Flyers.
- Thread starter muradtexas
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Yes, flyers really haven’t been an issue with me except for the .22 RD Monster 25.4 grain.
I’ve been told by one in particular that the pellet is NEVER the cause of the flyer, and that it’s ALWAYS the barrel. However, he does admit by his actions that some lots are better than others, since when he finds one that shoots well for him, he buys cases of that lot. So that in and of itself tells me that it’s sometimes the pellet and not always the barrel.
My .22 Red Wolf would shoot good enough for 230s on 100Y EBR targets, then I’d get a flyer in the 4 or 5 ring. Sorting lowered the occurrence from 1 in 15 to 1 in 30, but I still got them, sometimes at the worst time.
The flyer situation is why I switched from .22 to .25 Heavy. Maybe not quite as accurate, but no flyers. Better overall scores. Hopefully these new RDMs and maybe the new 28 grain will fix the flyer issue. I still have the .22 RW if it does.Upvote 0
Clamp it, if fliers cease, then it's the shooter. If they continue, then you have eliminated one possibility.
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I attribute the usual size of a group as Just Me, and my goal is to reduce it as practice continues over the long term. A stray that is a little outside of the group I assume is Just Me, too.
But any farther-out-of-normal-span shot that I don’t know was my own fault always always evokes a HUH or WTF reaction. Some bad shots I know will be bad right as I’m pulling the trigger, which would be a called shot, though the call is an improper “Oh, sht!”
Months ago, after reading about all the pellet sorting going on, I began inspecting my pellets. I only looked for visual defects such as deformed skirts or swarf stuck inside them, no weighing or measuring involved. I did indeed find a few deformities and debris, which is when I decided to inspect all pellets from then on.
I still consider unattributable bad shots that are not waaaay off to be Just Me.
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As the original poster indicated that he was getting about 1 flyer per every 5-shot group, I suggest eliminating as potential causes:
#1: Moderator clipping - (inspect mod, mark exit with nail polish or sharpie to check for pellet contact upon exit, try a different mod or no mod)
#2: Magazine deformation of pellet - (use thumb to load pellets directly into barrel)
If flyers persist at same rate following checking these two things…
… then you are into the “its the pellets” vs. “its the barrel” vs. “its the tune” vs. “maybe its the coffee” quandary discussed by many knowledgeable shooters above.
-Ed
#1: Moderator clipping - (inspect mod, mark exit with nail polish or sharpie to check for pellet contact upon exit, try a different mod or no mod)
#2: Magazine deformation of pellet - (use thumb to load pellets directly into barrel)
If flyers persist at same rate following checking these two things…
… then you are into the “its the pellets” vs. “its the barrel” vs. “its the tune” vs. “maybe its the coffee” quandary discussed by many knowledgeable shooters above.
-Ed
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ok , got me thinking now , remember that perfect 24/24X i shot last year ? That was shot 24 shots in a row , no flyers and/or sighters on another target .
Shot with my FWB 600 . right out of the tin no selection , i do not recall even looking at the pellet until i was loading into the barrel . I do take care loading the pellets . , i have never repeated that target , close but not 24/24x . Maybe next time i will inspect/sort and measure 24 pellets and try again .
EDIT: probably shoot a 19 or something hahaha
Shot with my FWB 600 . right out of the tin no selection , i do not recall even looking at the pellet until i was loading into the barrel . I do take care loading the pellets . , i have never repeated that target , close but not 24/24x . Maybe next time i will inspect/sort and measure 24 pellets and try again .
EDIT: probably shoot a 19 or something hahaha
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I shot some more groups with my P35-177 late this afternoon. Wind was very light and temperature was 63 F. 1st group was significantly bigger than when I last shot this gun so I started turning the hammer spring down about 1/8th of a turn at a time. Groups got better until I got to 3/8 and 1/2 less hammer spring then they opened up again gradually and I stopped at 7/8th less hammer spring. I went back to 3/4 and then 5/8th less hammer spring and groups got smaller. It was getting dark and I hadn't examined the target yet or I would have gone all the way back to 3/8ths under. The groups at that point were a little over 1/4 inch. I measured velocity this time but did not last time when I shot better groups. It was not changing much, maybe 5 -10 fps. When the group size increased it was not 4 in one hole plus a flier like last time. Shots were more spread out.
I think the optimum hammer spring changes a bit by temperature in this gun. I wonder if others have noticed a need to increase hammer spring force a little at lower temperatures to get the same accuracy.
While it was not fliers this time improving the tune decreased group size eliminating anything resembling a flier. But I did not shoot multiple groups at the same hammer spring setting so conclusions have to be tentative at this point.
I may shoot more groups at a lower outside temperature next. I'd like to see what the temperature does to the velocity and if I need to add hammer spring as I suspect to get the best group size. If groups get better at lower temperature and the velocity is also lower I will probably decrease regulator pressure again by a small amount. I started at about 875 and am down to around 845 now. That was in several steps. Next change if I go down further would probably be 830 or a little more.
