Do we really have to keep beating this dead horse? If you want fair and accommodating FT, then shoot Extreme FT... Or Benchrest! 
My pronouns are Go and F-urself
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Forced Kneeling
- Thread starter AirNGasman
- Start date
Speaking of EFT and beating on this horse, I detect a heartbeat; a respected, long time FT competitor (an intelligence & reasonable guy) mentioned to me a good compromise or at least I thought so:
If you cannot kneel to shoot that lane, those folks could use a bipod standing like EFT handles their standing lanes. Again, I thought that was a good idea. Get the defibrillator, let’s zap
️ this horse 
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If you cannot kneel to shoot that lane, those folks could use a bipod standing like EFT handles their standing lanes. Again, I thought that was a good idea. Get the defibrillator, let’s zap
️ this horse . Last edited:
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Speaking of EFT and beating on this horse, I detect a heartbeat; a respected, long time FT competitor (an intelligence & reasonable guy) mentioned to me a good compromise or at least I thought so:
If you cannot kneel to shoot that lane, those folks could use a bipod standing like EFT handles their standing lanes. Again, I thought that was a good idea. Get the defibrillator, let’s zap
As someone who knows of who you speak ALL TOO WELL, as feels anyone that knows him well at all would no doubt agree, I can tell you the only reason that yahoo still has a heartbeat to detect is thanks to his long history of electro-shock therapy. In my opinion that was the wrong approach; they should have just lobotomized the guy from the get-go! Would have saved us all untold amounts of aggravation.
Don't know where you get the idea he's intelligent, MUCH LESS RESPECTED. He's a whiney weasel!
Also don't know where you get the idea to allow FT competitors unable to kneel to shoot Kneeling shots offhand is a good idea. BTW, aforementioned whiney weasel stole that idea from me... before I was convinced in this thread by open-minded superiors that it's a better idea for AAFTA to lose shooters than accommodate their aging pool of participants.
Attempts to zap the dead horse of who you speak will only short-circuit the defibrillator... Just as it has the more viciously vociferous contributors to this thread.
FWIW, as I understand it, the dead horse ain't goin' nowhere!
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As in stating Your a sick & twisted individual
If the case .. not alone and send it right back .. lol
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I’d rather the weasels didn’t come over and try to mess up benchrest too.
You'll go to hell for calling whiney, gimpy, old farts 'weasels', Mike!
But thanks for the suggestion; I might just do that.
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As in stating Your a sick & twisted individual
If the case .. not alone and send it right back .. lol
If it isn't obvious (yet), I wear "sick and twisted" as a badge of honor.
Thanks for the accolades Scott.I still maintain you're my long-lost evil twin.
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I say blah on that @zx10wall. I find standing with a bipod easier than kneeling, for my matches that is a no go.Speaking of EFT and beating on this horse, I detect a heartbeat; a respected, long time FT competitor (an intelligence & reasonable guy) mentioned to me a good compromise or at least I thought so:
If you cannot kneel to shoot that lane, those folks could use a bipod standing like EFT handles their standing lanes. Again, I thought that was a good idea. Get the defibrillator, let’s zap
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Have you actually shot a kneeling lane standing with a bipod? If not, It would be interesting to see if one who could handle kneeling would do as good, better or worse at the same targets standing with a bipod. Take an average of 3 runs each and compare. I think you’d be surprised at how similar the results may be.
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Depends on if the bipod in question is one of those janky trigger sticks.
And even though I tried to gracelessly back out of this particular bum fight, I'll weigh in and say that in my opinion, shooting seated without sticks or support more accurately reflects the kneeling-man's struggle than standing with a bipod. I call it "forced mullet style", off-hand on the top, sitting on the bottom.
Watching Ron and Jon shoot 5 out of 6 at a 75 yard target while standing with a bipod is not helping your case. I'm hoping that in Jon's case, it was the gun doing the heavy lifting for the shoot off (if you know what I'm saying, D-Wall, and I think you do).
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Those 2, from what I’ve seen, are both strong standing shooters, with bipod or not. I’d like to see what the average Joe would do comparing kneeler to offhand w/bipod on same lane.
I’m picking up what you’re putting down. That Delta Wooof Jon used definitely was a positive in his great performance
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I'm in the process of attempting to compile circumstantial evidence(s) comparing TFT Standing (with bipod) Lane hit percentages to AAFTA Kneeling Lane percentages. Ideally that would not include the hit percentages of folks shooting Kneeling from offhand; however that might be beyond my capabilities/attention-span/allergy to anything remotely resembling WORK.Those 2, from what I’ve seen, are both strong standing shooters, with bipod or not. I’d like to see what the average Joe would do comparing kneeler to offhand w/bipod on same lane.
I’m picking up what you’re putting down. That Delta Wooof Jon used definitely was a positive in his great performance
This might be a good time to solicit data and opinions from shooters EXPERIENCED at shooting Standing Lanes (with bipod) and Kneeling Lanes (from kneeling OR offhand; please specify which). Shooters with no experience in both forced positions need not comment. (Like THAT will happen!
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Haven't gotten enough opinions yet?!?! Lol.
My opinion = standing bipod is substantially less challenging than kneeling, even for somebody not claiming a handicap.
And yes, I've shot both, during and outside of competition.
