FIELD TARGET TECH THOMAS FT RIFLE, 1720T SLUG ACCURACY, WEBSITE ANNOUNCEMENT

[Scotchmo]

...

No Scotchmo, that is not how it works...You really infuriated me....You told me that "I accommodate things in a way to suit what I want and you called me a liar" and I don't take crap from anyone....Either apologize here in this thread or accept the challenge...

AZ

I don't know where that quote came from, but it wasn't me.

In any case - I accept the challenge:

As you said: "...We will be measuring precision, trajectory and wind drift and yes, I stated that the slug will outperform in all 3 categories any pellet of the same mass (weight) …"

OK. "any pellet of the same mass". I use 10.3gr pellets, so lets start there. Anything in that range would be of interest to me.

 

[Guest]

Ten paces?

 

[azuaro]

Scotchmo:

OK, I am glad to hear back from you and that you accept the challenge....Put $15,000 US Dollars or more (you set the upper limit) in the hands of Michael and I will deposit the same amount in his hands as soon as I hear back from him...We will do the shooting in Arizona where the conditions are always windy and we can shoot at either range: At Mesa where the EBR is shot or at Quail Creek where the wind conditions are similar or worse and that is located in Green Valley AZ...

I will be shooting a 20 ft./lb. gun with slugs and you will be shooting a 20 ft./lb. gun with pellets and we will shoot from 10 up to 55 -60 Meters in increments of 10 meters or whatever you and Michael consider appropriate...We will shoot dead on (no hold overs or compensation for wind) and the projectile that has better trajectory (less drop), less drift and is more accurate will win with 2 out of 3 tests...If you win you take my money, a press and a set of dies and I will pay Michael for his travel and lodging expenses to the challenge, if I win your money (deposit) will go to AGN and I will get my deposit back.

I will kindly ask Michael to shoot both guns so there is no tampering in the shooting, for trajectory we will measure bullet drop, for wind drift we will measure deviation from aim point and for accuracy we will measure the 5 shot group dispersion at 10-20-30-40 and 50 Meters...We can shoot twice and if there is a tie a third session will define the winner. The guns will be sighted in at a short distance to magnify drop at longer distances...Wind drift and accuracy (group size) will be shot at max distance to also magnify the results.

I am available to drive or fly to AZ whenever you are, you have until Friday of this week to deposit your money.

I will be Shooting a RAW serial number AZ 001 and will bring another RAW gun serial AZ 002...Provide brand, model and last 3 digits of the serial number of your gun no later than Monday the 13th at noon.

AZ

 

[azuaro]

You said: "10 paces"

No John, it will be 15 or more...But not 15 or more paces but $15,000 or more US green ones...Those are better don't you think?

We are accepting more participants under the same conditions, will you like to shoot? ...Ha, no I am just kidding! 

You take care, stay home and take care of your family....This virus thing is a real killer and specially with people our age...It already took a friend in NY and a young family member who was visiting Italy.

Regards,

AZ

 

[azuaro]

...

No Scotchmo, that is not how it works...You really infuriated me....You told me that "I accommodate things in a way to suit what I want and you called me a liar" and I don't take crap from anyone....Either apologize here in this thread or accept the challenge...

AZ

I don't know where that quote came from, but it wasn't me.

In any case - I accept the challenge:

As you said: "...We will be measuring precision, trajectory and wind drift and yes, I stated that the slug will outperform in all 3 categories any pellet of the same mass (weight) …"

OK. "any pellet of the same mass". I use 10.3gr pellets, so lets start there. Anything in that range would be of interest to me.

Scotchmo:

I will be Shooting a RAW serial number AZ 001 20 ft./lb/ gun and will bring another RAW gun serial AZ 002...Provide brand, model and last 3 digits of the serial number of the FT gun that you will be using no later than Monday the 13th at noon.

 

[Franklink]

...

No Scotchmo, that is not how it works...You really infuriated me....You told me that "I accommodate things in a way to suit what I want and you called me a liar" and I don't take crap from anyone....Either apologize here in this thread or accept the challenge...

AZ

I don't know where that quote came from, but it wasn't me.

In any case - I accept the challenge:

As you said: "...We will be measuring precision, trajectory and wind drift and yes, I stated that the slug will outperform in all 3 categories any pellet of the same mass (weight) …"

OK. "any pellet of the same mass". I use 10.3gr pellets, so lets start there. Anything in that range would be of interest to me.

Scotchmo:

I will be Shooting a RAW serial number AZ 001 20 ft./lb/ gun and will bring another RAW gun serial AZ 002...Provide brand, model and last 3 digits of the serial number of the FT gun that you will be using no later than Monday the 13th at noon.

Do you happen to know rafting? 

 

[Scotchmo]

Hold your horses azuaro,

When evaluating one projectile vs another, best to take the shooter's ability out of the equation.

At 20fpe, I have positioned that the .177 AA 10.3gr is the best choice. You have stated that a slug will best it in all categories (trajectory, wind drift, and precision). But you have yet to state which slug. AA 10.3gr vs slug???. So which slug will it be?

Trajectory and wind drift can be determined from velocity and BC. Maximum velocity will be determined by the 20fpe limit.

The .177 Nielson slug that is closest in mass is the 15.5gr with a BC of .062. At 20fpe that means a velocity of 762fps. Drop is 9.59".

The AA 10.3gr has a BC of 0.31 and at 20fpe, velocity is 935fps. Drop is 6.87".

AA 10.3gr easily beats the Nielson slug in trajectory.

As I said before, some of the low-mass Griffin slugs might stand a chance against a diabolo pellet, but they don't give the BC.