I continue to think that if you are shooting a pellet your gun likes, and the gun isn't damaging the pellets and is working well, then tuning helps to minimize group size including minimizing fliers. I'm sure variation in pellets can cause a flier but I don't think it's bent skirts. That has been tested. But variations in weight distribution is totally credible as a source of an occasional "flier". Testing pellets might find some of them but if you use good pellets that also minimizes them, based on my results. I like H&N Baracuda Match (which is what I shoot in my 177) and JSBs using whichever the gun prefers. I had one good tin of Crosman 10.5s but the next two were lousy. I've also shot other brands but they have not been as good as JSB/FX or H&N Baracuda Match (I consider FX to be essentially JSBs but they seem to shoot a little differently and often a little better in my guns).
I think the optimum hammer spring changes a bit by temperature in this gun. I wonder if others have noticed a need to increase hammer spring force a little at lower temperatures to get the same accuracy.
While it was not fliers this time improving the tune decreased group size eliminating anything resembling a flier. But I did not shoot multiple groups at the same hammer spring setting so conclusions have to be tentative at this point.
I may shoot more groups at a lower outside temperature next. I'd like to see what the temperature does to the velocity and if I need to add hammer spring as I suspect to get the best group size. If groups get better at lower temperature and the velocity is also lower I will probably decrease regulator pressure again by a small amount. I started at about 875 and am down to around 845 now. That was in several steps. Next change if I go down further would probably be 830 or a little more.
I continue to think that if you are shooting a pellet your gun likes, and the gun isn't damaging the pellets and is working well, then tuning helps to minimize group size including minimizing fliers. I'm sure variation in pellets can cause a flier but I don't think it's bent skirts. That has been tested. But variations in weight distribution is totally credible as a source of an occasional "flier". Testing pellets might find some of them but if you use good pellets that also minimizes them, based on my results. I like H&N Baracuda Match (which is what I shoot in my 177) and JSBs using whichever the gun prefers. I had one good tin of Crosman 10.5s but the next two were lousy. I've also shot other brands but they have not been as good as JSB/FX or H&N Baracuda Match (I consider FX to be essentially JSBs but they seem to shoot a little differently and often a little better in my guns).
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I’m very inexperienced with bench-rested shooting and don’t really like it. However, winter weather made me desperate enough to do some indoors today, with the pistol. As expected, group size was smaller with either hand, and there were no flyers. No wind, no glare, comfortable indoor temperature, support from a sand bag, and control over lighting.
If there had been bad shots I would consider those Just Me. If there had been terrible shots, I would definitely blame the pellet for that. With external variables limited and human variables easier to control than when shooting offhand OR outdoors, there would not be much else to blame except my own old eyes, and those I can tell when they aren’t working well.
So, while I might not enjoy shooting paper targets indoors bench rested at short distance, it does show that the gun itself is excellent. The pellets were fine, too. It sure beats not practicing at all!!!!!
I plan to do the same with the rifle later this week.
If there had been bad shots I would consider those Just Me. If there had been terrible shots, I would definitely blame the pellet for that. With external variables limited and human variables easier to control than when shooting offhand OR outdoors, there would not be much else to blame except my own old eyes, and those I can tell when they aren’t working well.
So, while I might not enjoy shooting paper targets indoors bench rested at short distance, it does show that the gun itself is excellent. The pellets were fine, too. It sure beats not practicing at all!!!!!
I plan to do the same with the rifle later this week.
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One thing that hasn’t been addressed is barrel cleaning.
You have to start with a clean barrel (not just pulling 2 dry patches through your gun), start with a good cleaning product and very tight patches. If you see any shiny strands on the patch “that’s lead” you just can’t pull patches through your barrel until you see no more dark patches.
Once you have a baseline of knowing when the barrel is clean, start shooting one brand of pellets preferably same lot of that pellet get a baseline with those (shoot till groups open up clean barrel thoroughly and shoot again) this process has to be used consistently with each brand or lot of pellets.
You really need to understand when the barrel needs to be cleaned and how often with that brand or lot of pellets.
This is just the beginning of understanding your gun, barrel and what pellets (Lot and brand) that give you less flyers.
Then you move on to the other factors that come into play, many already mentioned in this thread.
It really comes down to how much time you’re willing to spend and if you’re competing or shooting for pleasure. It’s a long journey to fully understand why you maybe getting flyer’s ( or if they are really flyers? ) remember I’m only addressing one factor in this journey!.
You have to start with a clean barrel (not just pulling 2 dry patches through your gun), start with a good cleaning product and very tight patches. If you see any shiny strands on the patch “that’s lead” you just can’t pull patches through your barrel until you see no more dark patches.
Once you have a baseline of knowing when the barrel is clean, start shooting one brand of pellets preferably same lot of that pellet get a baseline with those (shoot till groups open up clean barrel thoroughly and shoot again) this process has to be used consistently with each brand or lot of pellets.
