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Forced Kneeling

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AirNGasman said:
"Justice versus mercy".🤣 That's a good one!

"How do we determine who gets to shoot from standing bipod?" Easy- anyone that cares to. That way no one can whine about it; much less argue against it. Then it also isn't true that "both can't be satisfied".

YES, also fair that you're a youngster and get to shoot the kneelers as the equal difficulty standing bipod shots (as you've alluded, and demonstrated in competition).

"Don't worry, be happy."😁😁😁
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10 pages of hypothetical so far....

In this could be/would be/should be conversation....IF given the choice, very few people (me included) are going to choose to shoot kneeling if standing bipod is the alternative.

So that would effectively do away with kneelers in field target. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I dunno, but your goal of bringing the difficulty level down would be accomplished.
 
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The underlying theme here is fairness. Paraphrasing here (and correct me if I'm wrong or you don't like how I frame it) but you're saying that current kneeling rules aren't fair to competitors with aging knees (or any number of other possibilities that present a handicap of some sort, claimed or otherwise).

Will aging competitors also say it's not fair for young whippersnappers to get to shoot what should be the kneeling shots from a standing bipod like the more experienced shooters? Because the premise is the same.

The slippery slope of"it's not fair to me" is a tough one. Anybody can make that claim in some way or another.

The nature of any competition is to win while following the rules. Changing the rules to suit SOME of the competitors rubs me the wrong way, even when that subset is probably the majority.

The biggest hurdle you're going to find in your war against kneelers in field target is not me, but rather the WFTFers, which make up the bulk (or all?) of the AAFTA BOG members. Kneelers aren't likely going anywhere in world field target anytime soon. And the WFTF'ers like to have a place to practice in semi-official match setting (AAFTA).
 
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... in the spirit of keeping the sport challenging and fun, add-ons.

You choose to shoot a normal lane from offhand and pick up and additional 0.75 per target, kneeling plus 0.5... or whatever factor.
Shoot the whole match off-hand, maximum score. Shoot the entire match off your bum full score and yet < maximum. Take advantage of easy targets.
 
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Since this thread just keeps going, how about this suggestion for a minor rule change:

"Forced Shooting Positions
The range may be set up to require use of a forced position on designated targets. A sign declaring a forced shooting position must be used at a shooting lane. Regardless of any prescribed position, the shooter may opt to shoot the target offhand (standing). Aids such as straps, harnesses, monopods, shooting sticks, or bipods are not allowed on forced position shots."

It would have no affect on WFTF since they don't have those aids. They do use a shooting jacket but that aid was not included in the forbidden list (not sure why). That rule change would aid Hunter the most since they are otherwise allowed to use sticks, so most Hunter Division shooters already have them. I bet there would still be complaints.
 
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Franklink said:
The underlying theme here is fairness. Paraphrasing here (and correct me if I'm wrong or you don't like how I frame it) but you're saying that current kneeling rules aren't fair to competitors with aging knees (or any number of other possibilities that present a handicap of some sort, claimed or otherwise).

Will aging competitors also say it's not fair for young whippersnappers to get to shoot what should be the kneeling shots from a standing bipod like the more experienced shooters? Because the premise is the same.

The slippery slope of"it's not fair to me" is a tough one. Anybody can make that claim in some way or another.

The nature of any competition is to win while following the rules. Changing the rules to suit SOME of the competitors rubs me the wrong way, even when that subset is probably the majority.

The biggest hurdle you're going to find in your war against kneelers in field target is not me, but rather the WFTFers, which make up the bulk (or all?) of the AAFTA BOG members. Kneelers aren't likely going anywhere in world field target anytime soon. And the WFTF'ers like to have a place to practice in semi-official match setting (AAFTA).
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Thank you for opening more discussion in the directions I hoped to lead you, FL.

To answer your first paragraph, you have it partly correct. I'm saying forced Kneeling amounts to ageism against possibly a majority of FT competitors now; within a few years, a large majority. I'm also saying it might behoove the governors to consider a solution before they are faced with another revolt like a similar one only a few years ago that they seem to have already forgotten. That revolt ended when the BoG grudgingly and belatedly reacted to it with a compromise solution, rather that proactively avoiding growing discontent.

