Flag recommendation

[XSUltimate]

The science would say that the longer an external force is pushing against the pellet the father it will drift during its flight to its intended target. The wind will be pushing against the pellet for 86 yards from the muzzle but only for 5 yards near the target. Does that help!
Thx
Dan

 

[thomasair]

Igolf has it correct. Instead of a pellet, picture a bowling ball that gets pushed off course early by an external force. Once the force is removed….the ball will not correct it’s path . It’s course is altered and it will continue to roll away further and further from its original path.

To demonstrate this process…..go get a leaf blower and hold it on full blast at the muzzle and take a shot. Then go and try the blower 6 inches from the target.

It will be very obvious.

 

[JimNM]

Keep in mind that the air acts as a fluid. It moves at different speeds and directions constantly. All too often i talk to shooters that believe the air is the same from point to point rather than being a chaotic swirling mess.

Where legal, I would suggest that you put out smoke pots or smoke bombs with different colors at different distances. Support the smoke pots about 5 feet off the ground. Watch how the smoke moves differently at different locations. The air moves quite drastically differently a few feet above the ground compared to down in the weeds.

Consider that the bench is about 36" above the ground level, and the line of flight will be above the bench level due to the parabolic trajectory of the pellet.

 

[okieairgunner]

I think it has to do with time over distance. Push the pellet a bit exiting the muzzle and it has a greater amount of time and distance to move further and further off course than it does if you pushed it off course 20’ from the target. Granted I am no ballistic engineer but just using plain old country common sense logic.

That makes sense. I didn’t think about it like that.

 

[thomasair]

Bubble makers are educational too…and possible less annoying to others.

 

[okieairgunner]

Igolf has it correct. Instead of a pellet, picture a bowling ball that gets pushed off course early by an external force. Once the force is removed….the ball will not correct it’s path . It’s course is altered and it will continue to roll away further and further from its original path.

To demonstrate this process…..go get a leaf blower and hold it on full blast at the muzzle and take a shot. Then go and try the blower 6 inches from the target.

It will be very obvious.

Thank you so much for the visual. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[XSUltimate]

For 50y….3 flags spaced at 15,50, and 110 feet will allow each flag to represent an equal “zone” of wind drift. As you move away from the bench….each flag will corner a larger area.

I personally cannot interpret any more information than 3 flags can provide.

If there is a funnel area on the range where there is a break in a berm or something like that. It’s good to maybe put an extra flag there.

Wish I knew more before the match than all that I am learning after Mike! In the lane I was in, I was shooting over a 3 foot tall berm at about 45 yards and there was another 3 foot tall berm about 40 feet long that ended at the right side of my target at about 80 yards. There were many winds changes and some verticals to fight the entire match. At 75 yards I finished shooting with 18 minutes left both cards. At 100, I snapped off the last shot at 29 minutes so only 1 minute left. Challenges o'plenty and I thought there was no way I shot very well. I was lucky enough the others struggled a little more than I did
Thx
Dan

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

Keep in mind that the air acts as a fluid. It moves at different speeds and directions constantly. All too often i talk to shooters that believe the air is the same from point to point rather than being a chaotic swirling mess.

Where legal, I would suggest that you put out smoke pots or smoke bombs with different colors at different distances. Support the smoke pots about 5 feet off the ground. Watch how the smoke moves differently at different locations. The air moves quite drastically differently a few feet above the ground compared to down in the weeds.

Consider that the bench is about 36" above the ground level, and the line of flight will be above the bench level due to the parabolic trajectory of the pellet.

The effects of the wind definitely change as you progress through a 100 yard card.

I have noticed drastic differences in wind effect going from the sighter box to the top row on an ASA target.
With the flags staying consistent, going from the sighter box to the top row, would one be safe to assume that the effect is different because my aim point has changed by 3 feet , or am I missing small changes somehow?
My thought is that with my flags being 36" off the ground, the values I am seeing demonstrated by the flags are completely different at 18 inches off the ground correct?

Would it be worthwhile to have a staggered height arrangement on the flags?

I would also like to hear any comments from the board on flag sensitivity, such as preferences or findings that support setting flags up one way VS another.
Should I be trying to watch the vanes for the small change, assuming that my flags are balanced to catch them, or rely on tail movement to pick them up before the vanes catch it?
I THINK that I know the answer, but I also think that I know many things that are proven to be in error.......


I could be all wet with my suppositions, but I am actually learning stuff from you who are better versed than I, so I ask for your forbearance.

 

[igolfat8]

I have tried using 3 flags but now I mostly only use two flags as 3 are just too much info for my brain to process. I see the color of the flag and that tells me direction and them my focus switches to the tail as they tells me more about wind speed and how much to hold off. Lou made a comment earlier that he and others use dual vane flags as they provide more info. This got me to thinking more about that as I only use a single vane flag now and I have a hard time seeing the correct angle that the wind is blowing unless I raise my head off the scope and use both eyes. So when I looked at pictures of the dual vanes I could see more or less of the dual colors at different angles and I think that would tell more about wind direction than a single vane. Is that logical thinking?

 

[thomasair]

Yes…the purpose of the dual vanes is to be able to easily recognize angles. Angles are the key to keeping vertical under control. As someone said earlier….simply holding straight left for a full value left to right will probably get you a vertical miss.