You really need to understand when the barrel needs to be cleaned and how often with that brand or lot of pellets.
This is just the beginning of understanding your gun, barrel and what pellets (Lot and brand) that give you less flyers.
Then you move on to the other factors that come into play, many already mentioned in this thread.
It really comes down to how much time you’re willing to spend and if you’re competing or shooting for pleasure. It’s a long journey to fully understand why you maybe getting flyer’s ( or if they are really flyers? ) remember I’m only addressing one factor in this journey!.
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For over a year I tried many wooddoo tricks to fix the MRD's .... I can call it decent performer up to 50 meters or 70 maybe, but what is really p*ssing the 100 meters I never could make it to my liking.
Weight sorting, head sorting, rolling, re-sizing, polishing the skirts ... I almost reworked the entire diablo and reworked the Impact MK2, and that darn thing just won't do it at 100.
It feels like the CofG or the entire shape design is way off. For this same reason I am staying away from purchasing any custom pellet mold... every decent machine shop can fabricate these molds or swagging dies, but to validate the design is the "thing"...
Unfortunately I have no indoor range that 100M distance, but I am ready to bet that a 15gn or 18gn HN would do better job if no air elements to mess with.
Also, around my place I could not collect people to build up some competition group, but I am scoring and competing against myself if you can imagine that.
Weight sorting, head sorting, rolling, re-sizing, polishing the skirts ... I almost reworked the entire diablo and reworked the Impact MK2, and that darn thing just won't do it at 100.
It feels like the CofG or the entire shape design is way off. For this same reason I am staying away from purchasing any custom pellet mold... every decent machine shop can fabricate these molds or swagging dies, but to validate the design is the "thing"...
Unfortunately I have no indoor range that 100M distance, but I am ready to bet that a 15gn or 18gn HN would do better job if no air elements to mess with.
Also, around my place I could not collect people to build up some competition group, but I am scoring and competing against myself if you can imagine that.
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A barrel being dirty can affect accuracy but I clean less than I used to. I used to clean nearly every time I shot a bigger group. That didn't do anything for me. The barrel being dirty was not the cause of the inaccuracy.
I shot again this morning with the temperature in the low 40s. That did not address velocity at all versus low 60s where I shot last time. The velocity was actually a few fps higher. It was raining on and off so I only shot 3 groups. Velocity seemed to be best where I found it best yesterday afternoon. Groups were just OK. So I'll try a lower regulator setting.
I shot again this morning with the temperature in the low 40s. That did not address velocity at all versus low 60s where I shot last time. The velocity was actually a few fps higher. It was raining on and off so I only shot 3 groups. Velocity seemed to be best where I found it best yesterday afternoon. Groups were just OK. So I'll try a lower regulator setting.
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What I struggle with is that the pellets that do group, group well....well enough for me, at least. Usually, I see a ragged hole at 30yds + 1 shot not touching the group at all. I may check around the magazines, see if the pattern is in the shot number. I have 4 mags, so I should be able to produce big enough sample size to get some conclusive results. Hopefully, this weekend.
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I’m not sure I understand your quote? But pellet flyers do exist, but as you know it’s a process of elimination so I start with understanding my barrels wants and needs. I’m not saying anything you don’t already know, you’ve shot In a lot more Comp’s than me also with a a greater variety of guns. If you we’re just being facetious than I get it!
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Was just trying to point out for other members that you weren't saying (unlike a few that post on AGN) that it's not ALWAYS the barrel, and that in fact pellets can cause flyers, even after inspection and weighing... I agree, take off the moderator, give it a shot, shoot single shot without the magazine, give it a shot, ensure the barrel is PROPERLY cleaned, give it a shot. But even after all of that, with the RDMs at least, you'll get flyers. I don't personally know any guns that haven't had the occasional flyer at 100Y despite all of the previous preparation stated.I’m not sure I understand your quote? But pellet flyers do exist, but as you know it’s a process of elimination so I start with understanding my barrels wants and needs. I’m not saying anything you don’t already know, you’ve shot In a lot more Comp’s than me also with a a greater variety of guns. If you we’re just being facetious than I get it!
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To see if weigh matters take a fresh tin and shoot 30 shots over the crono. Then weigh 30 pellets to .1 grain and shoot over crono and ill bet anyone a buck that the sorted pellets have a lower sd. Some times a large difference and if its a large difference at the end of the barrel imagine what it will be @ 100 yds!
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I don't know about sd but I've tried weight and head size sorting pellets and I couldn't see a difference in the accuracy. That's why I think that pellets are not normally the issue if you use well made pellets. I shot my one 200 on the 30 yard challenge with pellets straight out of the tin. I shot 3 199s the same way. There might be an occasional "bad pellet" in the tins but it must be pretty rare to get these kind of results.
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I don't think the wight difference of +/- 0.5 gn plays as bad as a friction difference = head size running on Lands.
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