First or Second focal plane for PCP air Rifles and PBs rifles? help!!

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Renegade_626

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Jun 30, 2016
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California
Hey guys, so I am in the hunt for some scopes and I am confused on what type of scope to get? I need to put one on my RAW and a few on a couple of Rim fire PB"s in .22lr, .22WMR, .17HMR and .17WSM but need some clarification on the First Vs Second focal plane. I have been asking around and i have somewhat good info on this. 

So far what i have heard is this......

For PCP air Rifles that will shoot up to 200 - 250 yards you are better off with a "Second Focal Plane Scope" with a PB"s or center fire long distance rifle that you are planning to shoot at 300 yards and up, you are better off with a "First Focal Plane" scope. Any how guys, i need some advice on what kinds of scope you have on your airguns and if it makes a difference in your shooting, i am also aware that it is "Preference" also and either scope can do the job. Give me some good info guys K? thanks 

Mark R
 
Mark, 

I'm not going to try to explain FFP vs SFP as I'm hardly an expert or even all that experienced but I though these might help get you started with some additional background. 

From Leupold, technical but good background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ytDQom0Wg

From Joe Rhea's Youtube Channel.. I found Joe's videos very informative and easy to follow...and as the title says "Riflescopes for Beginners" I certainly fall in that category.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IJYSmWHfzw

 
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BDX, ok great just what i was looking for. Will check these out, any recommendation on FFP or SFP scopes? anyone have a Sightron SIII / SV, Nightforce SHV or a Vortex Viper Gen 2 PST?
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I tried several FFP's, one of the new Hawke Sidewinders, a Vortex Diamondback FFP, and finally the SWFA SS 3-15x42 FFP. I kept the SWFA...I had issues with the first two that were more a matter of personal preference (turret operation and eye box respectively) and settled on the SWFA.

I chose the SWFA for several reasons, eye box "fit", glass quality, reticle and turret operation/behavior, but had to compromise a bit like no illuminated reticle and a lesser magnification range. I've since learned these compromises weren't all that important to me. 

I would say that the minimum focal distance of any scope, whether its FFP or SFP is something you want to pay attention to. The Vortex Viper Gen2's look to be great scopes but I'm likely to shoot at distances closer than they will effectively focus. So the distance you plan on shooting becomes a factor. Naturally budget is always a concern and only you know your comfort level.


 
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Mark just my 2c and BELIEVE ME I'm no expert , just an enthusiastic amateur with a silly YouTube channel . If you are going to use the reference points in the scope for true ballistic calculations then FFP is the way to go . 

If you are like me a casual shooter that like shooting at lil bitty poop at above average distances then SFP makes sense .

Another thing to consider ... .Just buy a fixed power scope and all the FFPvsSFP nonsense just goes away .

If there is ANYBODY on this forum that has ran thru more scopes in the last two years than me , I can't imagine who it could be . Trust me ...FFP is really cool if you use the math ....But I'm kinda a slow witted dude who barely can count to potato . Fore the FFP thing just doesn't meet my dumb ass needs usually .

Don't get all swept up in the hype ...Great glass , and a reliable scope trumps everything!!
 
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For me personally a FFP scope only has one advantage and that is shooting VERY long range at very small targets . Groundhogs at over 300 yards. At that distance you have to lower the power to find the target and then increase the power to place the shot. When you do that with a FFP the reticle (and hold over or wind adjustments) don't change ) as it does with a SFP. You can do all of that with a SFP but you have to know the data for each power you use. Honestly a good fixed power scope is not a bad way to go but they are not popular. The scopes today with very complex reticles are the 'in" thing. I just bought a vortex 4x16 FFP. Seemed like the best for reasonable money. I'm using it on a 22-250 set up to shoot 500 yards and out to possibly 1000. I will probably try to set it at about 10 power and leave it but I will know that if I have to change power all of my data will not go out the window . At 500 yards the difference between 10 power and 10 1/2 when you zoom in or out in power means a lot so changing power on a SFP scope can mess your shot placement up when it has to be that purcise. You need to know that at 500 yards your 5th mil dot down is your "spot" to hold regardless of your power selection. When you shoot that far you usually are shooting with a spotter with a range finder. If he locates a target you have to find it which is difficult at high magnification. Once you find it you then increase the power. Follow my thinking.

On air rifles I see FFP scopes of little use unless you are maybe shooting pigeons or even smaller targets at distances of 40 yards out. Or for shooting in windy conditions when you need to hold off left and right.