I’ll say this again. 100y with pellets is not a high percentage readable distance. You will be wrong a lot if you just rely on flags for your shot information. 50y is near 100% readable. If you try to learn wind and flags at 100y….you will never learn much. You will be confused more often than not.

If you try to learn flags at a range with lots of wind impediments….you can very confused even at 50y. The best thing you can do is learn in an open area.

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

Thanks for restating the learn at 50 yards mantra again. I will make it stick this time, I promise.....

I am convinced that my next flag purchase will be dual vanes as well. While I am OK at reading the angle from the bi colored front ball, I can definitely see the ease of getting an indication from the dual vanes.

Thanks to all for sharing, this is valuable info.

 

[Loufish]

Oh, and learn to shoot with both eyes open. Your brain will learn to see both images at nearly the same time to see the instantaneous switch.

 

[XSUltimate]

Oh, and learn to shoot with both eyes open. Your brain will learn to see both images at nearly the same time to see the instantaneous switch.

That is very difficult for me since I shoot right handed but my left eye is my dominant. BUT, I keep trying
Usually I lose my sight picture of the target once I open my left eye but occasionally I can see with both. I keep trying to see if I can condition my vision.
Thx
Dan

 

[Joef]

The effects of the wind definitely change as you progress through a 100 yard card.

I have noticed drastic differences in wind effect going from the sighter box to the top row on an ASA target.
With the flags staying consistent, going from the sighter box to the top row, would one be safe to assume that the effect is different because my aim point has changed by 3 feet , or am I missing small changes somehow?
My thought is that with my flags being 36" off the ground, the values I am seeing demonstrated by the flags are completely different at 18 inches off the ground correct?

Would it be worthwhile to have a staggered height arrangement on the flags?

I would also like to hear any comments from the board on flag sensitivity, such as preferences or findings that support setting flags up one way VS another.
Should I be trying to watch the vanes for the small change, assuming that my flags are balanced to catch them, or rely on tail movement to pick them up before the vanes catch it?
I THINK that I know the answer, but I also think that I know many things that are proven to be in error.......


I could be all wet with my suppositions, but I am actually learning stuff from you who are better versed than I, so I ask for your forbearance.

I shoot strictly BR for the last 20yrs and have used a lot of different flags, single vanes with and without props and double vane flags but always go back to double vane wicks. I know that a lot of folks do not like them because of traveling, take up to much room.

I use 3-4 flags staggered in height running on the left side of target frame, this way I can easily see flags looking through scope at 50y. For myself using double vane flags makes the job behind the rifle much easier. I don't use windicators, the most important thing I watch is the tails. In lighter conditions they will react quicker than the vanes when there is a switch. I do use 2 tails but also have them with single tails

One can get real OCD been there. There is no easy way, you just get out there and learn. One thing that helped me a lot in the beginning was keeping a shooting journal. Writing the conditions down for that day but always reinforcing your self at the end with positive statement.

Your not going to learn anything without flags, you will just keep going around in circles. The advice given in previous posts can not get any better.

Joe

 

[XSUltimate]

Thanks for your feedback Joe, I was hoping you would share some of your wisdom! Ray laughed with me when I ordered long tails!!!
Thx
Dan

 

[Loufish]

And shoot sighters during a competition. A lot of them. Sighters do not lie

 

[igolfat8]

Dan,
Since you are left eye dominant have you tried shooting left handed?

 

[XSUltimate]

Not really, I have to stop walking if I want to chew my gum so I am kinda stuck shooting righty! But thanks for the suggestion!
Thx
Dan

 

[igolfat8]

I get it. I’d have difficulty too.

 

[JEFFPPC]

As a long time centerfire bench rest shooter from 100 to 1000 yards I will add some things I have learned shooting over flags for 30 plus years. #1 Always shoot over flags. Testing, practicing, competing, whatever, flags always. #2 Bench Manners, How you set up your rest and bags plus handle the gun. Flags won't cover for poor bench manners. #3 I like to stagger the flags low to higher in a slight curve starting close to the bench curving out then back into the target. 3 flags for 50 and 4 for 100. You can only process so much information. # 4 I have arrived at a match with the wrong or no ammo and/or gun. I have had the wrong rest or bags. But I have never forgot my flags or my timer. #5 The flags will become lost in the nagging fear of running out of time if you don't know the time. If your afraid of running out of time and shoot by guessing at the wrong condition.....you lose. # 6 When you go to the line to shoot you should have an idea of what the prevailing condition is from watching your flags before hand instead of just standing around b.s.ing and collecting dust.#7 Ok you have flags and a clock. You should begin by figuring out how long your condition holds, can you get off more than one shot, and how long till it returns these are often very repeatable.#8 Don't try to shoot in a reverse condition unless your going to be out of time. During warmups take a couple shots in the reverse so if you must shoot it you have an idea where to hold. #9 If possible keep flags close to the line of flight path. #10 Always have the same weight of ribbon on all flags. I like cold weather flagging tape. Sailtails are too heavy and regular flagging tape to light for my taste.#11 Although you normally try to space flags evenly any obstacle in or close such as a bush, shooting over a berm.....deserves a flag. # 12 I personally Don't like over sensitive flags that are always twitching, although basically flags should be balanced sometimes an extra couple inches of tail will calm them down.#13 I change colors depending on the time of year and location. It's called spray paint. In the centerfire game many try to make it about the gun. I call b.s. He who reads the conditions correctly with a properly tuned gun and ammunition wins. Hope this helps.