To answer the question in your second paragraph, no. Older folks are, by nature, not as rebellious as youngsters. All I... correction, WE ask is to be able to compete on A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD against youngsters. We seek no advantage(s) over our younger competition, only parity. A forced handicap is an unlevel playing field. Having to shoot 1.5X difficulty multiplier Kneeling lanes from 1.75X difficulty multiplier Offhand position is quantified disparity obvious to anyone willing to admit it. Would you quietly accept such obvious ageism against yourself? Never mind, I'll answer that- NO, you wouldn't! That you so strenuously resist fair fights on level playing fields against the physically-compromised speaks volumes. Are you afraid? Never mind; it's obvious.

To address your third paragraph. Yes, anybody can make that claim; true or not. In this case it's obviously, quantifiably true.

Your fourth paragraph. I don't care if a compromise solution to a growing inequity that solves the problem by leveling the playing field for ALL rubs you wrong; you're enjoying an advantage over what you admit is probably a majority, and are unwilling to consider giving up your advantage.

Paragraph five. While it's likely true the majority of the BoG may be WFTF shooters, and it's probably also be true the BoG might be the biggest hurdle in this debate for fairness and against ageism in AAFTA field target, WFTF shooters would be totally unaffected by my proposed compromise. They shoot WFTF to improve their WFTF skills and game, so would continue shooting forced Kneeling as they always have. I've never advocated replacing forced Kneeling; simply allowing an equal-difficulty OPTION for those that prefer it. My compromise solution changes nothing whatsoever for WFTF shooters, or anyone else preferring to shoot forced Kneeling from kneeling. Although I've made that obvious from the get-go in this thread, apparently it bears pointing out again.
 
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When you were 40, there were probably some 70 years olds shooting field target. I assume kneeling was part of the game back then (?)......it still is now.

When I'm 70, there will be 40 year olds. The sands of time.

As for the other part of your retort, you are CHOOSING to shoot the kneelers in the harder offhand position. What you're saying is no different than if I said it hurts my back to sit on a stool or bumbag so I choose to shoot the whole match offhand so that my back doesn't need to bend. So since I'm CHOOSING to shoot the whole course offhand, I should get to use 50 foot pounds (ie an exception to the rules, even though I'm willingly making it harder on myself by choosing to shoot from the most difficult position.)

Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

And old guys aren't as rebellious!??! Lol, who is trying to get the rules changed here?

The reason I've continued this long isn't because I'm wanting to keep my advantage, but rather because I'm floored at the absurdity of your proposal. You and I both know a guy who won nationals in Open class a few years ago. He chose to use no harness, no hamster, not even a scope with a side wheel. His shooting position from Open is on the typical bumbag, legs bent, elbow on knee, gun rested in elbow. I believe he would have been 67-68? when he did that in 2018?. He shot the kneelers as such, and the offhand shots as such. In short, he followed the rules. You dont see him petitioning for an exception due to his age.

We had a frequent ft competitor just bow out in the last two years, he was 85+ I believe. He wasn't trying to get rules changed either.

Yes, I'm 40. That also means I work 50+ hrs every week. I have four kids under the age of 14. My morning today? Get the kids ready and delivered to school. Come home and get the house cleaned up. Sweet! 35 minute window of time for practice! Got out the gun i'm probably going to use for this weekends match and PRACTICED. Shot fro 10-22 and 55, 50, 45, 40 from bucket and stool. And also PRACTICED kneeled and offhand shots. Put the stuff away, jump in the shower, drive to work, where I'll be from 11am to 9pm tonight.

You're crying ageism at a stage of your life when you have more time available to practice in a single day than I'll get all week. It hurts? Okay, go see a physical therapist or watch some YouTube on exercises to increase flexibility of the knee and/reduce knee pain.

The grass is always greener.....
 
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"And old guys aren't as rebellious!??! Lol, who is trying to get the rules changed here?"

I AM.