Diabolo-pellet(AA 10.3gr) vs slug-pellet(????). What slug-pellet do you want to compare to the AA 10.3gr diabolo-pellet?

The drop and wind drift are determined by velocity and BC. If you can come up with a 20fpe .177 slug-pellet that beats the AA 10.3gr diabolo-pellet in those areas, then we can go on to precision/accuracy.

When we compare precision/accuracy, it will be the same shooter and the same gun for each comparison test.

And just in case you missed the question - What slug-pellet will you use to beat a AA 10.3gr diabolo-pellet?

 

[Xbowsniper]

Wow..........how 'bout that Easter Bunny......

 

[azuaro]

Scotchmo:

I sent you a PM, let's finalize details of this issue in a private manner.

AZ

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

Wow..........how 'bout that Easter Bunny......

Tom,



In an attempt to rerail your topic, I would like to offer you thanks for the entertainment and information that I have gleaned from your posts and YouTube channel.

Personable, relatable, and informative.



You contribute mightily to the knowledge base that is accessible to rank amateurs, and serve as a goad to ones thoughts of ' I can do that'.



Thanks and appreciation for your efforts!

 

[Xbowsniper]

Chuck, 

Thanks, I just posted another one in the Pistol section.

Glad you are enjoying them.



Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 

 

[Aimright]

Wow..........how 'bout that Easter Bunny......

Tom,



In an attempt to rerail your topic, I would like to offer you thanks for the entertainment and information that I have gleaned from your posts and YouTube channel.

Personable, relatable, and informative.



You contribute mightily to the knowledge base that is accessible to rank amateurs, and serve as a goad to ones thoughts of ' I can do that'.



Thanks and appreciation for your efforts!

Agree with this, thank you for all your contributions Tom! 

 

[Xbowsniper]

Aimright, 

Thank you as well, greatly appreciated. To help guys that need guidance or advice is my pleasure. 

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 

 

[Scotchmo]

azuaro,

I'm sorry if you found anything I wrote in this thread to be insulting. It was not meant to be.

I commend Tom for trying something new. Since no one has shown me otherwise, I still don't believe that a slug-pellet has a tremendous advantage for 12fpe and 20fpe FT shooting.

Until proven wrong, that's what I believe. I'm going to attempt to prove myself wrong. I'm going to order some of the Griffin 10gr and 11gr .177 slug-pellets to test.

 

[azuaro]

Scotchmo:

No hard feelings...Apologies accepted as we privately discussed and resolved the differences...

You seem to be an enthusiast and this is good, and given that you have shown your courage to apologize, I am going teach you two things: One will clarify your confusion between BC's in between pellets and slugs, and the other will be very helpful to you and to other shooters who have had these issues that I will be discussing/explaining...

Since I don't want to high jack Tom's thread, I will be posting it in the PELLETS, PROJECTILES, SLUGS AND AMMO section labeled as "Pellets and Slugs BC's and the aerodynamic point of inflection explained"

 

[Guest]

 

[22Jim]

Azuaro it is nice of you to help educate Scott. He just happens to be a 4 time National Champion and 5 time Grand Prix Champion in Field Target. I don't think he has ever competed with a rifle that cost more than $400. He is a student of the game and one of the finest competitors I know. In following this thread I felt you should have been the one to apologize for attacking him for doing nothing more than stating his opinion based upon his experience. It does not surprise me that Scott was the person who brought this incident to a close even though he had nothing to apologize for. Glad that this dispute has been brought back to earth and I look forward to Scott's test of slugs at low power levels. I'm sure his test will be thorough and enlightening.

Jim in Sacramento

 

[Scotchmo]

... He just happens to be a 4 time National Champion and 5 time Grand Prix Champion in Field Target. ...

Thanks Jim,

7 time Grand Prix Champion, but who's counting?

 

[thomasair]

Thats not bad for a mere enthusiast. Nice job, Scott!

Mike 

 

[azuaro]

Azuaro it is nice of you to help educate Scott. He just happens to be a 4 time National Champion and 5 time Grand Prix Champion in Field Target. I don't think he has ever competed with a rifle that cost more than $400. He is a student of the game and one of the finest competitors I know. In following this thread I felt you should have been the one to apologize for attacking him for doing nothing more than stating his opinion based upon his experience. It does not surprise me that Scott was the person who brought this incident to a close even though he had nothing to apologize for. Glad that this dispute has been brought back to earth and I look forward to Scott's test of slugs at low power levels. I'm sure his test will be thorough and enlightening.

Jim in Sacramento

22Jim:

There are good guns, good shooters and good guns in the hands of good shooters...I'm a bad teacher, I don't educate people because I don't have the patience; if anything I just try to pass my experiences, good or bad...And yes, there are many of US who are state and USA national champions, European champions, Pan American games champions, North American champions, ISSF champions and some others like me also have national and world records on top of several records shot at Olympic sites like Mexico's Olympic center...I don't brag nor post my medals. You get medals for what you shoot not for what you know, but this is not about medals and maybe you want to participate in the other thread where the misunderstandings and his misconceptions in this discussion were clarified, rectified and discussed in more detail...I shot FT in the UK and Spain some 10 years ago informally and did OK, but I haven't shot FT in the US, I broke my back racing motorcycles in my youth and there are certain FT positions I prefer not to shoot...We all pay the mistakes of out youth later in life but I don't regret what I've done...The issue I had in this thread with another member was resolved favorably in private and it is of nobody's concern, NO need for apologies of any kind to anyone or from anyone.

AZ