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You missed some standing bipod shots at the last EBR. You don’t miss kneelers much
Tony saw me miss a bunch of kneelers that day we were after prairie dogs. Lol
And another example was my first sub 20fpe match with the Ghost, scored a 47/48. The miss? A stinking kneeler. (40/40 from bumbag, 4/4 offhand, 3/4 kneeler).
BRK Ghost Review
uma primeiras Brocock tinha o hammer slingshot, creio que essa não seja assim
www.airgunnation.com Forced position shots are hard. And that's okay. Hard = a challenge and a sense of accomplishment when I do well on them. Hard shots should be hard. And it's okay if the hardest shots are the determiners of the match winner. It SHOULD be that way.
Changing the rules to make the hard shots easier isn't the answer.
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My point is, those that experience pain from kneelers should have an equivalent alternative. I think standing with bipod on kneeler lanes is a good alternative being they seem to be of similar difficulty. None of us are getting younger and we’ll all be there one day. Perspective is everything.Tony saw me miss a bunch of kneelers that day we were after prairie dogs. Lol
And another example was my first sub 20fpe match with the Ghost, scored a 47/48. The miss? A stinking kneeler. (40/40 from bumbag, 4/4 offhand, 3/4 kneeler).
BRK Ghost Review
uma primeiras Brocock tinha o hammer slingshot, creio que essa não seja assim
Forced position shots are hard. And that's okay. Hard = a challenge and a sense of accomplishment when I do well on them. Hard shots should be hard. And it's okay if the hardest shots are the determiners of the match winner. It SHOULD be that way.
Changing the rules to make the hard shots easier isn't the answer.
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I understand the situation, it's essentially one of justice versus mercy.
On the justice side, fair is fair. If that's the rule then everyone abides. Simple as that.
On the mercy side, Ron and his argument that people in pain when kneeling should get a pass.
The issue is that both can't be satisfied. How do we determine who gets to shoot from standing bipod? Those above a certain age? Or anyone claiming pain? Cuz I can cite my ACL repaired knee causing me pain when I kneel, yet I'm certainly on the younger end of the age spectrum of field target competitors. So then is that "fair"? That I'm 40 but I get to shoot the kneelers as the easier standing bipod shots.
It's a conundrum for sure.
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Rather than the same targets be shot in both positions, put out a pair of targets just for the standing bipod shooters (in the same lane if you like) but (maybe?) make the Troyer for “that” lane equal to non forced positions or IMO, a slightly higher Troyer (+3-5)
(Example: 3/4” KZ @ 30y 1” @40y)
Or, or those that elect not to kneel, have them shoot off of a monopod. Talk about wobbly. Even worse than those jankey Primos Trigger Sticks.
I would think you want those that can kneel and feel confident about shooting in the kneeling position to default to the kneeling position. A shooter who is a capable kneeling may not gravitate to what they perceive as (maybe) a more challenging (thus possibly missing) one or two of KZ’s by choosing the standing braced position.
Does a higher Troyer on a standing braced position make it easier for non-kneeling shooters? Not really but they may perceive it easier than trying to get in the kneeling position, attempt to shoot at the target all while wobbling and maybe face plant then, try to get back up on their feet without dropping their gun or having to roll around on the ground thus having to activating their Life Alert ( I’ve fallen and I can’t get up!) to get assistance.
Personally, I can kneel and shoot. The standing bipod shooting position, I don’t find it really much if any harder than the seated position.
(Example: 3/4” KZ @ 30y 1” @40y)
Or, or those that elect not to kneel, have them shoot off of a monopod. Talk about wobbly. Even worse than those jankey Primos Trigger Sticks.
I would think you want those that can kneel and feel confident about shooting in the kneeling position to default to the kneeling position. A shooter who is a capable kneeling may not gravitate to what they perceive as (maybe) a more challenging (thus possibly missing) one or two of KZ’s by choosing the standing braced position.
Does a higher Troyer on a standing braced position make it easier for non-kneeling shooters? Not really but they may perceive it easier than trying to get in the kneeling position, attempt to shoot at the target all while wobbling and maybe face plant then, try to get back up on their feet without dropping their gun or having to roll around on the ground thus having to activating their Life Alert ( I’ve fallen and I can’t get up!) to get assistance.
Personally, I can kneel and shoot. The standing bipod shooting position, I don’t find it really much if any harder than the seated position.
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I just like to shoot and I miss at any position just ask-lol. If I could kneel I would because to me it's more stable cause closer to ground. I can't so I offhand it and move on. Does it bug me I miss some possible points because I shoot offhand, oh well it's life.
Dave on the monopod you can keep it lol. I think I shoot better without it. Monopods to me cause too much unnatural movement of the gun compared to offhand.
Jon
Dave on the monopod you can keep it lol. I think I shoot better without it. Monopods to me cause too much unnatural movement of the gun compared to offhand.
Jon
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"Justice versus mercy".
That's a good one!"How do we determine who gets to shoot from standing bipod?" Easy- anyone that cares to. That way no one can whine about it; much less argue against it. Then it also isn't true that "both can't be satisfied".
YES, also fair that you're a youngster and get to shoot the kneelers as the equal difficulty standing bipod shots (as you've alluded, and demonstrated in competition).
"Don't worry, be happy."
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