I'm an exception... in many ways. This particular exception relates to not being one to overlook wrong, inequity, dishonesty or hypocrisy; or hold my tongue about them (all my life).:censored: Unlike most my age, I haven't outgrown the bumper sticker I displayed on my 1970 Chevy Nova reading "Question authority", or the one I flew when you were a child reading "Impeach Clinton" (even before he was inaugurated). Both examples suggest a rebellious nature I've not outgrown. But given historical developments since those rebellious-youth statements, also uncommon/EXCEPTION(al) insight and foresight. For instance-

Anyone not questioning any and ALL authority(s) a half-century after I recommended doing so lives in a world of fantasy, delusion and denial of Reality(s). Perhaps had more people taken my advice in the ensuing half-century we wouldn't have the universal lack of confidence in the American systems we now have. Not enough Americans question authority, to their own detriments.

Clinton was impeached five years after I predicted it... after he awarded China Most Favored Trade Status in foolish hopes Communists would appreciate being welcomed into civilized society. How'd that work out for civilized society? No question; to civilized societies' detriments. I knew Clinton was a worm years before he was (literally and figuratively) 'exposed'.🤣

I believe it's usually a bad idea to swim against a rising tide of growing majority. I also believe some folks capable of greater insight(s) than others, and that's often related to age. In fact, almost always. History supports my opinions with many examples more than those above.

"History repeats itself." Those ignorant of history, or choosing to ignore the hard lessons of history, are bound to repeat them.

That truism can be easily avoided. Unfortunately relatively few possess the insight and foresight to do so. On second thought, maybe not easily, after all.:unsure:
 
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AirNGasman said:
"And old guys aren't as rebellious!??! Lol, who is trying to get the rules changed here?"

I AM.

I'm an exception... in many ways. This particular exception relates to not being one to overlook wrong, inequity, dishonesty or hypocrisy; or hold my tongue about them (all my life).:censored: Unlike most my age, I haven't outgrown the bumper sticker I displayed on my 1970 Chevy Nova reading "Question authority", or the one I flew when you were a child reading "Impeach Clinton" (even before he was inaugurated). Both examples suggest a rebellious nature I've not outgrown. But given historical developments since those rebellious-youth statements, also uncommon/EXCEPTION(al) insight and foresight. For instance-

Anyone not questioning any and ALL authority(s) a half-century after I recommended doing so lives in a world of fantasy, delusion and denial of Reality(s). Perhaps had more people taken my advice in the ensuing half-century we wouldn't have the universal lack of confidence in the American systems we now have. Not enough Americans question authority, to their own detriments.

Clinton was impeached five years after I predicted it... after he awarded China Most Favored Trade Status in foolish hopes Communists would appreciate being welcomed into civilized society. How'd that work out for civilized society? No question; to civilized societies' detriments. I knew Clinton was a worm years before he was (literally and figuratively) 'exposed'.🤣

I believe it's usually a bad idea to swim against a rising tide of growing majority. I also believe some folks capable of greater insight(s) than others, and that's often related to age. In fact, almost always. History supports my opinions with many examples more than those above.

"History repeats itself." Those ignorant of history, or choosing to ignore the hard lessons of history, are bound to repeat them.

That truism can be easily avoided. Unfortunately relatively few possess the insight and foresight to do so. On second thought, maybe not easily, after all.:unsure:
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Truth to Power Ron, preach it brother!
 
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Scotchmo said:
AirNGasman,

I have little sympathy when someone proposes rule changes which are self-serving in nature.

There are lots of other shooting sport disciplines. We can participate in the ones that suit us.
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I neither ask nor seek sympathy, Scott; but thanks anyway. Call it self-serving if you like (again, and again); but self-serving or not, I (also) consider it speaking for a growing majority.

I do participate in other shooting sport disciplines that suit me. But long as I still win even with the Kneeling handicap I'll continue to participate in my favorite shooting sport of FT. I'm not easily deterred from it. Might even do so if I can only podium with the Kneeling handicap. Perhaps by then the Kneeling disparity will be gone. If not, I'll reassess then.