Back to groundhogs you can do this all with a SFP scope if you forget about fancy scopes and reticles if you know your gun and how it shoots and are good at estimating hold ever. If your gun shoots say ten inches low at 500 yards you are able from experience to be about to judge the ten inches then you hold high to you estimate at what ever power. The problem is when the hold over gets over more then a couple inches it gets hard to estimate.

I watched Bob shoot pigeons and he was holding off for wind. He was using the size of the pigeon as a reference . You can do that with groundhogs if??? you know how big they are . Lots of times you don't know so that's when all this comes into play.

Probably confused you all? Hope not . 
 
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After trying several FFP scopes, I've decided, I guess I'm in the minority who prefer SFP. Each FFP I tried had a reticle that, for me, was either too small at lower powers, and/or too thick at higher powers. I understand their value, at least theoretically, for long distance hunting and range estimation. I say theoretically because: one; you have to know your target size to within a small margin of error, and, two; if ranging is that critical to a given hunting situation, I'll have my laser range finder with me. I know the math isn't complicated, but I'm pretty simple minded. I don't want to stop for a math exercise while trying to watch my target and figure how to arrange a rest and get off a shot. Who was it that once said......"the perfect solution to a non-existent problem"? The only FFP I now own is an Athlon Helos. It works as claimed, but neither the FFP feature nor the illuminated reticle have value for my uses, and I'll probably sell it. For the same money, less size and weight, I can have a SFP scope that does what I need. Technology......sometimes I think we outsmart ourselves.
 
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After trying several FFP scopes, I've decided, I guess I'm in the minority who prefer SFP. Each FFP I tried had a reticle that, for me, was either too small at lower powers, and/or too thick at higher powers. I understand their value, at least theoretically, for long distance hunting and range estimation. I say theoretically because: one; you have to know your target size to within a small margin of error, and, two; if ranging is that critical to a given hunting situation, I'll have my laser range finder with me. I know the math isn't complicated, but I'm pretty simple minded. I don't want to stop for a math exercise while trying to watch my target and figure how to arrange a rest and get off a shot. Who was it that once said......"the perfect solution to a non-existent problem"? The only FFP I now own is an Athlon Helos. It works as claimed, but neither the FFP feature nor the illuminated reticle have value for my uses, and I'll probably sell it. For the same money, less size and weight, I can have a SFP scope that does what I need. Technology......sometimes I think we outsmart ourselves.

I agree with the acception that the math should be simpler with the FFP . I've got the vortex coming next week and I'll see what I think. If the reticle is too thick at higher powers that would be a problem for me. Nice thing about midway we can return. You are correct as well some times we over complicate things . BUT it's fun to play with our big boy toys isn't it?
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I’m in agreement with Mr Rhea on the “shootin lil bitty poop” and preferring a SFP for that. It also seems that it’s preferred for field target and paper targets at least out to 100 yards because it generally allows for better aiming precision due to the fact the reticle does not “grow” with increasing magnification. But at ever increasing distances you’ll run out of mildots at high magnification so you have to back off to have a proper holdover aiming dot. Not a big deal because a prepared shooter will have a range card.

i tend to think of FFP as being more suited to powderburner use at great distances, either for large game with a large kill zone or smaller varmints where any roughly center mass hit will deliver sufficient damage to ensure a clean kill.

i hunt small game and pests very much like I punch paper...trying to hit a tiny dot that corresponds to a path through the center of the brain so I like to use as much aiming precision as possible, check my range card do the proper holdover, then steady myself for a careful shot. If I can’t do that, I pass on it. Bad things happen if I rush it...I’m disgusted with myself if I injure an animal, even a rat.
 
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Hi,

For a Human sized target, that's moving, and that has friends that may need to be shot quickly after the first shot, at typical battle ranges of 20 to 1400m, the horus/tree reticle in FFP is really awesome, magnification then becomes a factor of the maximum range of your cartridge, the reticle at high mag is made for the vital zone of a human, not for precision target shooting. Sometimes PB shooters just don't get why we need high mag for some situations.

For airgunners the story is very different, typically we try for a 10 mm target zone at 100m and there about. We also have hunters and target shooters so a variable scope is really cool, 10x for hunting where shot placement is important and 24-50x for when your target area becomes 4mm or a crosshair on paper at 100m. Aim small miss small, but if you can't actually see what you're aiming at (think large reticle or low mag) then you have a problem.

The math thing is a bummer, I understand everything about it but can't work things out quickly enough so Strelok pro on my phone works out the firing solution for me no matter what the magnification or range or FFP or SFP, I also click to my drop rather than hold, with that approach magnification makes no difference as I am holding on the crosshair and allowing for windage. Dope cards a great too, but conditions change every minute so I just let technology check all that, and my prey never shoots back so I have enough time to input the data into my phone:)

I am in no way saying that I wouldn't buy that Nightforce 7-35 F1, I would in a heartbeat if I had the cash, but I would be buying the ED glass, the repeatable turrets and the option to configure it with an industry leading reticle. Those features can be had in both second and first plane scopes.

