less of an arms race than you may expect. I think it simply comes down to the availability of good barrels, the better the barrel, the better the groups, the better the score. The barrel is one of the least expensive parts of what we do ($200) and it's what makes all the difference. The unfortunate part is a good barrel is not easy to find.
Then it is all setup and practice.
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Nice!! It's great to see someone making these, kind of difficult to 'grow' the Open division when harnesses are not available.
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I think if you want to really push an air rifle forward in terms of pure accuracy, buying more barrels for a proven platform is a better answer than buying new rifles.
When a new barrel is a few hundred bucks, it makes more sense to buy three or four and test them to see which barrel outshoots the others and go with that. You’ll still be way ahead of the cost and learning curve of a new gun. Then recrown the average barrels and test them again.
This philosophy works best on platforms that change barrels easily. Thomas, RAW come from my limited experience but I’m sure many others do too.
I think your notes about preparation to shoot in wind and regular practice are most important here. That’s worth several points per match where a rifle that is .1moa better isn’t.
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Just remember shoot and shoot more often even in the bad conditions....no matter what you choose to shoot!
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Practicing and enjoying practicing and wanting to practice is
what's going to make you a better shooter. That includes practicing in
inclement weather
what's going to make you a better shooter. That includes practicing in
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I might be able to get into this position , standing up after the shot would be the problem . Then actually walking ?DEADMAN ...
Sitting "Indian" legs crossed resting rifles Butt or a pistol grip heal on thigh, head dropped way down to get optical view making for a very scrunched up body position.
If able, a very stable position so long as no extremes in elevation Up/down on in play. Tho some can adjust for that too
* Generally those who shoot the position will mount optics a lot further forward.
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Every time i read this subject post , makes me think of Deadeye winning Nationals shooting a Marauder , yes a highly modded one but still a Marauder .
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Yes, that incident was mentioned in the original post. And has been noted a few more times throughout, by various posters. For some reason though, the plethora of other instances when someone won Nationals with an entry level/budget gun and scope havent been mentioned. I wonder why?
I'm sure there have been other times when this has been the case. But even for monthly matches, somebody winning with budget equipment is extremely rare....which is really the point of this whole discussion.
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Just a few years prior to that, Bill Rabbitt won Hunter PCP at Nationals in Michigan with a Marauder (with aftermarket reg) and a Hawke Sidewinder. Sub $1000 total setup.
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Hey Tyler, good to see you chime in. Pointing out exceptions just makes my point.
Factually, what would you estimate the percentage of matches you've attended (any level, local, GP, Nationals) where you've seen someone with an entry level/budget gun(say under a grand like your example) win one of the popularly contested classes?
For me it's 0% because I can't remember seeing the above situation at the matches I attend (mostly monthly club matches). And I do the match reports for some of those clubs so I go over the equipment lists and general stats pretty closely. Sure, guys win with not-a-Thomas, say a $1300-1500 Huntsman with a $400-600 Athlon. But now we're close to or above $2k.
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I haven't chimed in here because I think my own thoughts have already been captured by others. I don't see the "arms race" as a problem...more of a natural progression. And because I've picked up a spring gun on the odd occasion over the last few years and shot match high score or beaten 95% of the PCP shooters in attendance on that day, I can pretty confidently say that I could do the same with a relatively inexpensive PCP gun...but maybe that's an experiment to run another time. In general, if folks spent more time purposfully practicing their scores would likely go up. Not much more to it than that in my experience.
To answer your question, before Bill made the switch to Thomas back in 2018 (I think), I would say it was pretty regular that he was winning Hunter PCP at local matches and most GPs he attended. Not like he won everywhere all the time, but you get the idea. So if we took Hunter PCP as our example, and then factored in matches before and after as well....around 3-5% is probably appropriate. Guys like Bill and Philip are the outliers, no doubt. But while the equipment they used and won with made them outliers, the actual reason they were at the top is far more important and something not unique to either of them...they PRACTICE!
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