Thanks again for the well-meaning advice Bud.
 
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Centercut said:
Truth to Power Ron, preach it brother!
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Speaking of truth Mike, truth is (true confessions) I never paid enough attention to 'truth to power' to analyze exactly what that means. Being naturally lazy in the extreme, I often procrastinate things I shouldn't until which time I shouldn't anymore.

Thanks for the compliment. BTW, I appreciate all you do for EFT (and me).(y)
 
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Just learn the stance and shoot offhand. Back in the early days, I had issues that didn't allow kneeling shots, so I learned to shoot offhand. After a years worth of practice I became a pretty good offhander, far better than kneeling. Problem solved ! Shooters spend a good year or more getting setup to be a good FT competitor, gun, scope, pellet choices etc...why not standing ?? Once you learn to shoot well offhand....your other shooting will also improve !! Have coached folks for years and all that became good offhanders also saw marked improvement in all shooting disaplines.
 
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AirNGasman said:
I neither ask nor seek sympathy, Scott; but thanks anyway. Call it self-serving if you like (again, and again); but self-serving or not, I (also) consider it speaking for a growing majority.

I do participate in other shooting sport disciplines that suit me. But long as I still win even with the Kneeling handicap I'll continue to participate in my favorite shooting sport of FT. I'm not easily deterred from it. Might even do so if I can only podium with the Kneeling handicap. Perhaps by then the Kneeling disparity will be gone. If not, I'll reassess then.

Thanks again for the well-meaning advice Bud.
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Well, now there’s EFT in some locations.

No kneeling lanes. So should be no complaints about aging knees.

No requirement to range targets by focusing, so not so much a problem for aging eyes.

And everybody shoots from a bucket and sticks, so no need to be limber.

And no offhand lanes.

Sounds like a good discipline to age into.
 
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I’ve been following this thread with interest and I’d like to input a recent (yesterday) observation.
And as a person who is getting older, I find the forced positions becoming more challenging. And by challenging I don’t mean I miss more KZ’s. I still run the same percentages of hits I did five years ago and maybe even make a few more from time to time than before but, challenging of a more physical nature.
I truly enjoy shooting FT. The outdoors, the camaraderie, the sport of it all (PLEASE do not call FT a game. That’s what children play. But I will digress on that point as I have read many of the commenting members various posts elsewhere on the forum)
I’m nowhere near a “professional marksman”. My entire rig cost less than most of you have in you optics alone. Not that I can’t afford a more expensive setup but two more KZ’s for me ain’t worth another fifteen hundred…
Back to my observation…
After our club match yesterday I ask the MD if I could go back to the kneeling lane and attempt to shoot the targets again but standing using a bipod. He agreed as long as there wasn’t anyone down range. During the match, I shot 3/4 in kneeling. (I have no idea what the Troyer was for that lane but the match results and Troyer will be posted soon if you have the need to know.)
Standing with sticks, I managed to hit five out of eight (5/8) times, a slightly lower average than kneeling during the match. When I went to the line to do this experiment, I honestly thought I was going to go 8 for 8 or at least 7 for 8. I find the standing in EFT fairly easy but wasn’t the case yesterday. And one of the reasons I wanted to do this was, the club has members (almost a third yesterday) that is challenged in getting up from a kneeling position. I don’t want to see folks discouraged from shooting handicapped because they are themselves handicapped. We need all the shooters we can get. And shooting standing with sticks in lieu of kneeling didn’t give me an advantage it seems.
So my takeaway from this experiment is, if a rule change is going to be made, it needs to tested multiple times by multiple people. Don’t arbitrarily change it to be changing it. Because once you do, the genie is out of the bottle and it hard to put it back but if you do, make sure the genie is in favor of all parties involved and an advantage isn’t taken nor given.
 
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D
thomasair said:
Dave….Getting 5/8 doing something you’ve never done before seems pretty good. Would be interesting to see how you would do after the same amount of time you’ve been kneeling.

Mike
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Dave has experience shooting Standing with sticks in competitions, so he isn't speculating. You?
 
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