The new Athlon ETR looks like a great compromise between reticle fineness and type given that it is FFP and the magnification range will make most happy, but the minimum focus on max mag is 25 yards, if you need max mag at less than 25 yards then you need a scope for that purpose, of you need to turn the mag down and get a wider field of view...

Also don't forget the mounts on airguns, if you like to shoot past 100, and you want your optical centre of view to be at that aimpoint, or if you want to get the maximum range of clicks for holdover then something that is adjustable, or that has about 15 to 20 MOA of cant built in is nice to have.
 
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Thanks. Confusing stuff. FFP, SFP, MOA, Mildot, BC, POI, FFH, TSS, PCP. If I had known it was going to be so complicated, i never would have started."

~~~~~~

Brotha, I feel ya.

After reading all the above technical jargon, I feel insecure. Like I'm somehow missing something.

Can't I just go sit on my deck with my air rifle and tripod and shoot the chipmunks off my birdfeeder without consulting Strelok(sp?).
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Joe W. Rhea "Don't get all swept up in the hype …Great glass , and a reliable scope trumps everything!!" 
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1538234260_5370205525baf9794e432e4.64893865_Unknown.jpeg


there are times when Confucius comes to mind...



Skip-in-WV "With a FFP scope if you have a holdover of 2 dots at a specified distance at 10X the holdover will be the same at 20X if the distance is the same."
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The essence and value of an FFP scope. 

bubblerboy64 "...lower the power to find the target and then increase the power to place the shot.
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Exactly why I'm not worried about the size of the reticle while I'm panning for a target...

elh0102 "Each FFP I tried had a reticle that, for me, was either too small at lower powers, and/or too thick at higher powers."
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I have to say that this is a challenge with FFP scopes and a matter of personal choice. You have to accept that FFP scopes reticles are small/tiny at their lower magnifications...if that bothers you then start looking at good fixed or variable SFP scopes with Mr. Rhea's advice in mind.

I tried three FFP scopes, a Hawke Sidewinder, a Vortex Diamondback, and an SWFA. Of those three the Hawke's reticle was the worst with respect to this issue...it was great at lower/middle magnifications but WAY to thick for my tastes at its higher magnifications...at its highest power it was so thick it would blot out "lil bitty poop" (Joe does have a succinct way with it). My guess is Hawke knew this would be an issue for a lot of gunners and tried to find a middle ground but honestly I think they screwed the pooch doing so.

Both the Vortex Diamondback and the SWFA have thin reticles at their highest magnification...loved them both, but I kept the SWFA. It meets all my criteria...to my eye and my purposes its a great scope and thats what really counts...not what some other guy has, or claims as cats ass, simply a scope with features I can actually use, good glass, and extremely reliable operation within a budget I can live with.






 
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These are all really good responses and just the info I was looking for. The first couple of Videos BDX posted on here where real good. I also did look up some more vids on youtube in regards to this subject. I indeed have been asking around elsewhere in regards to this topic, I got off the phone with Vortex Optics yesterday and asked them this same question. They clarified that if you choose First Focal Plane, the reticle might be too small to see at closer distances and at large distances it can obscure the target at high magnification depending on the reticle that you get with your scope. The Reticle is a BIG part when choosing a FFP scope, got to know how read it and dial in for it and as mentioned previously there is some "Math" behind this. A lot of military people used FFP and they are used on all the very pricy scopes. I have 3 FFP plane scopes, the SWFA 3 - 15 x 42 and two Athlon Optics a Helos and a Midas in MOA and MIL ( Both are amazing and don't blurr anything out at large magnifications, very good up close as well ). 

For me guys i think i am leaning towards SFP and the scope i am thinking of pulling the trigger on is a Sightron SIII or an SV model in really high magnification 10 - 50x power with the MOA-H reticle. Second choice is the Vortex Golden eagle SFP which magnifies to 60x. I do already own an SWFA in FFP and absolutely love it but sadly it goes up to 15x magnification and precisely why i have it mounted on a Diana 56th springer, which i shoot frequently up to 50 yards and sometimes 100 yards. As for by Rime fire PB's i am looking at a couple of FFP scopes, keeping in mind the reticle on these. Any more advice or scope recommendations in either FFP or SFP is welcomed guys, really really good info on this topic. 



Mark
 
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